7455 réponses à ce sujet

[DaeJi]

Tom Adama wrote...
Sam is not like Shepard. Shepard is a galactic hero while Sam is a murderous mobster for a cult. Would you use a gay Shepard in a story emphasizing "humanities best" in the main character? Cmon... Bioware got AROUND that issue by making lesbian relationships occur with monogendered Asari, yet they only occured with LESBIAN romanticism, something that the modern day male ENDORSES.

You could have a gay hero defeat the Blight in Dragon Age: Origins or a gay hero save an empire in Jade Empire.

[Tom Adama]

DaeJi wrote...

Tom Adama wrote...
Sam is not like Shepard. Shepard is a galactic hero while Sam is a murderous mobster for a cult. Would you use a gay Shepard in a story emphasizing "humanities best" in the main character? Cmon... Bioware got AROUND that issue by making lesbian relationships occur with monogendered Asari, yet they only occured with LESBIAN romanticism, something that the modern day male ENDORSES.

You could have a gay hero defeat the Blight in Dragon Age: Origins or a gay hero save an empire in Jade Empire.

Yes you could but look at the settings of both those games... they are not even remotely similar to modern day society. They don't "hit home" like Mass effect does. Not to mention that Jade empire is rooted in mythology as is DAO, your character in JE doesnt even talk for goodness sakes.

Modifié par Tom Adama, 10 mars 2010 - 04:24 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Tom Adama wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

Haha, I watch Caprica also.

I guessed as much. You may have noted that Sam is the most badass character in the show, and happens to be married to a man.

... Ok, but I hope you realize Sam's purpose on the show, it's to have culture shock value for the viewer. Ron Moore and David Eick are trying to show us the ignorance of human progression, and ultimately the self-destructive nature of unending aspirations towards unfounded tolerance.

In Caprica it was ok for; sons to sleep with Mothers, normal bars would feature completely naked tenders, group families comprised of bisexual couples swapping sex partners nightly, ritual sacrifices, technology run amock, colony culture clashes, entire teen subcultures RAISED literally by technology etc.

Caprica is a ultra-modern picture of where society WILL be heading, do you view it as a utopia? As a viewer, the Cylons were RIGHT to wipe out the humans, they were DISGUSTING! This is the point, humanity lost its perspective and moral reserve; they tolerated EVERYTHING. As Apollo said," Our minds always outraced our hearts."

Sam's purpose is to show that the typical male persona in the colonies involves homosexual behaviors. Sex was no longer reserved for man and woman but for all humans. If Sam was born here, he is much less likely to be gay than if he was born in the colonies. Homosexuality was no longer taboo, it was part of colony culture just as heterosexual behaviour was. Now don't go on a tangeant and tell me that people who are gay are born gay, that must mean that ALL men in Ancient Greece must have been gay; that is rediculous, it was considered POSH and FAD to be gay. Only the intellectuals and rich had gay relations, and only the poor did otherwise.

(FYI, I am a HBsc. double Major of Neuroscience and Psychology from University of Toronto, sexuality is NOT genetic or even biological)

... Homosexuality was PROMOTED in ancient times, yet after polytheism was abandoned it became taboo. Now that secularism is sneaking back in, it's re-appearing.

Sam is not like Shepard. Shepard is a galactic hero while Sam is a murderous mobster for a cult. Would you use a gay Shepard in a story emphasizing "humanities best" in the main character? Cmon... Bioware got AROUND that issue by making lesbian relationships occur with monogendered Asari, yet they only occured with LESBIAN romanticism, something that the modern day male ENDORSES.

Look at the market and create a game to that... they targetted the right people in my opinion.

Secularism sneaking back? That's a funny way to put it.

People are born gay. At any time. And if a society deals with it in a healthy and laissez-faire way than good for her. 

Anyway... gay heroes... please go back a few posts. I wrote there that this is a game, not a film. You can decide what your hero is. Many people already decided that Shepard is gay, or lesbian, or asexual, or whatever and they enjoy the game immensly. Please don't mix the media for arguments sake. 

[lewis1306]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

lewis1306 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Mordigan wrote...
Thats one point.  If characters like Ashley, Tali, Kaidan, Thane etc were originally scripted as bisexual but the content was cut at the last minute, why didn't Bioware just release a DLC or patch to finish it? 

That's kind of why we have these threads and discussions, because we would like for BioWare to release a DLC to finish it. Or at least give us same sex opinions in any expansions or Mass Effect 3.

That's the point...
If they where scripted that way and they decided to cut it, then they did it for a reason,.

they didn't accidentally cut it.
it was a concious decision to cut it. Why they make that decision and then put out a "fix" or DLC to undo the decision that they already made. Why would they "fix" something that they did on purpose? the word "fix" implies that there was an accident or a mistake of some kind.

obviosly, they carefully concidered same sex relationships at one point and then decided against it.

Please go back a few pages and inform yourself at least a tiny little bit before you post stuff like that. 

As was discussed a thousand times already, we cannot be sure about why the stuff is on the discs and why not in the game. But, seeing what employees of BioWare write in forums and what is a likely scenario given the gay friendly history of BW, they would have made the content available, if they could have finished it on time and budget. But they needed the resources elsewhere before release.
This is just a theory, but if you consider the other games from BW, its more likely than your suggestion that they don't like gay heroes in their games.

I can only take the "same sex romances" forum in small chunks... but from what I have read, my theory is as valid as yours. both are pure speculation but I think mine is more realistic because If Bioware really wanted to add same sex relationships they could have. I'm not buying the "time and budget" theory at all". Bioware never stated that as a reason. do you have a link? Until Bioware comes out and says it, you and I are both assuming. Although, mine makes more sense and yours seems more  to me like wishful thinking.

respectfully.

Also, i never said that Bioware didn't want gay heroes in their games, I am saying that bioware didn't think that a gay Shepard would be appropriate for Mass Effect.

Modifié par lewis1306, 10 mars 2010 - 04:31 .

[SimonTheFrog]

lewis1306 wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

lewis1306 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Mordigan wrote...
Thats one point.  If characters like Ashley, Tali, Kaidan, Thane etc were originally scripted as bisexual but the content was cut at the last minute, why didn't Bioware just release a DLC or patch to finish it? 

That's kind of why we have these threads and discussions, because we would like for BioWare to release a DLC to finish it. Or at least give us same sex opinions in any expansions or Mass Effect 3.

That's the point...
If they where scripted that way and they decided to cut it, then they did it for a reason,.

they didn't accidentally cut it.
it was a concious decision to cut it. Why they make that decision and then put out a "fix" or DLC to undo the decision that they already made. Why would they "fix" something that they did on purpose? the word "fix" implies that there was an accident or a mistake of some kind.

obviosly, they carefully concidered same sex relationships at one point and then decided against it.

Please go back a few pages and inform yourself at least a tiny little bit before you post stuff like that. 

As was discussed a thousand times already, we cannot be sure about why the stuff is on the discs and why not in the game. But, seeing what employees of BioWare write in forums and what is a likely scenario given the gay friendly history of BW, they would have made the content available, if they could have finished it on time and budget. But they needed the resources elsewhere before release.
This is just a theory, but if you consider the other games from BW, its more likely than your suggestion that they don't like gay heroes in their games.

I can only take the "same sex romances" forum in small chunks... but from what I have read, my theory is as valid as yours. both are pure speculation but I think mine is more realistic because If Bioware really wanted to ass same sex relationships they could have. I'm not buying the "time and budget" theory at all". Bioware never stated that as a reason. do you have a link? Until Bioware comes out and says it, you and I are both assuming. Although, mine makes more sense and yours seems more  to me like wishful thinking.

respectfully.

Yeah, there's a link somewhere. But i don't care enough if you believe it or not to search for it... respectfully :happy:

As i said, if you see that almost all of their latest games had gay relationships and ME1 has lesbians, then the argument that BioWare is afraid to include it, or doesn't like the idea, is just very very unlikely. Your "ME hits home" is not very convincing either, seing Shepard's dating Garrus et.al. 

[lewis1306]

I never said that Bioware was against gay heroes in their games.



My point is that it seems like Bioware decided that a gay male Shepard in Mass Effect would not be appropriate.

[Tom Adama]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Tom Adama wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

Haha, I watch Caprica also.

I guessed as much. You may have noted that Sam is the most badass character in the show, and happens to be married to a man.

... Ok, but I hope you realize Sam's purpose on the show, it's to have culture shock value for the viewer. Ron Moore and David Eick are trying to show us the ignorance of human progression, and ultimately the self-destructive nature of unending aspirations towards unfounded tolerance.

In Caprica it was ok for; sons to sleep with Mothers, normal bars would feature completely naked tenders, group families comprised of bisexual couples swapping sex partners nightly, ritual sacrifices, technology run amock, colony culture clashes, entire teen subcultures RAISED literally by technology etc.

Caprica is a ultra-modern picture of where society WILL be heading, do you view it as a utopia? As a viewer, the Cylons were RIGHT to wipe out the humans, they were DISGUSTING! This is the point, humanity lost its perspective and moral reserve; they tolerated EVERYTHING. As Apollo said," Our minds always outraced our hearts."

Sam's purpose is to show that the typical male persona in the colonies involves homosexual behaviors. Sex was no longer reserved for man and woman but for all humans. If Sam was born here, he is much less likely to be gay than if he was born in the colonies. Homosexuality was no longer taboo, it was part of colony culture just as heterosexual behaviour was. Now don't go on a tangeant and tell me that people who are gay are born gay, that must mean that ALL men in Ancient Greece must have been gay; that is rediculous, it was considered POSH and FAD to be gay. Only the intellectuals and rich had gay relations, and only the poor did otherwise.

(FYI, I am a HBsc. double Major of Neuroscience and Psychology from University of Toronto, sexuality is NOT genetic or even biological)

... Homosexuality was PROMOTED in ancient times, yet after polytheism was abandoned it became taboo. Now that secularism is sneaking back in, it's re-appearing.

Sam is not like Shepard. Shepard is a galactic hero while Sam is a murderous mobster for a cult. Would you use a gay Shepard in a story emphasizing "humanities best" in the main character? Cmon... Bioware got AROUND that issue by making lesbian relationships occur with monogendered Asari, yet they only occured with LESBIAN romanticism, something that the modern day male ENDORSES.

Look at the market and create a game to that... they targetted the right people in my opinion.

Secularism sneaking back? That's a funny way to put it.

People are born gay. At any time. And if a society deals with it in a healthy and laissez-faire way than good for her.  

Well secularism is already here, the reason being that monarchies have been abandoned in favor of democratic governments where large volumes of beliefs constantly clash. Secularism also permits freedom of belief and removes higher philosphies from self-governing societal bodies.

And no, people are not born gay or straight, society teaches them what is erotic or desirable. Sexuality is ENTIRELY psychological, there are no brain correlates that yield "straight of gay". Even prisoners with XYY's commit homosexual acts in prisons, how can they be born gay if they are super-male?

[Arik7]

Please keep the discussion Mass Effect related.  Thanks!

[SimonTheFrog]

[quote]Tom Adama wrote...

[quote]SimonTheFrog wrote...

[quote]Tom Adama wrote...

[quote]Lightice_av wrote...

[quote]
Haha, I watch Caprica also.[/quote]
[/quote]

Secularism sneaking back? That's a funny way to put it.

People are born gay. At any time. And if a society deals with it in a healthy and laissez-faire way than good for her.  
[/quote]

Well secularism is already here, the reason being that monarchies have been abandoned in favor of democratic governments where large volumes of beliefs constantly clash. Secularism also permits freedom of belief and removes higher philosphies from self-governing societal bodies.

And no, people are not born gay or straight, society teaches them what is erotic or desirable. Sexuality is ENTIRELY psychological, there are no brain correlates that yield "straight of gay". Even prisoners with XYY's commit homosexual acts in prisons, how can they be born gay if they are super-male?[/quote]

Yeah, i heard about psychologist theories about the reasons for being gay. One hilarious was that it's men that are afraid of vaginas... 

I also heard very convincing theories that support the genetic source.

I certainly don't know myself and for me many theories sound more or less convincing. 
Please let's skip this topic for now as it is not so relevant concerning the game.

[DaeJi]

lewis1306 wrote...
Also, i never said that Bioware didn't want gay heroes in their games, I am saying that bioware didn't think that a gay Shepard would be appropriate for Mass Effect.

I will say this, in a game where one of the biggest draws is "Shepard is who you want him to be" limiting him is such an asinine way is not appropriate. A gay male Shepard is the only logical option not given to players (logical in that
similar routes for Shepard are open to Shepard).

[lewis1306]

"[/quote]


As i said, if you see that almost all of their latest games had gay relationships and ME1 has lesbians, then the argument that BioWare is afraid to include it, or doesn't like the idea, is just very very unlikely. Your "ME hits home" is not very convincing either, seing Shepard's dating Garrus et.al. [/quote] "



ME1 Doesn't have Lesbians, However, Femshep does have the option of having a member of a feminine Alien race as a love interest.

Casey hudson already came out and said that the Dev team does not consider the relationship between Liara and femshep to be a lesbian relationship. There is a link for it, but i don't care enough if you believe it or not to search for it

Modifié par lewis1306, 10 mars 2010 - 04:49 .

[Temper_Graniteskul]

lewis1306 wrote...

I never said that Bioware was against gay heroes in their games.

My point is that it seems like Bioware decided that a gay male Shepard in Mass Effect would not be appropriate.

Even if true, they had also initially decided to have m/m and f/f dialogue recorded for ME1, and precluded Talimance as well. They changed their minds on the second, due (apparently) in no small part to fan demand. No reason the decisions - whatever their impetus - for the first can't be changed, as well.

I still can't quite fathom what line of reasoning would say that a female bisexual or lesbian is appropriate for ME, but a gay male is not. It's not like anyone's calling for them to market GayShep as the face of ME (though that would be refreshing, IMO), and they certainly haven't marketed any FemShep, really - straight, gay, or bi. Sheploo 'John Shepard' may well be straight, but that doesn't mean that's all every MShep has to be.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 10 mars 2010 - 04:48 .

[lewis1306]

Arik7 wrote...

Please keep the discussion Mass Effect related.  Thanks!

this picure is gross, but I respect your right to post it... lol

[Arik7]

lewis1306 wrote...
ME1 Doesn't have Lesbians, However, Femshep does have the option of having a member of a feminine Alien race as a love interest.

Casey hudson already came out and said that the Dev team does not consider the relationship between Liara and femshep to be a lesbian relationship. There is a link for it, but i don't care enough if you believe it or not to search for it

So if a woman is attracted to someone like Liara, that's hetero?
And I guess FemShep/Kelly one night-stand is totally heterosexual as well.    Or maybe Kelly is "asexual" like Liara?

Modifié par Arik7, 10 mars 2010 - 05:08 .

[SimonTheFrog]

[quote]lewis1306 wrote...




[/quote]


As i said, if you see that almost all of their latest games had gay relationships and ME1 has lesbians, then the argument that BioWare is afraid to include it, or doesn't like the idea, is just very very unlikely. Your "ME hits home" is not very convincing either, seing Shepard's dating Garrus et.al. [/quote]

ME1 Doesn't have Lesbians, However, Femshep does have the option of having a member of a feminine Alien race as a love interest.

Casey hudson already came out and said that the Dev team does not consider the relationship between Liara and femshep to be a lesbian relationship. There is a link for it, but i don't care enough if you believe it or not to search for it [/quote]

Yeah... very funny. I know the quote 
But you are not really suggesting that there is absolutely no lesbian vibe going on in ME1 or ME2?

[DaeJi]

lewis1306 wrote...


Casey hudson already came out and said that the Dev team does not consider the relationship between Liara and femshep to be a lesbian relationship. There is a link for it, but i don't care enough if you believe it or not to search for it

Despite what they said, Liara looked like a human female. A straight woman would not be attracted to a character who looked, sounded, acted, and was basically female in every way. In order for a female Shepard to fall in love with Liara, she would have to be attracted to females or at least open to the possibility of being with one. There is no getting around that.

[lewis1306]

Lewis1306, his Shepard, and 90% of his male coworkers, friends, and family members who have played ME1 or ME2 are VERY pro "lesbian vibe".

and the award for the hottest scene in ME1 goes to: Drumroll please............ Liara and femshep!
(there is a tie for the hottest scene in ME2  between Kelly and femshep and Miranda and Maleshep)

Modifié par lewis1306, 10 mars 2010 - 04:56 .

[DaeJi]

lewis1306 wrote...



Lewis1306, his Shepard, and 90% of his male coworkers, friends, and family members who have played ME1 or ME2 are VERY pro "lesbian vibe".

Would an optional gay male romance scare them away? Especially when the only two characters to ever hit on Shepard first are Liara and Jack, two females? 

[SimonTheFrog]

Good night guys...

[Temper_Graniteskul]

lewis1306 wrote...

Lewis1306, his Shepard, and 90% of his male coworkers, friends, and family members who have played ME1 or ME2 are VERY pro "lesbian vibe".

and the award for the hottest scene in ME1 goes to: Drumroll please............ Liara and femshep!
(there is a tie for the hottest scene in ME2  between Kelly and femshep and Miranda and Maleshep)

Yet there are a number of people for whom the game experience is not diminished by the inclusion of m/m options - who would, in fact, find it 'hot.' Explain, please, why your interests should be represented in game but ours - in support of both f/f and m/m romance options - should not. 'It squicks me out' will not be accepted as a reason.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 10 mars 2010 - 06:03 .

[Collider]

SimonTheFrog wrote...
People are born gay.

You don't know that. Somehow, I doubt think an infant has the capacity to even fathom sexuality let alone which gender they are attracted to.

[Collider]

DaeJi wrote...

Mordigan wrote...

Mass effect is far more SCIENCE FICTION than fantasy....and Science Fiction must always contain strong elements of realism for it to remain Science fiction.

Mass Effect is space fantasy. From humanoid aliens, to element zero, to biotic powers, to hyper advanced machines that left behind technology for other creatures to find (which had to haven taken them millions, if not billions of years to do), and tons of other things it is clear that this is a fantasy work that uses real world science where it can to improve the game setting.

It's science fiction. Not space fantasy.

[Collider]

lewis1306 wrote...
Male gayness, sweetness, or fruitiness of any kind takes away from that baddassery, and makes all Shepards somewhat less awesome.

And lesbian femshep doesn't? Please. male shepard can be full on renegade take no prisoners kind of guy and still be gay. He doesn't need to talk with a lisp or have a limp wrist or any ridiculous stereotype.