7455 réponses à ce sujet

[casedawgz]

Kyanos1a wrote...

Hmm.. I must have missed those exchanges. I still stand by wanting a normal kinda guy for a LI instead of some morally bankrupt misfit that gets tacked on. And maybe an Irish accent

Daniels is a Scot. Like Scotty, on Star trek

[Kyanos1a]

Oh I know he's a Scot.. Oh I know

[didymos1120]

Kyanos1a wrote...

Hmm.. I must have missed those exchanges.

It's not surprising.  You have to go down to engineering pretty regularly to catch them all.  Eventually, you'll miss out for good, because various events will change what the next conversation you
overhear will be about, and like the more interactive characters, you eventually just hit the end of the line(s). 

I still stand by wanting a normal kinda guy for a LI instead of some morally bankrupt misfit that gets tacked on. And maybe an Irish accent

Then you have to watch out for "Jacob Syndrome".  I.e., they make a decent, regular dude who just does his job and handles his sh!t, and then people hate him 'cause he seems so boring compared to all the other angsted-out lunatics running around demanding your attention.  It's quite possible to have someone colorful and interesting without them being another Zevran.

Modifié par didymos1120, 12 mars 2010 - 05:04 .

[Kyanos1a]

Actually Jacob was really poorly developed and I think he could have used a lot more attention. His interaction with everything was almost too anemic and not to mention as a LI he was so easy and boring it was sad. Normal guy doesn't have to be dull by any means. But I completely agreee that would almost be as bad as tacked on. I guess I was really saying a male/male love interest that wasn't a toally broken person.

Modifié par Kyanos1a, 12 mars 2010 - 05:11 .

[RyrineaNara]

Jacob interactions with Female Shepard made me go what the f**k at how ****ty she sounded. Come on, I wasn't even trying to romance him I was trying to stay faithful to Kaidan in this game. It turned me off of Jacob, so badly that it wasn't funny.

[casedawgz]

RyrineaNara wrote...

Jacob interactions with Female Shepard made me go what the f**k at how ****ty she sounded. Come on, I wasn't even trying to romance him I was trying to stay faithful to Kaidan in this game. It turned me off of Jacob, so badly that it wasn't funny.

It was seriously like "Hey there cutie. Do you having sex in armories?"

[diskoh]

RyrineaNara wrote...

Jacob interactions with Female Shepard made me go what the f**k at how ****ty she sounded. Come on, I wasn't even trying to romance him I was trying to stay faithful to Kaidan in this game. It turned me off of Jacob, so badly that it wasn't funny.

Yeah, seriously. After my first accidentally flirty conversation with him, I went back and chose the renegade options. Surprise.... she still flirts.

Avoiding romance with that rude *ss is harder than defeating the collectors.

Modifié par diskoh, 12 mars 2010 - 05:25 .

[RyrineaNara]

diskoh wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

Jacob interactions with Female Shepard made me go what the f**k at how ****ty she sounded. Come on, I wasn't even trying to romance him I was trying to stay faithful to Kaidan in this game. It turned me off of Jacob, so badly that it wasn't funny.

Yeah, seriously. After my first accidentally flirty conversation with him, I went back and chose the renegade options. Surprise.... she still flirts.

Avoiding romance with that rude *ss is harder than defeating the collectors.

 I agree it was like they were trying to make us cheat.

[RyrineaNara]

casedawgz wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

Jacob interactions with Female Shepard made me go what the f**k at how ****ty she sounded. Come on, I wasn't even trying to romance him I was trying to stay faithful to Kaidan in this game. It turned me off of Jacob, so badly that it wasn't funny.

It was seriously like "Hey there cutie. Do you having sex in armories?"

Yeap it was :happy:

[Tavanaka]

I fully support this. Not sure if I'd ever use the option myself, but the more malleable Shepard is, the better.



One thing that's a tad disconcerting about these kinds of threads, however, is the desire to change certain favorites to be a certain sexuality. We shouldn't sacrifice a character to be "the gay one" simply for the sake of them being gay. Being heterosexual is as much a part of a person as being homosexual. We shouldn't want Garrus or Joker or TIM or any other character to suddenly be sexually attracted to Shepard simply because we want them to be. To do so would prove the dissenters correct in their assessment that "gay" is all about sexual activities, and deny that character the same rights that this topic requests. The "gay character" should be a stellar character first, and a homosexual second. Granted, this isn't to say that being homosexual isn't an integral part of who someone is.



Take Thane, for example: Designed physically to be the "ideal" alien female love interest. Everything from his species to his hilariously large collar and bare manchest was created to be as appealing as possible to those with a desire for something exotic. However, he is Thane first and foremost. His occupation is questionable. His personality is flawed. He's knee-deep in spirituality. His backstory in particular caused quite a few initially rabid fans to think twice about moving on him. To some, his personality is completely unappealing, despite his physical attributes. This is very, very important.



I think, ideally, there would be multiple homosexual romance options, with wild and different personalities that outshine their sexuality. This way, people can appreciate them as characters before they are able to judge (or are even aware) of their sexual preference. Isn't that what we all would like? To be judged in real life based on our words and actions, as opposed to who we get into bed with, or the color of our skin? Silly as it may sound, we should give fictional characters the same chance. We shouldn't be asking for GAY characters, we should be asking for STUNNING characters who are also gay. Having multiple gay romance options will also prevent gay players from feeling pigeonholed into a relationship with a character that they don't mesh with.



Heck, why not go the extra mile and implement additional gay characters who are unobtainable (much like Samara was to straight and lesbian players)? Straight and gay people get rejected just the same. This will further concrete the existence of homosexuality as an existing aspect in the Mass Effect universe, as well as help quash the ignorant idea that gay people run around flaunting their gayness and pegging every man they see. In fact, on that note, lets have more characters reject Shepard's advances in general. I like the idea that some characters aren't romanceable not because they're not coded to be, but because they're coded to not be interested. Makes the universe more real to me.



The inverse to the above (regarding changing characters canonically to be homosexual) is the ridiculous theory posed by the dissenters that Shepard will be hit on by "random guys" (or girls) willy-nilly if homosexuality is "allowed" in Mass Effect. There is no special "gay vision" that homosexuals possess to my knowledge, either now or in the future. Shepard doesn't strike me as the kind of person that most people would approach randomly on the street to solicit for a relationship. He/She is a military Commander, and a rather intimidating one at that, regardless of what personality path you follow. Shepard has initiated every romance to date (Liara somewhat notwithstanding). I doubt that's going to change, especially with a subject as politically loaded as homosexuality.

[FlyinElk212]

I'm currently playing through another Modded runthrough of ME2. It really makes me sad that Male-Shep's audio files for a Kaidan romance are there to begin with...

Bioware so wants the M/M relationships to happen. There's gotta be someone on the top that's forcing them to remove 'em...

[Darth_Trethon]

There are what? like 0.00000NOTHING% people that are into same gender and buy games while there are 99.999999% of the beer drinking cool people who are mostly into shooters currently greatly expanding the fan-base of BioWare that would not buy a game with such a thing as a gay romance in it.



Hell look at the Tali worship threads that got us the Tali romance.....we're talking about 800+ page threads in eight days(YES that would be TWO zeroes on the page number and ZERO zeroes on the day number). It will NOT happen. As long as the normal people keep buying this game and they are buying it in mass quantities a same gender romance will not happen. Not to mention that this thread also largely depends on normal people that tell the OP and others like him/her the reality of his/her situation: NO CHANCE.

[Tavanaka]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

There are what? like 0.00000NOTHING% people that are into same gender and buy games while there are 99.999999% of the beer drinking cool people who are mostly into shooters currently greatly expanding the fan-base of BioWare that would not buy a game with such a thing as a gay romance in it.

Nice statistics there. Got a source?

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Hell look at the Tali worship threads that got us the Tali romance.....we're talking about 800+ page threads in eight days(YES that would be TWO zeroes on the page number and ZERO zeroes on the day number). It will NOT happen. As long as the normal people keep buying this game and they are buying it in mass quantities a same gender romance will not happen. Not to mention that this thread also largely depends on normal people that tell the OP and others like him/her the reality of his/her situation: NO CHANCE.

So because people like Tali, homosexuality should continue to be swept under the carpet? Because "normal" (lolwat) people buy video games, "abnormal" people should have less to relate to? I'm not gay myself but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore that such people exist and that they have as much a right to feel, to be accepted as I do.

Modifié par Tavanaka, 12 mars 2010 - 06:34 .

[Collider]

rynluna wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

There are what? like 0.00000NOTHING% people that are into same gender and buy games while there are 99.999999% of the beer drinking cool people who are mostly into shooters currently greatly expanding the fan-base of BioWare that would not buy a game with such a thing as a gay romance in it.

Hell look at the Tali worship threads that got us the Tali romance.....we're talking about 800+ page threads in eight days(YES that would be TWO zeroes on the page number and ZERO zeroes on the day number). It will NOT happen. As long as the normal people keep buying this game and they are buying it in mass quantities a same gender romance will not happen. Not to mention that this thread also largely depends on normal people that tell the OP and others like him/her the reality of his/her situation: NO CHANCE.

If there are zero percent of gay or lesbian gamers who buy games, then how was this thread or group formed?  If that were so then I wouldn't even exist! 

Straight people who want M/M or F/F content also exist, although I would prefer support to come from genuinely bisexual or gay people.

And for more speculation, does anyone think that Bioware will ever say why Manshep doesn't get any gay options but Femshep can have lesbian options? People speculate that Manshep is canon but Bioware has always been quoted as saying as the player shapes the story.  So Femshep is null and void?  It boggles my mind.

We can speculate but I don't think we have the "right" of speaking for Bioware.

[thegreateski]

*Obligatory ****ing about how you guys can't keep to your own thread*



Carry on.

[FlyinElk212]

rynluna wrote...

 So Femshep is null and void?  It boggles my mind.

Not to mention that "Fem-Sheps" can be gay if they want to be (Kelly Chambers. Let's not even mention the "Asari aren't female issues. Kelly, undebatably, has a vagina.).

So what does this say about Gay Male videogamers? I'd say there's a vast number of us out there, and yet Bioware (or more accurately, a few to one person there) refuses to acknowledge our presence with arguable their more successful franchise series.

[BrianWilly]

Tavanaka wrote...

One thing that's a tad disconcerting about these kinds of threads, however, is the desire to change certain favorites to be a certain sexuality. We shouldn't sacrifice a character to be "the gay one" simply for the sake of them being gay. Being heterosexual is as much a part of a person as being homosexual. We shouldn't want Garrus or Joker or TIM or any other character to suddenly be sexually attracted to Shepard simply because we want them to be. To do so would prove the dissenters correct in their assessment that "gay" is all about sexual activities, and deny that character the same rights that this topic requests. The "gay character" should be a stellar character first, and a homosexual second. Granted, this isn't to say that being homosexual isn't an integral part of who someone is.

Take Thane, for example: Designed physically to be the "ideal" alien female love interest. Everything from his species to his hilariously large collar and bare manchest was created to be as appealing as possible to  those with a desire for something exotic. However, he is Thane first and foremost. His occupation is questionable. His personality is  flawed. He's knee-deep in spirituality. His backstory in particular caused quite a few initially rabid fans to think twice about moving on him. To some, his personality is completely unappealing, despite his physical attributes. This is very, very important.

These are very good points.  On the other hand, consider the fact that characters like Thane and Tali (and Ashley and Kaidan from the first game) were, evidently, originally conceived as same-sex options with same-sex dialogue fully written and recorded, which didn't make it into  the final games. (The youtube links in the first page FAQ contain examples)

That's part of what makes this whole thing frustrating for us, the fact that they came so close...twice!...and yet backed off, for unknown reasons.

More to the point...does it really change Thane the character on a fundamental level to turn him bisexual if, as
far as we know, he was originally designed from the ground up as a bisexual character, but "straightened" at some point in the development process?  I can understand why many people would say it does but, personally, I would say otherwise.  Those lines that he says, that dialogue, that characterization, it was all originally done with the prospect of bisexuality in mind.  If anything, I might argue that to portray him as entirely straight is more of a disservice to the character as he was first conceived.

Tavanaka wrote...

There is no special "gay vision" that homosexuals possess to my knowledge, either now or in the future

You haven't heard?  In ME3, gay vision will be a ranked power tree.  Evolvable at level four into Incendiary Gay Vision or Squad Gay Vision.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 12 mars 2010 - 06:47 .

[Collider]

BrianWilly wrote...
You haven't heard?  In ME3, gay vision will be a ranked power tree.  Evolvable at level four into Incendiary Gay Vision or Squad Gay Vision.

Incendiary gay vision? What, like flamers?

Modifié par Collider, 12 mars 2010 - 06:51 .

[BrianWilly]

Exactly like flamers.

[Tavanaka]

BrianWilly wrote...

Tavanaka wrote...

One thing that's a tad disconcerting about these kinds of threads, however, is the desire to change certain favorites to be a certain sexuality. We shouldn't sacrifice a character to be "the gay one" simply for the sake of them being gay. Being heterosexual is as much a part of a person as being homosexual. We shouldn't want Garrus or Joker or TIM or any other character to suddenly be sexually attracted to Shepard simply because we want them to be. To do so would prove the dissenters correct in their assessment that "gay" is all about sexual activities, and deny that character the same rights that this topic requests. The "gay character" should be a stellar character first, and a homosexual second. Granted, this isn't to say that being homosexual isn't an integral part of who someone is.

Take Thane, for example: Designed physically to be the "ideal" alien female love interest. Everything from his species to his hilariously large collar and bare manchest was created to be as appealing as possible to  those with a desire for something exotic. However, he is Thane first and foremost. His occupation is questionable. His personality is  flawed. He's knee-deep in spirituality. His backstory in particular caused quite a few initially rabid fans to think twice about moving on him. To some, his personality is completely unappealing, despite his physical attributes. This is very, very important.

These are very good points.  On the other hand, consider the fact that characters like Thane and Tali (and Ashley and Kaidan from the first game) were, evidently, originally conceived as same-sex options with same-sex dialogue fully written and recorded, which didn't make it into  the final games. (The youtube links in the first page FAQ contain examples)

That's part of what makes this whole thing frustrating for us, the fact that they came so close...twice!...and yet backed off, for unknown reasons.

More to the point...does it really change Thane the character on a fundamental level to turn him bisexual if, as
far as we know, he was originally designed from the ground up as a bisexual character, but "straightened" at some point in the development process?  I can understand why many people would say it does but, personally, I would say otherwise.  Those lines that he says, that dialogue, that characterization, it was all originally done with the prospect of bisexuality in mind.  If anything, I might argue that to portray him as entirely straight is more of a disservice to the character as he was first conceived.

That's right! I had forgotten that some characters had been retconned at the last second. I agree, that makes the situation that much more irritating and disappointing. Thane in particular surprises me; I think that especially in his case being bisexual is an important and intriguing part of his character (even more so considering his backstory) that shouldn't have been cut. Hopefully we'll have made enough progress socially by the end of the next development cycle that such things won't be cut a third time.

BrianWilly wrote...

Tavanaka wrote...

There is no special "gay vision" that homosexuals possess to my knowledge, either now or in the future

You haven't heard?  In ME3, gay vision will be a ranked power tree.  Evolvable at level four into Incendiary Gay Vision or Squad Gay Vision.

This made me laugh so hard I spewed water. Also gave me an idea for a comic.  GLORIOUS.

[Collider]

BrianWilly wrote...
These are very good points.  On the other hand, consider the fact that characters like Thane and Tali (and Ashley and Kaidan from the first game) were, evidently, originally conceived as same-sex options with same-sex dialogue fully written and recorded, which didn't make it into  the final games. (The youtube links in the first page FAQ contain examples)

Incorrect. They were not fully written and recorded.

Those lines that he says, that dialogue, that characterization, it was all originally done with the prospect of bisexuality in mind.

You have no proof of that.

If anything, I might argue that to portray him as entirely straight is more of a disservice to the character as he was first conceived.

That is just as bad as saying that no characters should be homosexual or bisexual just because it would be a disservice to them.
There is nothing inherently deepening for any sexuality for any character. Straight/Bisexual/Homosexual does not make for a deeper character versus other sexualities.

Modifié par Collider, 12 mars 2010 - 07:02 .

[BrianWilly]

Collider wrote...

Incorrect. They were not fully written and recorded.
...

You have no proof of that.

For Thane and Tali, you're right I don't know if it was all written and recorded, though we've all definitely heard snippets.  For Ashley and Kaidan, though?  They were.  All available on youtube.  Remember, almost all the romance dialogue is interchangeable betwen male and female recipients anyway, beyond a couple perfunctory "sirs" and "ma'ams." The only real addition is for Shepard's end of the dialogue which, as we know, was all recorded.

Collider wrote...

That is just as bad as saying that no characters should be homosexual or bisexual just because it would be a disservice to them.
There is nothing inherently deepening for any sexuality for any character. Straight/Bisexual/Homosexual does not make for a deeper character versus other sexualities.

I'm not arguing that one sexuality is inherently better than another.  I'm saying that, if a character was originally written one way, changing that into something else is arguably disrespectful to the integrity of the original character.

Ashley was originally written as a Christian.  What if they had taken it out for the game?  Atheist Ashley may not be inherently better or worse than Christian Ashley, but I'd still say it was doing a disservice to the original Christian Ashley.  Especially if it was changed out of fear or censorship.

[Collider]

BrianWilly wrote...

Collider wrote...

Incorrect. They were not fully written and recorded.
...

You have no proof of that.

For Thane and Tali, you're right I don't know if it was all written and recorded, though we've all definitely heard snippets.  For Ashley and Kaidan, though?  They were.  All available on youtube.

Actually, I watched the male romance with Kaidan videos and there are plenty of lines that were not recorded.

I'm not arguing that one sexuality is inherently better than another.  I'm saying that, if a character was originally written one way, changing that into something else is arguably disrespectful to the integrity of the original character.

I don't see why you think this. Characters go through many transformations. The evolution of a character is NOT this:
Original --> Final

It's more like this
Phase 1 --> Phase 2 --> Phase 3 -->...Phase 50 ---> Final.

There is no "original" that we know of. We also don't know at what stage they considered making Ashley and Kaidan etc bisexual.

If Subject Zero was "originally" or previously written as a demure professional woman, would you say it would be damaging to her integrity that in the final version she's this wild tattooed violent chick? I hope you wouldn't.

Ashley was originally written as a Christian.  What if they had taken it out for the game?  Atheist Ashley may not be inherently better or worse than Christian Ashley, but I'd still say it was doing a disservice to the original Christian Ashley.  Especially if it was changed out of fear or censorship.

Like I said, it's not original --> Final. Any writer should know that.

Modifié par Collider, 12 mars 2010 - 07:51 .

[Ryzaki]

Uh...didn't they say the dialogue was one of the the last part to be done for the game? So in that place...yeah...one would think the characters were pretty damn finalized by then.