7455 réponses à ce sujet

[ScotGaymer]

Torpasia wrote...

Collider wrote...

Charsen wrote...
The reason i am not sure i would like a new character is because then that guy would be known as "the gay guy" instead of what he was previously known as... and while i guess this is a minor point, i'd rather for the male fling (kelly's counterpart) to be an established member of the crew and not something tacked on like a band-aid.

If all that is required for a character to be known as "the gay guy" is for him to be gay, then it's not something that can be avoided. The best course of action in my opinion would be to make a squadmate or NPC that is fully fledged and does not mention his sexuality until Male Shepard shows interest in him. Just have an obvious romance dialogue choice like

"I'm interested in you romantically"

upon choosing this, male Shepard does not need to say it so bluntly, but now this male character can begin to flirt with male shepard.

What would be the point in introducing a new romance in the final installment of the trilogy, when it has nowhere to go? It would be far too late to go anywhere with it.

There's no reason they can't just go with the bi romances they were planning to begin with. It wouldn't be retconning; at least, not with Tali. Thane, he was married to a woman, so that's iffy.

On this note I do believe the best option would be Kaidan.

[Arik7]

diskoh wrote...

Bioware is treading dangerous ground by letting this neo-naz element take root here.

[Collider]

Torpasia wrote...
What would be the point in introducing a new romance in the final installment of the trilogy, when it has nowhere to go? It would be far too late to go anywhere with it.

That isn't true. For the most part, barring Kaidan/Ash/Liara camoes, the romances have all been in one game yet have been received well except for Jacob. There is no reason why Bioware could not make a gay or bisexual male character in ME3 and have gay/bi men be satisfied with it. Gay/bi men don't even have anything whatsoever in Mass Effect, I'm sure they'd deal with the fact that it wouldn't be a romance that was continued from ME1 or ME2.

There's no reason they can't just go with the bi romances they were planning to begin with. It wouldn't be retconning; at least, not with Tali. Thane, he was married to a woman, so that's iffy.

It's retconning due to the fact that these characters were not romanceable for the same gender but would be with the addition of a patch or DLC. You couldn't say that Tali would not be retconning but Thane would be iffy. There are plenty of bisexual men who have married women.

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...

Agree completely. Don't change existing characters. Just make new gay or bisexual characters.

It would be cheaper and easier to just make a couple of the existing options bisexual, but either way works.

Cheaper and easier do not mean better, nor do you actually know whether it is cheaper and easier. Editing code is sometimes harder than creating code. As far as cheaper goes you would need to host the DLC somewhere. And what you have not mentioned is value. Is it worth spending money retconning these characters? You may say that you don't like weapon or mission DLC, but weapon/armor and mission DLC will be used by a far larger audience.

On the subject of value, it is not as if characters need to be made SPECIFICALLY for gay romances. You could omit the romance from Liara and she is still a unique and important character. So - make a character that has some use other than the romance and just have them happen to be gay or bi. That's more valuable than retconning characters.

[Lightice_av]

Cheaper and easier do not mean better, nor do you actually know whether it is cheaper and easier. Editing code is sometimes harder than creating code.

It wouldn't be editing code. The code for making conversations and implementing them in the game already exists. The infrastructure for spreading it already exists.

As I've said uncountable times, I don't consider such a DLC least bit probable, but I don't see anything bad about it, either.

So - make a character that has some use other than the romance and just have them happen to be gay or bi.

That should be given about any character, straight or gay.

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...

Cheaper and easier do not mean better, nor do you actually know whether it is cheaper and easier. Editing code is sometimes harder than creating code.

It wouldn't be editing code. The code for making conversations and implementing them in the game already exists. The infrastructure for spreading it already exists.

Uh, yes it would be. The fact that you can't romance them as same sex means you need to edit code. The whole game is code - what you cannot or can do is code.

As I've said uncountable times, I don't consider such a DLC least bit probable,

I apologize if you thought I said that you considered it probable.

but I don't see anything bad about it, either.

I do.

That should be given about any character, straight or gay.

I said it in response to your post about DLC. I am saying that we do not know the costs of having that kind of DLC versus the costs of having a new character be gay/bi. And in my opinion, it is preferrable to create new gay or bi characters.

[Ryzaki]

LOL @ editing code: I'm sure if modders can do it for free and usually within a short time period after the release of the game (it was like what? 3 weeks after DA came out that there was a gay Alistiar mod?) it can't be that expensive or difficult.

Now the VA that might run up some money.

And frankly as a writer if one of my friends told me that Serpenvio was straight and completely unable to be anything else and that anything else would be OOC because he was married to a woman and had a kid I'd laugh at her. (Then again there's enough foe yay between him and Zeph to fill a novel...)

Personally I get irked when people assume what a writer wanted X character to do/be. Unless the character (or writer) comes out and says it all you're doing is making speculations.

Even if I really really want Axel to be in love with Roxas.

Or Sora with Kairi and Riku....

Or Harry to have been given a love potion by Ginny because his feelings came out of bloody left field.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 mars 2010 - 01:59 .

[Lightice_av]

Uh, yes it would be. The fact that you can't romance them as same sex means you need to edit code. The whole game is code - what you cannot or can do is code.

The code is made so that it's easy to make simple additions or cut parts out. That's what makes the DLC possible in the first place, and allows easy editing during the game's design. The game's code does not have to be altered in order to add new content any more than you need to alter the code of Windows to add new programs.

[Torpasia]

It's just that Tali never states her preferences one way or another, so opening up her female romance, which, to the best of my knowledge, was already in development, wouldn't affect her character at all.



You make a fair point about Thane, but it would still be slightly more of a stretch. They had originally written him as bisexual, so that's a closed case, I guess.

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...

Uh, yes it would be. The fact that you can't romance them as same sex means you need to edit code. The whole game is code - what you cannot or can do is code.

The code is made so that it's easy to make simple additions or cut parts out. That's what makes the DLC possible in the first place, and allows easy editing during the game's design. The game's code does not have to be altered in order to add new content any more than you need to alter the code of Windows to add new programs.

This isn't adding new programs. This is editing existing programs. The romances or "programs" if you will, with Jacob, Thane, Miranda etc already exist. And they happen to exclude same sex romances without modding. Therefore requiring editing of code.

[Collider]

Torpasia wrote...
It's just that Tali never states her preferences one way or another, so opening up her female romance, which, to the best of my knowledge, was already in development, wouldn't affect her character at all.

This is true of most characters brother. Most characters and romances don't outright say that they are only into chicks or dudes. Tali is no different from Thane. She can be intimate with male Shepard, just as Thane has been intimate with his late wife and possibly with femshep.

You make a fair point about Thane, but it would still be slightly more of a stretch. They had originally written him as bisexual, so that's a closed case, I guess.

It's not any more of a stretch than Tali. Both can have relationships with the opposite sex, but never and can't had/have with the same sex. There is no "original" that we know of. Writing isn't original --> final. It's not phase 1 --> phase 2 ---> phase 3 --> etc. Try writing a story that you want to be absolute 100% perfect and your best work ever, and you're likely to edit it over and over again. SuZe may have been "originally" written as a demure professional woman, but would you say that that means that making Jack shy and mild wouldn't be retconning in a DLC? I am aware that that is a far cry from changing sexualities, but my point is what was at one point considered does not and should not have an affect to what the final product is. What is the final product? Thane and Tali and most other LIs are heterosexual in practice.

[HaloKT]

Jack states she isn't into the "girl's club" thing, but that might be referring to a BFF kind of relationship, which she doesn't approve of. Tali doesn't say anything one way or another, but people have apparently dug into the sound files and found out that Tali does in fact have a F/F romance option, which Bioware conveniently left out of the final game.
Which would also explain why Tali doesn't state her preference, because the conversation is just being cut off just before the romance lines start. Just my theory on it though.

Edit:
On mods... this isn't Dragon Age, sadly. If this were Dragon Age, not only were mods commonplace - but we'd have same sex romances as well, seeing as different development teams were responsible for Mass Effect and Dragon Age. The ME part of BioWare doesn't seem as open to sexuality as the DA:O dev team. Or it might be my paranoia acting up again

Modifié par HaloKT, 13 mars 2010 - 02:20 .

[Collider]

HaloKT wrote...
Which would also explain why Tali doesn't state her preference, because the conversation is just being cut off just before the romance lines start. Just my theory on it though.

It doesn't explain why she doesn't state her preference. Most characters don't state their preference. Including Jacob. That doesn't mean that Jacob was at one point considered for an M/M romance.

[HaloKT]

Collider wrote...

HaloKT wrote...
Which would also explain why Tali doesn't state her preference, because the conversation is just being cut off just before the romance lines start. Just my theory on it though.

It doesn't explain why she doesn't state her preference. Most characters don't state their preference. Including Jacob. That doesn't mean that Jacob was at one point considered for an M/M romance.

Can't tell for the males, but Jack's reply can be taken as "I'm not into girls". Miranda doesn't really forward any emotional attachment to Shepard whatsoever apart from Shepard being superior to her genetically enhanced buttocks. Tali however does talk about intimacy and how she really likes Shepard and abruptly ends there.
Now I take it that Miranda was never intended to be a F/F romance. It's stated as such in the Prima guide if I'm not mistaken (I don't own it, just read about it), so her lack of intimacy is a perfect fit. Jack is ambiguous, but I'm inclined to say that Jack was never intended to be a F/F option neither. Tali however... well, apart from the obvious sound file thing, she does talk a lot about her emotions and about attachment. You can downplay it as "family feelings", but it's still there. And it ends without conclusion.
I believe that those romances (Tali F/F, Thane M/M) were removed from the game very close to release. The voice files are there, means that the script for the voice actors has been present. The Prima guide states there are homosexual romances and Miranda/Jacob are not among them. Means that at the time the guide was in print, those romances were still in the game.
Again, I believe it's Tali and Thane. Can't really tell for the male NPCs though. But on female side, Tali makes the most obvious F/F romance IMO.

[SimonTheFrog]

Collider wrote...

HaloKT wrote...
Which would also explain why Tali doesn't state her preference, because the conversation is just being cut off just before the romance lines start. Just my theory on it though.

It doesn't explain why she doesn't state her preference. Most characters don't state their preference. Including Jacob. That doesn't mean that Jacob was at one point considered for an M/M romance.

Yeah, that's the very convenient thing with the dialog system. 
There were so many places in the game where the most obvious questions mysteriously couldn't be asked. Like "Cerberus??? Where is the exit to this building???"

Anway, i think it's pretty simple, you don't want the existing characters changed. Ok.

I, on the other hand, want new features added to them. For example if Liara get's her DLC, i want to learn new facets about her. Why did she turn so rough? What happened during the 2 years? Did she fall in love with somebody else? Whatever. I want the existing characters to evolve as much as possible (some with more interest than others, sure). There's a high chance that whatever we learn about her gives us a new insight into her character which even might change how we like her. 

For me, adding a new information about attraction and falling in love with people, could be one of the new facets we learn in DLC's.

So, we have two different approaches on how characters should treated through xpacks and DLC's and ME3, obviously.
I can live with that

PS edited for better readability

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 13 mars 2010 - 02:36 .

[Collider]

HaloKT wrote...
Can't tell for the males, but Jack's reply can be taken as "I'm not into girls".

A lot of women intepreted it as not wanting to do the whole girlfriend let's go shopping and talk about boys kind of thing. That makes perfect sense considering how Jack is a loner and generally seems to disbelieve that there are genuine platonic friends.

Tali however does talk about intimacy and how she really likes Shepard and abruptly ends there.

Doesn't matter. Girls and dudes talk about all that junk but it doesn't mean they're ready to jump on eachother. I have a discussion about intimacy with someone male and it does not mean I am sexually attracted to them in anyway. People have also been awkward around the same sex, but that doesn't meant they are gay or bisexual. Sexuality is much more complex then "oh lol he/she is totally gay/bisexual." It's insulting to think that someone can judge your sexuality as if they know all about you. Many times people don't even know their own sexualities.

But on female side, Tali makes the most obvious F/F romance IMO.

I disagree. That would be Jack. Jack actually mentions having sex and relations with females in her history. Tali doesn't.

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...
I disagree. That would be Jack. Jack actually mentions having sex and relations with females in her history. Tali doesn't.

I think either are equally as valid. Jack does have a history and Tali sends rather confusing signals; either (or both!) would make very good female/female love interests.

[SimonTheFrog]

Collider wrote...

HaloKT wrote...
<snip>.

<snip>

But on female side, Tali makes the most obvious F/F romance IMO.

I disagree. That would be Jack. Jack actually mentions having sex and relations with females in her history. Tali doesn't.

Hmm... you're right about that.. .but she also exlicitly says that she won't do the girl's club thingy. What to do... what to do... I HAVE IT! make all bi!!!

<3

[Collider]

DaeJi wrote...
I think either are equally as valid. Jack does have a history and Tali sends rather confusing signals; either (or both!) would make very good female/female love interests.

Just your opinion. Personally I don't think AT ALL that any squad mate would be better than any other squad mate to be het/bi/gay considering the fact that I don't subscribe to stereotypes about sexuality. It's much more complex than that, and it irks me.

Modifié par Collider, 13 mars 2010 - 02:47 .

[Collider]

SimonTheFrog wrote...
Hmm... you're right about that.. .but she also exlicitly says that she won't do the girl's club thingy. What to do... what to do... I HAVE IT! make all bi!!!

<3

Why, just for your titilation? I'll pass.

[DaeJi]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Hmm... you're right about that.. .but she also exlicitly says that she won't do the girl's club thingy. What to do... what to do... I HAVE IT! make all bi!!!

<3

Given the dialog up to that point, I think that Jack was talking about not wanting to be BFFAE (best friends forever and ever). Didn't sound like a turn down for a relationship.

[HaloKT]

1.) I have already said so in my above post, didn't feel the need to say it again. But it's the "conclusion" of her conversation with Femshep, so at least you know what's up.



2.) I never said aynthign about "linking my suit" with anyone I didn't feel absolutely comfortable with. You're understimating what this means to her. It's not "talking about that junk", she's basically saying you she's willing to give up being a "suit virgin" for you. You might think of that as not very impressive, but I thought of it as absolutely sweet and yes, it left me hoping. for all we know, this could be the Quarian equivalent of shagging each other silly, although that might just be me overreacting *cough*



3.) Jack's too obviously butch. Plus she has had only one threesome with couple. And from the sounds of it she didn't particularly enjoy it.

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...
Just your opinion. Personally I don't think AT ALL that any squad mate would be better than any other squad mate to be het/bi/gay considering the fact that I don't subscribe to stereotypes about sexuality. It's much more complex than that, and it irks me.

What stereotypes? I just said that Jack and Tali had the best chemistry with femShep.

[SimonTheFrog]

HaloKT wrote...

1.) I have already said so in my above post, didn't feel the need to say it again. But it's the "conclusion" of her conversation with Femshep, so at least you know what's up.

2.) I never said aynthign about "linking my suit" with anyone I didn't feel absolutely comfortable with. You're understimating what this means to her. It's not "talking about that junk", she's basically saying you she's willing to give up being a "suit virgin" for you. You might think of that as not very impressive, but I thought of it as absolutely sweet and yes, it left me hoping. for all we know, this could be the Quarian equivalent of shagging each other silly, although that might just be me overreacting *cough*

3.) Jack's too obviously butch. Plus she has had only one threesome with couple. And from the sounds of it she didn't particularly enjoy it.

From what i've seen in forums and different places quite a lot of femShep players thought they were actually pursuing a LI with Tali. Up until the looping began... 

[HaloKT]

There's nothing stereotypical about Tali IMO. She's just a normal Quarian girl. I can't see anything stereotypical about her. She could basically be Gabby in a protection suit.
Jack however is very masculine and tough, plus has that butch appearance. She has cliché written all over her tattoos. That's why she can't be a F/F LI. Everyone would just say "yeah, of course... the butch girl".

And pray tell, at which point exactly does Jack have any chemistry at all with Femshep? All the "chemistry" is reserved for Dudesheps and starts right after Jack dismisses you with her "I'm not into the girls' club" message. All we get is the b*tch acting up from start to end.

Edit:
Simon, I'm one of them. I was sooo giddy when she told me about the suit linking stuff, and how it's so important to her and she's still a virgin and what have you. And then? Nothing. 

Modifié par HaloKT, 13 mars 2010 - 02:56 .