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[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...

Uh...didn't they say the dialogue was one of the the last part to be done for the game? So in that place...yeah...one would think the characters were pretty damn finalized by then.

What is final is what is in the game and can be accessed by the player without the use of modifications. Anyways, all you are doing is guessing at what stage the voice acting was in. Don't.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Uh...didn't they say the dialogue was one of the the last part to be done for the game? So in that place...yeah...one would think the characters were pretty damn finalized by then.

What is final is what is in the game and can be accessed by the player without the use of modifications. Anyways, all you are doing is guessing at what stage the voice acting was in. Don't.

Uh that's not a guess. Woo said that in a DA related thread...I'll go dig up the link.

[Wittand25]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Uh...didn't they say the dialogue was one of the the last part to be done for the game? So in that place...yeah...one would think the characters were pretty damn finalized by then.

What is final is what is in the game and can be accessed by the player without the use of modifications. Anyways, all you are doing is guessing at what stage the voice acting was in. Don't.

Uh that's not a guess. Woo said that in a DA related thread...I'll go dig up the link.

No the dialog needs to be recorded before they can attempt to create any cutscene, otherwise it would be next to impossible to match text and visuals.
But is not the Jack diolog the only one that actually has an ending opposed to just ending,(e.g. the Tali romance could be enabled by only adding lines to what she says and therfore would not change anything about her, whereas the Jack romance would require changing her last line) ?
What I want to say is that allowing a s/s romance for some of the LI would not require them to be retconed but merly expanded.

[Ryzaki]

Wittand25 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Uh...didn't they say the dialogue was one of the the last part to be done for the game? So in that place...yeah...one would think the characters were pretty damn finalized by then.

What is final is what is in the game and can be accessed by the player without the use of modifications. Anyways, all you are doing is guessing at what stage the voice acting was in. Don't.

Uh that's not a guess. Woo said that in a DA related thread...I'll go dig up the link.

No the dialog needs to be recorded before they can attempt to create any cutscene, otherwise it would be next to impossible to match text and visuals.
But is not the Jack diolog the only one that actually has an ending opposed to just ending,(e.g. the Tali romance could be enabled by only adding lines to what she says and therfore would not change anything about her, whereas the Jack romance would require changing her last line) ?
What I want to say is that allowing a s/s romance for some of the LI would not require them to be retconed but merly expanded.

Tha'ts what I said one of the last thing created. One would assume it would be VO then lipsynching.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Uh...didn't they say the dialogue was one of the the last part to be done for the game? So in that place...yeah...one would think the characters were pretty damn finalized by then.

What is final is what is in the game and can be accessed by the player without the use of modifications. Anyways, all you are doing is guessing at what stage the voice acting was in. Don't.

Uh that's not a guess. Woo said that in a DA related thread...I'll go dig up the link.

That's not the point. The point is that you don't know at what exact moment they did the voice acting nor do you know the exact moment they cut the same sex romances. Why not just accept that these characters are of the sexuality that they are and hope for ME3 romances that are gay or bisexual?

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Uh...didn't they say the dialogue was one of the the last part to be done for the game? So in that place...yeah...one would think the characters were pretty damn finalized by then.

What is final is what is in the game and can be accessed by the player without the use of modifications. Anyways, all you are doing is guessing at what stage the voice acting was in. Don't.

Uh that's not a guess. Woo said that in a DA related thread...I'll go dig up the link.

That's not the point. The point is that you don't know at what exact moment they did the voice acting nor do you know the exact moment they cut the same sex romances. Why not just accept that these characters are of the sexuality that they are and hope for ME3 romances that are gay or bisexual?

Uh...were did I say there were necessarily any sexuality? <_<

I am of the opinion that none of us know jack squat about the characters sexuality other than the fact that character X expresses an interest in either Male or Female Shepard. Unlike the rest of you lot I don't go on a "they must be straight because they can fall in love with F!Shep or they must be bi or they must be gay!" to me each character's sexuality is a question mark unless either the character or the writers comes out and says X character is gay, straight, or bi. Seeing as no one has currently done that...

And what do you mean that's not the point? If the lines were fully written and they had to start cutting things out because of time and couldn't waste money and resources with the VO does that not suggest that the characters are not as set in stone as a lot of you seem to be suggesting? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 mars 2010 - 08:51 .

[Collider]

In a practical sense, these characters are heterosexual as their romance pertains to the opposite sex. That's the best evidence we have to their sexuality, in addition to them not being romances for the same sex. As Male and Female Shepards can behave in the exact same way, I don't see little reason for one gender to be accepted for romance but the other not to be if the character is bisexual. As far as MShep x Kaidan and other stuff like that goes, I wouldn't expect it in the least. A whole new romance just for male shepards who let Kaidan live? Unlikely. My advice is to hope for gay or bisexual characters in ME3 rather than debate over the sexualities of existing characters when we already have evidence that they definitely like the opposite sex.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

In a practical sense, these characters are heterosexual as their romance pertains to the opposite sex. That's the best evidence we have to their sexuality, in addition to them not being romances for the same sex. As Male and Female Shepards can behave in the exact same way, I don't see little reason for one gender to be accepted for romance but the other not to be if the character is bisexual. As far as MShep x Kaidan and other stuff like that goes, I wouldn't expect it in the least. A whole new romance just for male shepards who let Kaidan live? Unlikely. My advice is to hope for gay or bisexual characters in ME3 rather than debate over the sexualities of existing characters when we already have evidence that they definitely like the opposite sex.

*shakes head* We're not going to agree on that so let's just agree to disagree. Saves time and energy.

[didymos1120]

diskoh wrote...
Yeah, seriously. After my first accidentally flirty conversation with [Jacob], I went back and chose the renegade options. Surprise.... she still flirts.

Avoiding romance with that rude *ss is harder than defeating the collectors.

Really?  I didn't find it difficult at all.  I managed to be nice to him and completely avoid the actual romance stuff from even appearing.  It ended up coming off more like FemShep was just needling the uptight, overly formal guy a bit until he mellowed out.  Still, I do agree that was uneccessary, and I was annoyed by the transparent "HEY: YOU SHOULD TOTALLY MAKE HER BANG THIS GUY" signals.

[xDarkicex]

Lest time I checked bioware was open to LGBT, so why is this game Left in the closet, they even have scripts written for gay content that was apparently scrapped.

Although to be fair in one of my playthroughs Mordin did ask me if I was hitting on him but all the avalible responces where straight funny thing mordin lookeds sad when I told him I was not that into him. LOL

Modifié par xDarkicex, 12 mars 2010 - 09:07 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

I think it is time for me as an hetero to show my support again. I rather post it in here than add some fuel in the other thread. Let's hope that BW ends the debate in ME3 by adding a couple of same-sex LIs. Have fun.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 12 mars 2010 - 09:29 .

[Arik7]

Just another reminded to all the supporters of same-sex romance in the Mass Effect games: please do NOT post in the hate thread. You are only helping their cause. Thank you!

[Wittand25]

Arik7 wrote...

Just another reminded to all the supporters of same-sex romance in the Mass Effect games: please do NOT post in the hate thread. You are only helping their cause. Thank you!

I think honest and polite responses are ok and even beneficial to our cause, but we must remain at all cost from trolling or another form of harassment. Keeping out of it alltogether would be bad because there are a few posters or readers who just want to know what the fuzz is all about and those can be confinced to side with us rather with them, or I hope so atöeast.

Modifié par Wittand25, 12 mars 2010 - 11:46 .

[Lightice_av]

It is unwise to send anything at all. It will not result in beneficial results, no matter how well-spoken and polite you are. Those people are digging their own graves by demonstrating their immaturity and spam-happy ways. They'll get locked like every other hate-thread in the past, sooner or later.

Although to be fair in one of my playthroughs Mordin did ask me
if I was hitting on him but all the avalible responces where straight
funny thing mordin lookeds sad when I told him I was not that into him.
LOL

 
Considering that he's a salarian and completely lacks any sexual drive, and probably even equipment, it's pretty clear that he's not being serious.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 12 mars 2010 - 11:51 .

[Arik7]

Lightice_av wrote...

It is unwise to send anything at all. It will not result in beneficial results, no matter how well-spoken and polite you are. Those people are digging their own graves by demonstrating their immaturity and spam-happy ways. They'll get locked like every other hate-thread in the past, sooner or later.

THIS.  Don't give the hate thread a shred of credibility by posting there.  The thread is self-explanatory.

[Charsen]

didymos1120 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...
 Kenneth (the male engineer) might work, him or a new character.

He's not a good choice for a gay LI, actually.  He openly lusts after Miranda in one exchange you can overhear, and later gets very intrigued by Jack's "clothing" (it's the murder thing that puts him off), and finally has some very complimentary things to say about his new boss Tali (who can hear him).  I.e., he's pretty clearly defined as a hetero dog.  Better to bring in a new character, I think.

I didn't hear him talk about miranda, but there is no doubt i just wasn't paying attention. I did hear him say something about Tali's outfit but I can't recall exactly... it was something appreciative of her figure iirc.

The reason i am not sure i would like a new character is because then that guy would be known as "the gay guy" instead of what he was previously known as... and while i guess this is a minor point, i'd rather for the male fling (kelly's counterpart) to be an established member of the crew and not something tacked on like a band-aid.

but honestly, this is all moot because if they did ANYTHING i would be happy.

[Wittand25]

Off Topic:Ok I just checked and saw that colossos opened the same thread in every ME-related forum on the social site, you are right they dont nead any help at looking bad, I still will lurk the threads and answer questions through pm in the future.



On Topic:Considering male Shepard went through quite a dry spell I would even accept a fling in an bar on a planet that Shepard can invite back to his cabin.

But I would prefare if they just unlocked one of the LI of each sex for both Shepards (this would probably even involve less work than creating a new fling)

[SirGladiator]

I agree with the earlier comment that none of the crewmates are 'defined' in terms of straight/not straight. The best example is Jack, who is both openly bisexual and only romancable by MaleShep. Another good example is Ashley from ME1. She seems straight when romanced by Maleshep, true, but when you use the mod and play her romance as FemShep, the dialogue still being totally gender neutral, she COMPLETELY seems like a lesbian (there are even comments about how 'I dont need a man to make me happy'), she actually seems more into women when romanced by FemShep than she does into men when romanced by MaleShep. Literally the only thing that makes her seem straight to anybody is the fact that her romance with FemShep was disabled. And thats fine, if you want to imagine her as straight its your game and you should be able to, same for me, its my game and during my playthrough she's only into women . Thats the best way to do it I think, keep the dialogue gender-neutral, and let the player decide. Just like the rest of the game, its best when the player has the option rather than taking it away from him/her.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

SirGladiator wrote...

I agree with the earlier comment that none of the crewmates are 'defined' in terms of straight/not straight. The best example is Jack, who is both openly bisexual and only romancable by MaleShep. Another good example is Ashley from ME1. She seems straight when romanced by Maleshep, true, but when you use the mod and play her romance as FemShep, the dialogue still being totally gender neutral, she COMPLETELY seems like a lesbian (there are even comments about how 'I dont need a man to make me happy'), she actually seems more into women when romanced by FemShep than she does into men when romanced by MaleShep. Literally the only thing that makes her seem straight to anybody is the fact that her romance with FemShep was disabled. And thats fine, if you want to imagine her as straight its your game and you should be able to, same for me, its my game and during my playthrough she's only into women . Thats the best way to do it I think, keep the dialogue gender-neutral, and let the player decide. Just like the rest of the game, its best when the player has the option rather than taking it away from him/her.

Exactly. I don't understand why some people feel LI's lose validity if someone, somewhere, is romancing them in a same sex romance on their own game.

In response to the argument about characters sexuality's already being established so making them bi would seem tacked on - in Mass Effect 2 Tali and Garrus are both suddenly into an entirely different species, after showing no romantic interest in Shepard in ME1.

[didymos1120]

Wittand25 wrote...

Off Topic:Ok I just checked and saw that colossos opened the same thread in every ME-related forum on the social site, you are right they dont nead any help at looking bad, I still will lurk the threads and answer questions through pm in the future.

"I always made one prayer to God, a very short one. Here it is: 'O Lord, make our enemies quite ridiculous!' God granted it." -- Voltaire

[KillTheLastRomantic]

didymos1120 wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Off Topic:Ok I just checked and saw that colossos opened the same thread in every ME-related forum on the social site, you are right they dont nead any help at looking bad, I still will lurk the threads and answer questions through pm in the future.

"I always made one prayer to God, a very short one. Here it is: 'O Lord, make our enemies quite ridiculous!' God granted it." -- Voltaire

I wouldn't mind that much if it really was about voicing their opinions but looking at the thread, its blatantly offensive and bigoted and yet its gone on for about 26 pages without being locked.

[didymos1120]

Charsen wrote...
I didn't hear him talk about miranda, but there is no doubt i just wasn't paying attention.

Here's the clip.  He mentions that her uniform causes him to "stand at attention".  Here's the one where he learns about Jack's wardrobe choices.  And, for others who haven't run across the Tali one, Youtube's got that too.

[tyddrwsau]

didymos1120 wrote...

Kyanos1a wrote...

I still stand by wanting a normal kinda guy for a LI instead of some morally bankrupt misfit that gets tacked on. And maybe an Irish accent

Then you have to watch out for "Jacob Syndrome".  I.e., they make a decent, regular dude who just does his job and handles his sh!t, and then people hate him 'cause he seems so boring compared to all the other angsted-out lunatics running around demanding your attention.  It's quite possible to have someone colorful and interesting without them being another Zevran.

I'm completely behind the idea of a "normal kinda guy" as same-sex male LI. I don't think that one needs to be dull in order to be normal - normal people have their own idiosyncrasies and traits that can make them as interesting (and perhaps more believable and approachable) than an over-the-top mix of archetypes.

At the same time, when...

Tavanaka wrote...
We shouldn't be asking for GAY characters, we should be asking for STUNNING characters who are also gay.

I also agree. I think it comes back to the idea that believably "normal" people who adapt gracefully to extraordinary circumstances (like the story of Mass Effect) are truly stunning.

Tavanaka, with respect to your question about the "desire to change certain favorites" it's a complicated question. In real life, naturally, it's not a good thing to try to force someone's sexuality to change: real people have their own identities. Fictional characters on the other hand, especially those left open to the possibility of being bisexual during parts of their development, are - and should be! - malleable with respect to how their stories unfold. Specifically on this subject, the themes of partial development, whether romances with aliens even qualify as gay or straight, and related issues come up time and time again.

From a game development point of view, there's are a number of reasons why many of us keep coming back to characters who are already in the game. I think that most of us who'd like same-sex romances to be included would welcome a new character who is gay or lesbian or bi. In response to that idea, detractors pounce and say "why should BioWare waste development resources on a character who's only romanceable by some (exaggerated small number) of players?" Adapting (or restoring, if you will) existing characters as bi love interests makes use of assets already developed, and creates the potential for a more seamless integration without loads of extra effort. Detractors then jump on and say "don't retcon my characters! I'd hate so and so if he was bi!" It's a no win circular argument with those against, it seems.

Then there's the question of what we as players have to identify with already. In our threads we've brought up ideas of possible new LIs for same-sex options. The one that's gotten the most discussion is Hendel Mitra from the Ascension novel: he's an established gay character and we know who he is. We've also tossed out the idea of a scientist, a doctor, a fighter pilot, a communications and intel expert, an engineer... but these are amorphous concepts, any of which are possible and it seems silly to try to detail any one of them too far when really it's BioWare's Mass Effect team who does the writing. We've said most of us would rather a more visually/culturally "masculine" "casually excellent warrior-type" more than someone developed with stereotypes in mind in pursuit of some nebulous idea of what makes a character "believably gay." (That goes back to the "normal guy" and "stunning character who happens to be gay" issues quoted at the start of this post.)

With the existing characters, we've got squad mates already developed by BioWare whom we've come to know and appreciate through playing the game. It's so much easier to say: I like this character! and discuss it further (especially with the context of disappointment over apparent partial development) than it is to say "I like this general concept for a character that we just made up."

[diskoh]

Arik7 wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

It is unwise to send anything at all. It will not result in beneficial results, no matter how well-spoken and polite you are. Those people are digging their own graves by demonstrating their immaturity and spam-happy ways. They'll get locked like every other hate-thread in the past, sooner or later.

THIS.  Don't give the hate thread a shred of credibility by posting there.  The thread is self-explanatory.

Don't underestimate engaging them.

People in this thread have proven good at ignoring the trolls. However, in that thread, the antis were all successfully trolled for 20+ pages and it ended with them defending their admitted affiliation with the Naz i party.

Engaging them gave this thread more credibility as reasoned and peaceful because this cause is about more than trolling. Theirs isn't.

Modifié par diskoh, 12 mars 2010 - 04:25 .

[DaeJi]

didymos1120 wrote...

Then you have to watch out for "Jacob Syndrome".  I.e., they make a decent, regular dude who just does his job and handles his sh!t, and then people hate him 'cause he seems so boring compared to all the other angsted-out lunatics running around demanding your attention.  It's quite possible to have someone colorful and interesting without them being another Zevran.

Normal, down to Earth love interests do work a lot of the time though. Alistair and Kaidan are very popular among both women and men. I think the biggest problem with Jacob isn't who he is but how femShep talks to him.