7455 réponses à ce sujet

[DaeJi]

Arcian wrote...

I am ALL for same sex romances if BioWare chooses to implement them. But I won't sink to the level where I spend 110 pages moaning and b*tching about it. It's their game. You can make demands, but it doesn't make BioWare obliged to fulfil them.

So what if someone in the dev team is a closet homophobe? It's not going to change, so get over yourselves and do something more constructive with your time instead of flogging the remains of this poor horse. Good god.

Feel free to ignore this thread.

[SimonTheFrog]

Arcian wrote...

I am ALL for same sex romances if BioWare chooses to implement them. But I won't sink to the level where I spend 110 pages moaning and b*tching about it. It's their game. You can make demands, but it doesn't make BioWare obliged to fulfil them.

So what if someone in the dev team is a closet homophobe? It's not going to change, so get over yourselves and do something more constructive with your time instead of flogging the remains of this poor horse. Good god.

BioWare is not obliged. But BioWare needs to hear what customers think about the product and what they think can be improved. We think that m/m and f/f romances improve the game.
That's basically all.

Then in come people telling us to shut up and that gays are disgusting etc. and we have a nice conversation about it. 

If you check the thread and compare it to the squadmate support threads you will see that it's far more constructive and on topic (gameplay, character, story, background etc.) than most other threads. So, please join, it's fun!

[didymos1120]

Mordigan wrote...

As for the disk containing same sex dialogue, I've said it multiple times and I'll say it again.

Both Meer and Hale record ALL dialogue for Shepard (much like the first game), and then it's probably up to programmers to determine what lines get spoken at what point.

Here's the problem: you can say it a million times, and people will still refuse to buy it because it's assertion without evidence.  How do you know this?  What's your source?  I have trouble seeing why they'd spend more money on studio time, voice director time, and voice actor time recording all those superfluous lines if they have no plans to use them.  And who knows how many takes were done for these useless lines.  Because if they knew ahead of time they wouldn't be using them, they not only wouldn't do multiple takes, they wouldn't do one take.

ETA: Also, why even put them in the game data?  It's just wasted disc/drive space.  Typically, stuff that's dummied out in games like that is done so much later in development.  It's easier, faster, and cheaper to just comment stuff out or whatever and put up with the dead code and unused data wasting space than it would be to rewrite large sections of the game.  Plus, you may be able to squeeze it in at the last minute, or finish it by way of DLC.

Modifié par didymos1120, 10 mars 2010 - 03:30 .

[Mordigan]

BrianWilly wrote...
Incorrect; Samara and Morinth are both bisexual (obviously, as their entire race is by definition bisexual) and have homosexual moments with a female Shepard.  And of course Liara is back from the first game.  It's obvious that Bioware did not want to neglect that fanbase.

It would be far more accurate to label Morinth, Samara and other Asari as omnisexual rather than bisexual, since they can mate with literally any sentient creature regardless of species or gender......which is absolutely ridiculous if you ask me.

In truth, the Asari don't even reproduce sexually, but via some advanced form of parthenogenesis. 

[Arik7]

didymos1120 wrote...

Mordigan wrote...

As for the disk containing same sex dialogue, I've said it multiple times and I'll say it again.

Both Meer and Hale record ALL dialogue for Shepard (much like the first game), and then it's probably up to programmers to determine what lines get spoken at what point.

Here's the problem: you can say it a million times, and people will still refuse to buy it because it's assertion without evidence.  How do you know this?  What's your source?  I have trouble seeing why they'd spend more money on studio time, voice director time, and voice actor time recording all those superfluous lines if they have no plans to use them.  And who knows how many takes were done for these useless lines.  Because if they knew ahead of time they wouldn't be using them, they not only wouldn't do multiple takes, they wouldn't do one take.

ETA: Also, why even put them in the game data?  It's just wasted disc/drive space.  Typically, stuff that's dummied out in games like that is done so much later in development.  It's easier, faster, and cheaper to just comment stuff out or whatever and put up with the dead code and unused data wasting space than it would be to rewrite large sections of the game.  Plus, you may be able to squeeze it in at the last minute, or finish it by way of DLC.

Mordigan's statement is also factually incorrent.  Not "ALL" of Hale's dialog is voiced by Meer.   On the ME2 disk, only romance for Thane is voiced by Mark Meer.   None of the lines are present for Jacob or Garrus.  All same-sex romances implemented by BioWare in the past mostly reuse hetero-romance lines, sometimes with 1 or 2 extra lines.

Modifié par Arik7, 10 mars 2010 - 03:39 .

[Mordigan]

Shavon wrote...
LOL, No they don't!  The writers can do whatever they want with characters they've written!  Look at what they've done to Liara, they gave her a dark side.  If they want to open a door for a character to be bi in ME3, such as Kaidan or Tali, they can, and it would work. 

It sounds like you're agreeing with me in a way, since I said that it's up to the writers to determine the character development and plot direction..

With that said, the writers/directors determined that there would be no S/S content in ME2, and yet people are still crying and begging them to make their favorite NPCs bisexual.

Whether the writers listen to them (very doubtful) remains to be seen.. 

[lewis1306]

I wouldn't mind if a gay character came up to maleshep and maleshep declined thier advances.
or, if there was a gay couple in the game.

as long as Shepard is not gay.

also. I would hate to see any character's that were already hetero suddenly become gay.

no gay garruis.
No gay joker, etc...

For me and many others, Seeing a gay maleshep... ANY gay maleshep, would be like seeing a gay Chuck Norris or a gay Bruce lee or a gay Iron man etc... It would just sorta hurt the brand, you know.

Modifié par lewis1306, 10 mars 2010 - 03:48 .

[Mordigan]

Collider wrote...

While there is plenty of care to provide scientific basis for the thngs in Mass Effect, some things are assuredly far fetched...considering the mind melding of the Asari, which has absolutely no precedence in reality so far as I'm aware. The asari in general basically. In that light, we could not really say for certain how likely a sexuality is within an alien race. It is convenient for most of a race to be heterosexual or bisexual though.

I agree with this..  The Asari are one of the few things in Mass Effect that totally contradict reality...

Then again, Bioware themselves admitted the Asari were fanservice..

Modifié par Mordigan, 10 mars 2010 - 03:41 .

[Mordigan]

DaeJi wrote...

My point is is that realism is a poor goal for fantasy works;

 
Mass effect is far more SCIENCE FICTION than fantasy....and Science Fiction must always contain strong elements of realism for it to remain Science fiction.

[Arik7]

lewis1306 wrote...

I wouldn't mind if a gay character came up to maleshep and maleshep declined thier advances.
or, if there was a gay couple in the game.

as long as Shepard is not gay.

also. I would hate to see any character's that were already hetero suddenly become gay.

no gay garruis.
No gay joker, etc...

Yeah, because it must be so important to you how other people play their game.   Their Shepard just HAS to be the same as your Shepard.   That makes perfect sense.

[DaeJi]

Mordigan wrote...

Mass effect is far more SCIENCE FICTION than fantasy....and Science Fiction must always contain strong elements of realism for it to remain Science fiction.

Mass Effect is space fantasy. From humanoid aliens, to element zero, to biotic powers, to hyper advanced machines that left behind technology for other creatures to find (which had to haven taken them millions, if not billions of years to do), and tons of other things it is clear that this is a fantasy work that uses real world science where it can to improve the game setting.

[Mordigan]

didymos1120 wrote...

Here's the problem: you can say it a million times, and people will still refuse to buy it because it's assertion without evidence.  How do you know this?  What's your source?  I have trouble seeing why they'd spend more money on studio time, voice director time, and voice actor time recording all those superfluous lines if they have no plans to use them.  And who knows how many takes were done for these useless lines.  Because if they knew ahead of time they wouldn't be using them, they not only wouldn't do multiple takes, they wouldn't do one take.

While I admit that I myself am unsure as to Bioware's motivations in doing things the way they did, it's not unusual for voice actors to record tons of dialogue, much of which will never be used in the film, game, cartoon or whatever they are working on... 

But the main point in my arguement is that while both Meer and Hale recorded S/S dialogue, the romanceable NPC characters did not....UNLESS they were specifically scripted for S/S romance.

Also, this just isn't Bioware's style.  I've been playing Bioware's games since Baldurs Gate, and from what I've seen, they do not make their characters or romances in this fashion.

ETA: Also, why even put them in the game data?  It's just wasted disc/drive space.  Typically, stuff that's dummied out in games like that is done so much later in development.  It's easier, faster, and cheaper to just comment stuff out or whatever and put up with the dead code and unused data wasting space than it would be to rewrite large sections of the game.  Plus, you may be able to squeeze it in at the last minute, or finish it by way of DLC

Thats one point.  If characters like Ashley, Tali, Kaidan, Thane etc were originally scripted as bisexual but the content was cut at the last minute, why didn't Bioware just release a DLC or patch to finish it? 

[DaeJi]

Mordigan wrote...
Thats one point.  If characters like Ashley, Tali, Kaidan, Thane etc were originally scripted as bisexual but the content was cut at the last minute, why didn't Bioware just release a DLC or patch to finish it? 

That's kind of why we have these threads and discussions, because we would like for BioWare to release a DLC to finish it. Or at least give us same sex opinions in any expansions or Mass Effect 3.

[Mordigan]

DaeJi wrote...

Mass Effect is space fantasy. From humanoid aliens, to element zero, to biotic powers, to hyper advanced machines that left behind technology for other creatures to find (which had to haven taken them millions, if not billions of years to do), and tons of other things it is clear that this is a fantasy work that uses real world science where it can to improve the game setting.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.  Mass Effect has both fantasy and Sci-Fi elements.  The former because there are obviously some fantastical elements in the game (ie biotics etc), and the latter because of classic Sci-Fi elements like FTL travel, alien life forms etc..

[lewis1306]

Arik7 wrote...

lewis1306 wrote...

I wouldn't mind if a gay character came up to maleshep and maleshep declined thier advances.
or, if there was a gay couple in the game.

as long as Shepard is not gay.

also. I would hate to see any character's that were already hetero suddenly become gay.

no gay garruis.
No gay joker, etc...

Yeah, because it must be so important to you how other people play their game.   Their Shepard just HAS to be the same as your Shepard.   That makes perfect sense.

... I'm not saying that all Shepards have to be the same.

they can be Paragon or Renegade or anything in between.
they can go about saving the galaxy any way they choose and have romances or choose not to.

in fact, I don't really care too much what other people do with their shepard.

the fact is, however, that for many people (myself included)... seeing A gay maleshep would be like seeing a gay Chuck Norris or a Gay Bruce Lee or a Gay Iron man or a gay Rambo. It sorta hurts the brand,  you know?

even if my particular maleshep is not gay, the potential for him to be gay, or the knowledge that there are gay maleshepards out there will be a huge turnoff for many people.

No matter how individual gamers play him, (or her) Shepard is a hero and a baddass. He or she can be a paragon noble heroic baddass or he or she can be a hardcore tough renegade badass or anything in between that's up to each individual player.

Male gayness, sweetness, or fruitiness of any kind takes away from that baddassery, and makes all Shepards somewhat less awesome.

[Mordigan]

DaeJi wrote...
That's kind of why we have these threads and discussions, because we would like for BioWare to release a DLC to finish it..

Assuming of course that they were originally planned to be S/S romanceable, which in my opinion, is definitely no...

[bronco10]

I wouldn't mind f/f or m/m. it would be awesome of a sex scene like ashley and shepard in me1.

[SimonTheFrog]

lewis1306 wrote...

For me and many others, Seeing a gay maleshep... ANY gay maleshep, would be like seeing a gay Chuck Norris or a gay Bruce lee or a gay Iron man etc... It would just sorta hurt the brand, you know.

Shepard is NOT the hero of a novel, film or comic. He is the hero of YOUR game. When you play ME, then he will be as straight as all the guys mentioned above. Why do you bother, how Wonky the wonderclown likes to play his own private Shepard?
And just to inform you: many player already have a GAY SHEPARD right now!! Yes! Shepard is already gay! There is just no m/m LI that visualizes his sexuality. But that doesn't make him straight. Only not very lucky for the time being.

so, what are gonna do about it?

This is a game... and a roleplay game on top.

Not a film or book...

Edit: in you mind a gay Shepard is not bad ass. In other peoples mind a gay Shepard is very bad ass. This is nothing that can be argumented like it was supported by actual facts. If you think he's less a hero when gay, don't play him gay. But please don't assume that everyone thinks the same way as you.

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 10 mars 2010 - 04:08 .

[asaiasai]

jlb524 wrote...

Collider wrote...

I'm not saying that any character in particular it would be out of character for. Why? Because I am not the writer of any of these characters. I am saying that the WRITERS themselves can decide that their character is not heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual. 

The writers decide the characters, yes, but then they change their minds.

Going back to Tali (she's a favorite example I guess), there's nothing about her characterization in ME1 or ME2 that screams, 'look at me!  I'm heterosexual!'  or, 'look at me!  I'm bisexual!'   They could turn around and in ME3 write her as a bisexual character and this wouldn't clash with anything that's happened up until this point.   They changed how they wrote her in ME2 from ME1 in regards to romance.  They didn't write Tali as being interested in Shepard back then, but then decided to do so in ME2.  It fits, even though she showed no interest in Shepard in ME1, becuase there was nothing that happened in ME1 that would make it impossible for her to fall for Shepard.

I know that some dev said they had talked about making Tali a romance option in ME3 but they never actually wrote it.  The writers, at the time of ME1, decided she was not attracted to Shepard and then they changed their minds. 

The part i highlighted in bold is the answer to why threads like this are important. Bioware decided after many many threads of the Tali fans screaming about a Tali romance for ME2 the folks at Bioware made it possible. Threads like this are how we the community communicate our wants for the next sequal. It is because of threads like this they wrote the Tali romance for ME2, they do listen if you try to communicate in an intelligent manner.

Asai

[Arik7]

lewis1306 wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

lewis1306 wrote...

I wouldn't mind if a gay character came up to maleshep and maleshep declined thier advances.
or, if there was a gay couple in the game.

as long as Shepard is not gay.

also. I would hate to see any character's that were already hetero suddenly become gay.

no gay garruis.
No gay joker, etc...

Yeah, because it must be so important to you how other people play their game.   Their Shepard just HAS to be the same as your Shepard.   That makes perfect sense.

... I'm not saying that all Shepards have to be the same.

they can be Paragon or Renegade or anything in between.
they can go about saving the galaxy any way they choose and have romances or choose not to.

in fact, I don't really care too much what other people do with their shepard.

the fact is, however, that for many people (myself included)... seeing A gay maleshep would be like seeing a gay Chuck Norris or a Gay Bruce Lee or a Gay Iron man or a gay Rambo. It sorta hurts the brand,  you know?

even if my particular maleshep is not gay, the potential for him to be gay, or the knowledge that there are gay maleshepards out there will be a huge turnoff for many people.

No matter how individual gamers play him, (or her) Shepard is a hero and a baddass. He or she can be a paragon noble heroic baddass or he or she can be a hardcore tough renegade badass or anything in between that's up to each individual player.

Male gayness, sweetness, or fruitiness of any kind takes away from that baddassery, and makes all Shepards somewhat less awesome.

Because all gays are sweet fruity hairdressers, right?  Especially those queens in prisons.

Modifié par Arik7, 10 mars 2010 - 04:09 .

[lewis1306]

DaeJi wrote...

Mordigan wrote...
Thats one point.  If characters like Ashley, Tali, Kaidan, Thane etc were originally scripted as bisexual but the content was cut at the last minute, why didn't Bioware just release a DLC or patch to finish it? 

That's kind of why we have these threads and discussions, because we would like for BioWare to release a DLC to finish it. Or at least give us same sex opinions in any expansions or Mass Effect 3.

That's the point...
If they where scripted that way and they decided to cut it, then they did it for a reason,.

they didn't accidentally cut it.
it was a concious decision to cut it. Why they make that decision and then put out a "fix" or DLC to undo the decision that they already made. Why would they "fix" something that they did on purpose? the word "fix" implies that there was an accident or a mistake of some kind.

obviosly, they carefully concidered same sex relationships at one point and then decided against it.

[DaeJi]

Mordigan wrote...

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.  Mass Effect has both fantasy and Sci-Fi elements.  The former because there are obviously some fantastical elements in the game (ie biotics etc), and the latter because of classic Sci-Fi elements like FTL travel, alien life forms etc..

Fast than light travel and aliens aren't actually classic elements of science fiction. Let's me put it this way: most the works considered "classic science fiction" aren't science fiction at all. For a work to be science fiction there has to a degree of "probability" or the sense that this story could realistically happen in within the constains of how we believe the universe to work.

It gets tricky.

Anyway, I would put Mass Effect into the "space fantasy" genre along side Stars Wars and Warhammer 40K.

[DaeJi]

lewis1306 wrote...

That's the point...
If they where scripted that way and they decided to cut it, then they did it for a reason,.

they didn't accidentally cut it.
it was a concious decision to cut it. Why they make that decision and then put out a "fix" or DLC to undo the decision that they already made. Why would they "fix" something that they did on purpose? the word "fix" implies that there was an accident or a mistake of some kind.

obviosly, they carefully concidered same sex relationships at one point and then decided against it.

Like they did with Tali? <_<

[SimonTheFrog]

lewis1306 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Mordigan wrote...
Thats one point.  If characters like Ashley, Tali, Kaidan, Thane etc were originally scripted as bisexual but the content was cut at the last minute, why didn't Bioware just release a DLC or patch to finish it? 

That's kind of why we have these threads and discussions, because we would like for BioWare to release a DLC to finish it. Or at least give us same sex opinions in any expansions or Mass Effect 3.

That's the point...
If they where scripted that way and they decided to cut it, then they did it for a reason,.

they didn't accidentally cut it.
it was a concious decision to cut it. Why they make that decision and then put out a "fix" or DLC to undo the decision that they already made. Why would they "fix" something that they did on purpose? the word "fix" implies that there was an accident or a mistake of some kind.

obviosly, they carefully concidered same sex relationships at one point and then decided against it.

Please go back a few pages and inform yourself at least a tiny little bit before you post stuff like that. 

As was discussed a thousand times already, we cannot be sure about why the stuff is on the discs and why not in the game. But, seeing what employees of BioWare write in forums and what is a likely scenario given the gay friendly history of BW, they would have made the content available, if they could have finished it on time and budget. But they needed the resources elsewhere before release.
This is just a theory, but if you consider the other games from BW, its more likely than your suggestion that they don't like gay heroes in their games.

[Tom Adama]

Lightice_av wrote...

Haha, I watch Caprica also.

I guessed as much. You may have noted that Sam is the most badass character in the show, and happens to be married to a man.

... Ok, but I hope you realize Sam's purpose on the show, it's to have culture shock value for the viewer. Ron Moore and David Eick are trying to show us the ignorance of human progression, and ultimately the self-destructive nature of unending aspirations towards unfounded tolerance.

In Caprica it was ok for; sons to sleep with Mothers, normal bars would feature completely naked tenders, group families comprised of bisexual couples swapping sex partners nightly, ritual sacrifices, technology run amock, colony culture clashes, entire teen subcultures RAISED literally by technology etc.

Caprica is a ultra-modern picture of where society WILL be heading, do you view it as a utopia? As a viewer, the Cylons were RIGHT to wipe out the humans, they were DISGUSTING! This is the point, humanity lost its perspective and moral reserve; they tolerated EVERYTHING. As Apollo said," Our minds always outraced our hearts."

Sam's purpose is to show that the typical male persona in the colonies involves homosexual behaviors. Sex was no longer reserved for man and woman but for all humans. If Sam was born here, he is much less likely to be gay than if he was born in the colonies. Homosexuality was no longer taboo, it was part of colony culture just as heterosexual behaviour was. Now don't go on a tangeant and tell me that people who are gay are born gay, that must mean that ALL men in Ancient Greece must have been gay; that is rediculous, it was considered POSH and FAD to be gay. Only the intellectuals and rich had gay relations, and only the poor did otherwise.

(FYI, I am a HBsc. double Major of Neuroscience and Psychology from University of Toronto, sexuality is NOT genetic or even biological)

... Homosexuality was PROMOTED in ancient times, yet after polytheism was abandoned it became taboo. Now that secularism is sneaking back in, it's re-appearing.

Sam is not like Shepard. Shepard is a galactic hero while Sam is a murderous mobster for a cult. Would you use a gay Shepard in a story emphasizing "humanities best" in the main character? Cmon... Bioware got AROUND that issue by making lesbian relationships occur with monogendered Asari, yet they only occured with LESBIAN romanticism, something that the modern day male ENDORSES.

Look at the market and create a game to that... they targetted the right people in my opinion.