7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Fade9wayz]

Mordigan wrote...

Charsen wrote...

It's a story where the player is the main character. If someone thinks the main character should be involved in a romance with X NPC, why is it such a big deal to you? Why do you feel the need to say how someone else's story should play out? 

Who said I care how someone's story plays out?  And btw, it's not as though there are unlimited options in Mass Effect regarding how you can play your character.

The script writers are the ones that truly determine the direction of the story, and in ME2, those very same writers didn't make any of the crew (except Kelly and she'll screw anything with a pulse) bisexual.

Rational people understand and accept this truth, but there are always a few self centered folks that want to impose their desires on everyone else, regardless of how it affects the story or the setting..

SimontheFrog is a perfect example of said self centered folks.

There is no need for personal attacks, please refrain from such behaviours since it would only invite other people to do the same to you, which, unless I am mistaken, you wouldn't appreciate. Dissing someone is hardly a constructive way to argue something.

As far as the thread is going, no one has asked for every squaddies to be bisexual or want to impose their desires on anyone. We are just letting it be known that, as far as romances are concerned, same-sex options would be welcomed by some and wouldn't bother many others whatsoever. If you read the FAQ, you certainly noticed that ways to implement such a feature without 'imposing' it on less open-minded people were also discussed.

edit for forgetting a word in there ^^

Modifié par Fade9wayz, 09 mars 2010 - 09:45 .

[Lightice_av]

The script writers are the ones that truly determine the direction of the story, and in ME2, those very same writers didn't make any of the crew (except Kelly and she'll screw anything with a pulse) bisexual.

You make two faulty assumptions here. First, the scriptwriters don't call the shots. The executives and directors do. They go to the scriptwriters, tell what they want, and the writers comply. If they don't like something, they tell the writers to erase it and start over.
Second, you assume that the scriptwriters didn't want to write characters as bisexuals; again, this assumption is faulty based on the knowledge that we do possess. Nearly all the romance dialogue is gender-neutral, like most dialogue in the game, and major parts of it were recorded by both male and female voice actors. If anything, this proves that the writing staff and the sound directors wanted same-sex content to be in the game.

Collider wrote...

If Bioware has to waste resources, waste them on ME3, not retconning
DLC or expansion.

The DLC resources are completely separate from those meant for ME3. They are even made by separate DLC teams supervised by members of the primary Mass Effect team, as not to cut too significantly into their working time with the main project.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 09 mars 2010 - 11:46 .

[Mordigan]

Lightice_av wrote...

You make two faulty assumptions here. First, the scriptwriters don't call the shots. The executives and directors do. They go to the scriptwriters, tell what they want, and the writers comply. If they don't like something, they tell the writers to erase it and start over.

Either way, the point is that it's Bioware thats driving and shaping the story, and not us.  Case in point, Shepard is already predefined to a large extent, and we are very limited in our choices of how to roleplay him/her.

Second, you assume that the scriptwriters didn't want to write characters as bisexuals; again, this assumption is faulty based on the knowledge that we do possess

My assumption is a helluva lot better than yours.  There is only ONE bisexual character, and thats Kelly.

If they wanted more bisexual characters, they would have made them.  You're acting as though Bioware has some problem with implementing S/S romances or material in their games, when it's obvious from past history that they don't..

So if they didn't include more bisexual characters in this game, it's reasonable to assume that it was by choice....and not because they were forced not to include them.

Seriously, you gay pushers have an overinflated view of the importance of S/S romances..  S/S content has always taken a backseat to heterosexual content in Bioware's games.....which is exactly how it should be.

Nearly all the romance dialogue is gender-neutral, like most dialogue in the game, and major parts of it were recorded by both male and female voice actors. If anything, this proves that the writing staff and the sound directors wanted same-sex content to be in the game.

The romance dialogues are gender neutral up to an extent.  Tali has gender specific dialogue with MaleShep, and Jack has gender specific dialogue with FemShep (when she rejects FemShep's advances).  I'm sure most of the others all have gender specific dialogue of some kind as well, but even if they didn't it wouldn't prove your point.

Both FemShep and DudeShep use the exact same dialogue (since they're technically the same character), and the crew members and other NPCs refer to Shepard as "Commander Shepard" or "Shepard" which are gender neutral. 

All that shows is that the writing staff wrote the dialogue in the most efficient and convenient way possible, since using gender neutral dialogue saves both time and resources..

[SimonTheFrog]

Fade9wayz wrote...

Mordigan wrote...

Charsen wrote...

It's a story where the player is the main character. If someone thinks the main character should be involved in a romance with X NPC, why is it such a big deal to you? Why do you feel the need to say how someone else's story should play out? 

Who said I care how someone's story plays out?  And btw, it's not as though there are unlimited options in Mass Effect regarding how you can play your character.

The script writers are the ones that truly determine the direction of the story, and in ME2, those very same writers didn't make any of the crew (except Kelly and she'll screw anything with a pulse) bisexual.

Rational people understand and accept this truth, but there are always a few self centered folks that want to impose their desires on everyone else, regardless of how it affects the story or the setting..

SimontheFrog is a perfect example of said self centered folks.

There is no need for personal attacks, please refrain from such behaviours since it would only invite other people to do the same to you, which, unless I am mistaken, you wouldn't appreciate. Dissing someone is hardly a constructive way to argue something.

As far as the thread is going, no one has asked for every squaddies to be bisexual or want to impose their desires on anyone. We are just letting it be known that, as far as romances are concerned, same-sex options would be welcomed by some and wouldn't bother many others whatsoever. If you read the FAQ, you certainly noticed that ways to implement such a feature without 'imposing' it on less open-minded people were also discussed.

edit for forgetting a word in there ^^

Agreed. 

So, anyway. It's all about options. Noone is imposing anyones desires on somebody else. You play maleShep and only check out the girls on the Normandy, voila. You wouldn't even notice any difference.

How would the story be affected by the gender of the LI's? It's a subplot that does NOT affect the story. The NPC's are intertwined, sure. But that doesn't affect the LI subplot. (For example i p.o.'ed Jack in one playthrough and she really hated me, but was still loyal in the final mission... that was a bit strange hehe)

The truth is, that characters are tools, created by the designers to communicate emotions, information and to let the PC interact with the environment. And yes, if they behave more realistically, than the immersion is greater. But when i play femShep and Tali basically flirts with me, leaves me longing messages in log files, says I'm the only one that she would ever trust for suit linking (while blushing as she talks about it), than it IS realistic that she might have a crush on femShep. And it also could be realistic for Miranda to have a crush on femShep. And it could be realistic for Kaidan to have a crush on dudeShep. 

And no, the crew of the Normandy is NOT a realistic percentage of the population. And it shouldn't be. It's a story about a hero/heroine and his/her fellow warriors, assassins, mercs, biotics, techs, scientists.... you cannot, and you should not, just tell me that they gotta be realistic about social strati in this hand picked crew. If they would have a higher percentage of bisexuals be present in the crew, than it would be laughable to argue that the percentage is slightly higher than in any group of random humans and therefore the immersion is gone.

Personally, i would like all romancable crewmates to be interested no matter what gender i pick in the beginning, btw. But i would not demand this to happen. It's just because i dont care about sexual orientation that much. It's not important for me in real life and not in fantasy either (i could explain in detail why and what, but i rather skip this )
This leads to another problem. What i rather think is, that TOO MANY people are flirting with Shepard already. Not so much with femShep, but i had this one day with dudeShep where i went to Illium, it started with flirty Kelly who told me she noticed how Tali looks at me. Then i went to Illium, being kissed by Liara, Parsini, Shiala, getting dirty talk from the bartender.. that's all before the real LI's start. I was like... "what?! get off me people, i'm on duty forchrissake...". It certainly took out the specialty of "finding" someone to kiss in the game.
I would like the LI's to be more complex, difficult to gain. I havent played DA:O enough to know it, but i head good stuff how it's handled there. And i'd also like that once you started talking intimatly with one, all the others might never start the LI-talk at all. I think it's far more immersion breaking to able to talk romantically to 5 crewmembers (plus the picture of your ME1-LI on your desk) instead of maybe 2 like in ME1. I mean, how are the odds that among the assassins and mercs and scientists are suddenly so many that are willing to date in the first place? And no one screams "UNLIKELY" here.

Bottom line: the university LOOOVES diversity. There's something we have in common...

[Lightice_av]

So if they didn't include more bisexual characters in this game, it's reasonable to assume that it was by choice....and not because they were forced not to include them.

The possibilities are too numerous to account, and they all have been pondered thoroughly on this thread. From possible legal troubles with the actor who loaned his face for default MShep to time constraints to marketing issues. The list is endless. The closest thing we have to a Bioware confirmation is this post from the old forums, which indicates that they didn't have the time to add the option, though whether or not it's the whole truth is anybody's guess. The bottom line is that you are no better informed that we are, and by no means more knowledgeable or objectively closer to the truth.

The romance dialogues are gender neutral up to an extent. Tali has gender specific dialogue with MaleShep, and Jack has gender specific dialogue with FemShep (when she rejects FemShep's advances).

Grand majority of the dialogue, including the romance dialogue is gender neutral, and the disks contain remains of same-sex romance dialogue - this is a fact. Hence the implications are that the writers wanted to keep the window open for the option, but did not ultimately implement it for whatever reason; again, time constraints is the only official answer that we have.

[BrianWilly]

Mordigan wrote...

Case in point, Shepard is already predefined to a large extent, and we are very limited in our choices of how to roleplay him/her.

Irrelevent; in the case of romance, Shepard is completely undefined.  He or she has upwards of a dozen romantic paths to pursue, including homosexual ones if she is female.

Again, please refer to the FAQ for more information.

Mordigan wrote...

My assumption is a helluva lot better than yours.  There is only ONE bisexual character, and thats Kelly.

Incorrect; Samara and Morinth are both bisexual (obviously, as their entire race is by definition bisexual) and have homosexual moments with a female Shepard.  And of course Liara is back from the first game.  It's obvious that Bioware did not want to neglect that fanbase.

Mordigan wrote...

If they wanted more bisexual characters, they would have made them.  You're acting as though Bioware has some problem with implementing S/S romances or material in their games, when it's obvious from past history that they don't..

The fact that they have in fact included fair representation in the past makes this specific exclusion more conspicuous, not less.

Mordigan wrote...

So if they didn't include more bisexual characters in this game, it's reasonable to assume that it was by choice....and not because they were forced not to include them.

You're arguing in circles, not to mention making a great deal of assumptions and treating them like facts.  I could just as easily state "So if they didn't include more bisexual characters in this game, it's reasonable to assume that they were forced not to include them...and not because it was by choice."

Modifié par BrianWilly, 09 mars 2010 - 05:46 .

[JediMB]

ReconTeam wrote...

You don't ask a man like him if he likes men, and you especially don't ask it like one would ask about the weather.

I don't see why not. Personally I'd just say "no", and go on to sleep with the nugs or something.

Inquiry: would you also be offended if you were asked whether or not you like [skin color that is not your own] girls?

(Oh, yes, I went there.)

ReconTeam wrote...

But in real life there is still some
expectation to keep such business behind closed doors. Or at least here
in the States. I haven't been across the border in some time but I
imagine your typical Canadian male would be offended if another guy hit
on him.

I was flattered, but not interested.

It's
unfortunate that more guys seem to be interested in me than girls, but
I'll take what ego boosts I can get. >_>

[ZMJ10]

.

Inquiry: would you also be offended if you were asked whether or not you like [skin color that is not your own] girls?

(Oh, yes, I went there.)

[quote]

I like all color girls bring it on baby. oh and i support same sex marrige :innocent: .

[Charsen]

The fact of the matter is:

Romance Options by PC Gender/Orientation:

Male (Straight): Ashley, Liara, Kelly, Jack, Tali, Miranda, Morinth(technically)
Female (Straight): Kaidan, Garrus, Thane, Jacob
Female (Lesbian): Liara, Kelly, Morinth(technically)
Male (Gay): NO ONE

+ all the asari strippers. Everywhere.

Yes, you can say Liara and asari are a non-sex race, but get real. They're female. If they looked like Thane they could be considered male or female perhaps, but as they stand they are clearly "female" in voice, appearance, mannerism and attire.

The fact is, gay male romance was specifically excluded while the other variations were all covered. It probably wasn't cut due to a budget consideration, sadly, but deliberately excluded.

Sure, it's not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things - I still played ME1 & 2 and had a good time. My maleshep romanced Liara and then Tali because my character's sexuality doesn't need to match my own. And as gaymers, we are SO USED TO IT. One would like to think that in "the future" when people can sleep with a raptor-alien, a sickly cyborg, an octopus-headed hermaphrodite or a fish-dude, it would be ok for a male human and a male human to do the same.

Modifié par Charsen, 09 mars 2010 - 09:55 .

[didymos1120]

rynluna wrote...

So why do you guys pick our thread and only our thread and say we need to stop complaining?? It baffles me.

It's not that baffling really.  Most (not all, mind all you potentially oversensitive members of the opposition, but most) really just don't like "Teh Ghey" and, even though they almost certainly know better intellectually (or at least, they should), treat it as though it were some sort of communicable disease.  IOW, on some level, due to culture, religion, and/or the other usual suspects, they're afraid they'll get Gay Cooties if exposed to even a hint of male-on-male action (granted, some also dislike the f/f stuff, but they are rare creatures indeed).  It's reacted to as though it were a grave personal insult, or even an actual assault (see: this thread).  And yes, anti-m/m folk, I am aware you have any number of rationalizations for your personal preference in these matters.  I've read and heard 'em all before, and they really do just boil down to "OH NOES! GAY COOTIES! DO NOT WANT!" That is the fundamental emotional reaction upon which all the rest is layered.  Now the question of where and how this all got started is baffling.  But, also way off-topic.

[Allison W]

Suits tell writers (and other artists) to change direction all the time. There is no evidence that the decision to exclude same-sex romances was made by the writers or VAs, and there is evidence to suggest that the responsibility lies with a Suit.

[Lightice_av]

Suits tell writers (and other artists) to change direction all the time. There is no evidence that the decision to exclude same-sex romances was made by the writers or VAs, and there is evidence to suggest that the responsibility lies with a Suit.

I am not fond of the theories of malevolent interference without something to back it up. It's some of the more unconstructive speculation available. Blaming anonymous "suits" is all well and good, but pointing fingers at the executives of Bioware who have been relatively cooperative with both fan desires and gay community in the past is not likely to lead into positive results.

I hope that leaving the option out was simply due to necessities of setting up priorities, and many facts that we have imply that this is the case.

[Charsen]

I want to believe that it was just a time/budget issue but.... They had time to make the annoying assistant who can feed my fish, but not adjust Kaidan or Thane or whoever to not do a gender check? =/

Modifié par Charsen, 09 mars 2010 - 10:38 .

[Fade9wayz]

Lightice_av wrote...

Suits tell writers (and other artists) to change direction all the time. There is no evidence that the decision to exclude same-sex romances was made by the writers or VAs, and there is evidence to suggest that the responsibility lies with a Suit.

I am not fond of the theories of malevolent interference without something to back it up. It's some of the more unconstructive speculation available. Blaming anonymous "suits" is all well and good, but pointing fingers at the executives of Bioware who have been relatively cooperative with both fan desires and gay community in the past is not likely to lead into positive results.
I hope that leaving the option out was simply due to necessities of setting up priorities, and many facts that we have imply that this is the case.

Exactly. While debating about this is rather edifying, it is also pointless and is getting redundant. Reasons for this have been speculated over, and counter-speculations have been brought up. I doubt any  Bioware employee, outside of the official public relations channel, will come over and give us any answer since they are most certainly under some non-disclosure contract. I don't know about you, but if I worked for Bioware, I would'nt think it is worth losing my job over.

What is important in all this is that we feel a same-sex romance is not out of place in the ME universe, would not hurt sales (as long as the game remains somewhat of a RPG) and that it would be fair that one is allowed for dudeShep also. Note that it is a suggestion, not an exigence. If Bioware agree with us, the way they go about it is also their decision. Possible solutions were brought up here, which they are free to use or dismiss.

edit for typo

Modifié par Fade9wayz, 09 mars 2010 - 10:41 .

[Allison W]

Lightice_av wrote...

Suits tell writers (and other artists) to change direction all the time. There is no evidence that the decision to exclude same-sex romances was made by the writers or VAs, and there is evidence to suggest that the responsibility lies with a Suit.

I am not fond of the theories of malevolent interference without something to back it up. It's some of the more unconstructive speculation available. Blaming anonymous "suits" is all well and good, but pointing fingers at the executives of Bioware who have been relatively cooperative with both fan desires and gay community in the past is not likely to lead into positive results.
I hope that leaving the option out was simply due to necessities of setting up priorities, and many facts that we have imply that this is the case.

I can't help but think if it were true that they simply didn't budget zots for it (which would still be upsetting considering some of the things that did get zots), they would have been better off to say so rather than make up the bizarre political stories they did. And I'm not even saying it's multiple executives--quite possibly just one. Certainly BioWare usually is very good about this issue, and that is why this sticks out like a sore thumb.

Belatedly, however, I will say you're right to call me out on my snippy tone. My apologies.

Modifié par Allison W, 09 mars 2010 - 11:03 .

[JediMB]

Fade9wayz wrote...

Bioware employee, outside of the official public relations channel, will come over and give us any answer since they are most certainly under some non-disclosure contract.

I feel tempted to quote a wise man:

"Only an idiot believes the official story."

(MaleShep-Joker romance for ME3!)

[Tom Adama]

I don't think homosexual males make good Spectres/Soldiers/Tacticians, or at least I wouldn't take them seriously nor would any male in the squad...

Lesbian Shepard makes a little more sense than a gay Shepard, but then again, you CAN have a lesbian Shepard if you want in both ME1 and 2.

As a side note, I "love" how people are starting to think that homosexuality is a progressive social fad. Seeing as how overpopulation is becoming a big problem, the fewer people that mate the better for Earth as a whole. Fewer people means higher sustainability for others!

You want to talk ecofriendly, turn people into homosexuals; at least you will save the environment by bringing less consumers into the world to screw up the planet anymore...

Note: I am sick and tired of having homosexuality shoved down my throat in the media/news etc. Leave me alone and I will leave you alone, regardless of my real feelings towards the behaviour. I try not to judge others and let people live their own lives, don't force this "fad" down my throat because I am passively tolerant on these individuals. 

Modifié par Tom Adama, 09 mars 2010 - 11:20 .

[Lightice_av]

Allison W wrote

Certainly BioWare usually is very good about this issue, and that is why this sticks out like a sore thumb.

Quite true, which is the main reason why I'm here in the first place .Conspiracy theories aren't really helpful, however. All we got is that post Arik and later I linked a while back from a Bioware employee who claimed that the lack of time and lack of perceived interest were the main reasons behind the omission for the first game. Whether or not it's the whole truth we can't tell, but the existence of this entire thread is based on the assumption that showing interest will result in attention, as was the case with the Tali & Garrus crowd.

Tom Adama wrote...



I don't think homosexual males make good Spectres/Soldiers/Tacticians, or at least I wouldn't take them seriously nor would any male in the squad...

With that name you may want to watch out for certain Sam Adama and his tendency to murder people who annoy him.

In other news, obvious troll is obvious.

[Fade9wayz]

JediMB wrote...

Fade9wayz wrote...

Bioware employee, outside of the official public relations channel, will come over and give us any answer since they are most certainly under some non-disclosure contract.

I feel tempted to quote a wise man:

"Only an idiot believes the official story."

(MaleShep-Joker romance for ME3!)

Which is exactly why this makes such speculations pointless without new reliable data, besides the fact that, sometimes, even when someone says the entire and utter truth, some people will not be satisfied if it doesn't agree with their opinions of what truth should be.

[Arik7]

Charsen wrote...
Romance Options by PC Gender/Orientation:

Male (Straight): Ashley, Liara, Kelly, Jack, Tali, Miranda, Morinth(technically)
Female (Straight): Kaidan, Garrus, Thane, Jacob
Female (Lesbian): Liara, Kelly, Morinth(technically)
Male (Gay): NO ONE
 

[Collider]

[quote]Lightice_av wrote...
If Bioware has to waste resources, waste them on ME3, not retconning
DLC or expansion.[/quote]
The DLC resources are completely separate from those meant for ME3. They are even made by separate DLC teams supervised by members of the primary Mass Effect team, as not to cut too significantly into their working time with the main project.
[/quote]
Right, because money isn't a resource. And time isn't one either.

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...
They go to the scriptwriters, tell what they want, and the writers comply.

If anything, this proves that the writing staff and the sound directors wanted same-sex content to be in the game.

????

You should read both of those quotes.

[Collider]

Allison W wrote...
and there is evidence to suggest that the responsibility lies with a Suit.

Which is? Like lightice, I hate people assuming **** like this. Unless you've actually got evidence for it. The only thing I've seen regarding why M/M (and F/F in the case of Ashley) was that it was cut due to time constraints, and even then that wasn't said with absolute certainty.