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[DaeJi]

HaloKT wrote...

And pray tell, at which point exactly does Jack have any chemistry at all with Femshep? All the "chemistry" is reserved for Dudesheps and starts right after Jack dismisses you with her "I'm not into the girls' club" message. All we get is the b*tch acting up from start to end.

Jack has the same chemistry with femShep that she had with MShep up until the relationship tipping point. She also has a vague history that may point to those leanings. That would make her an easier sell than, say, Miranda. If I had to choose between her and Tali, I would say that Tali is the better option, but Jack could work.

I also didn't really find her that stereotypically butch. Sure she's tough and manish, but break she uses that to cover her pain. I think she's a lot softer than she comes off as.

[Collider]

DaeJi wrote...
What stereotypes? I just said that Jack and Tali had the best chemistry with femShep.

Saying they have the best chemistry in a game where you can play Female Shepard as paragon, neutral, or renegade, goofy or serious, badass or flower, is very silly.

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...
Saying they have the best chemistry in a game where you can play Female Shepard as paragon, neutral, or renegade, goofy or serious, badass or flower, is very silly.

Varied as Shepard is, the compansion tend to act the same for the most part regardless of how you act. There is only so much room for dialog.

[Collider]

2.) I never said aynthign about "linking my suit" with anyone I didn't feel absolutely comfortable with. You're understimating what this means to her. It's not "talking about that junk", she's basically saying you she's willing to give up being a "suit virgin" for you. You might think of that as not very impressive, but I thought of it as absolutely sweet and yes, it left me hoping. for all we know, this could be the Quarian equivalent of shagging each other silly, although that might just be me overreacting *cough*

Linking suits is not necessarily sexual or indicative of romantic feelings. For example, Shala'Ran Tali's "auntie" linked suits with Tali's mother yet it was obvious that they did not have sex (they were friends). Linking suits is a gesture of trust and friendship, as it is quite dangerous. What Tali is saying to female Shepard is that she would trust her enough. I can say that I would trust my friend with my life, that doesn't mean I'm gay or I want him in bed.

My real point is that I don't like people saying that characters are conclusively x sexuality when you can't even have a romance with them as that gender. The stereotype, btw, DaeJi, is that people think that friendships in media such as video games and movies are indicative of romantic feelings. When they need not be. If someone said that they thought I was interested in my platonic friends I'd be very annoyed at all people thinkign they can analyze my sexuality.

[Collider]

DaeJi wrote...

Collider wrote...
Saying they have the best chemistry in a game where you can play Female Shepard as paragon, neutral, or renegade, goofy or serious, badass or flower, is very silly.

Varied as Shepard is, the compansion tend to act the same for the most part regardless of how you act. There is only so much room for dialog.

It doesn't only matter how they act. Chemistry isn't chemistry unless both people are suited. Female Shepard can act in any way. She can be a jerk or a saint. She can be the most heroic she can be or the most cowardly. She can be selfless or selfish. She can treat her squad mates as trash, she can treat her squad mates as best friends.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Collider wrote...
Saying they have the best chemistry in a game where you can play Female Shepard as paragon, neutral, or renegade, goofy or serious, badass or flower, is very silly.

Varied as Shepard is, the compansion tend to act the same for the most part regardless of how you act. There is only so much room for dialog.

It doesn't only matter how they act. Chemistry isn't chemistry unless both people are suited. Female Shepard can act in any way. She can be a jerk or a saint. She can be the most heroic she can be or the most cowardly. She can be selfless or selfish. She can treat her squad mates as trash, she can treat her squad mates as best friends.

...then wouldn't the same thing apply for MShep? 

[Collider]

HaloKT wrote...

There's nothing stereotypical about Tali IMO. She's just a normal Quarian girl. I can't see anything stereotypical about her.

I did not say that Tali nor any other character was stereotypical. What I was saying is that people seem to be using stereotypical thinking to say that "this character is bisexual" or "she's the most likely or fitting to be bisexual." What I am arguing is that sexuality is more complex than that, it is not fair IMO to say that in any way that any character we are talking about is most suited towards heterosexuality bisexuality or homosexuality. Even saying that they are is using stereotypes.

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...
 The stereotype, btw, DaeJi, is that people think that friendships in media such as video games and movies are indicative of romantic feelings. When they need not be. If someone said that they thought I was interested in my platonic friends I'd be very annoyed at all people thinkign they can analyze my sexuality.

Friendship in fiction, especiall fiction where romance between characters is a large part of it, tends to be treated as a possible relationship in the making; nature of the beast. In Mass Effect it gets tricker since depending on Shepard's gender he or she can have a relationship with his or her squadmates and the dialog tends to be the same for each. Plus, I am looking at this from the point of view of who would make  a goo romance partner for femShep, so in that context I am looking at their interaction as a possible inducation of "more than friends" feelings.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote......
then wouldn't the same thing apply for MShep? 

I never said anything about male shepard. But yes, saying that male shepard in general has chemistry with any squad mate is silly too.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote......
then wouldn't the same thing apply for MShep? 

I never said anything about male shepard. But yes, saying that male shepard in general has chemistry with any squad mate is silly too.

Oh okay. So Shep has no chemistry with Tali yet for some reason romances her. Makes perfect sense.

[SimonTheFrog]

I know what "chemistry" means and i agree, but it IS kinda too vague to really be used as an argument.

[Collider]

DaeJi wrote...
Friendship in fiction, especiall fiction where romance between characters is a large part of it, tends to be treated as a possible relationship in the making; nature of the beast.

It is a stereotype that friendship means romance. I'm sure you've heard of the stereotypes where a man hugging another man who is not family is gay.

I am looking at this from the point of view of who would make  a goo romance partner for femShep, so in that context I am looking at their interaction as a possible inducation of "more than friends" feelings.

Here in lies the problem I have with you DaeJi. Female Shepard can act in so many different ways. One femShep can act complete opposite of another. I don't see how Miranda would not be on the same level as the other female characters for a femshep. Why wouldn't Miranda have more than friends feelings?

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...
Oh okay. So Shep has no chemistry with Tali yet for some reason romances her. Makes perfect sense.

What the hell are you talking about? I am saying that saying Shepard IN GENERAL having chemistry with any squad mate is silly considering how different Shepard can act. Got it?

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...

It doesn't only matter how they act. Chemistry isn't chemistry unless both people are suited. Female Shepard can act in any way. She can be a jerk or a saint. She can be the most heroic she can be or the most cowardly. She can be selfless or selfish. She can treat her squad mates as trash, she can treat her squad mates as best friends.

I am looking at this as Shepard being interested in them as lovers. I think the case of this discussion that is the way to look at Shepard's behavior.

[Collider]

DaeJi wrote...
I am looking at this as Shepard being interested in them as lovers.

Anyone can be interested in anyone. If that's all that matters, than Miranda should be equally as suited as Jack or Ashley to you. She could also be interested in female Shepard.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Oh okay. So Shep has no chemistry with Tali yet for some reason romances her. Makes perfect sense.

What the hell are you talking about? I am saying that saying Shepard IN GENERAL having chemistry with any squad mate is silly considering how different Shepard can act. Got it?

Uh I obviously understood that. So to say any Shepard has chemistry with any character is out and out lies (IN GENERAL doesn't cut it seeing as how MShep and FShep have nealry the same dialogue up til the romance convos) so Shep pretty much starts a relationship without any chemistry towards the LI. Unless you count FShep's hobag convo with Jacob...which did carry over in MSheps convo with Jacob to me anyways.

Your whole argument is that people can't interpret things differently. So what if someone thinks Tali has chemistry with FShep? World isn't going to explode.

Seems weird to me. *shrugs*

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...

Here in lies the problem I have with you DaeJi. Female Shepard can act in so many different ways. One femShep can act complete opposite of another. I don't see how Miranda would not be on the same level as the other female characters for a femshep. Why wouldn't Miranda have more than friends feelings?

We are talking about what squadmates would be a good match for a female/female relationship; there's no reason to look at any other Shepard but the one who is friendly and maybe interested in a relationship. The many faces of Shepard falls under a broader heading, one about how the way Shepard acts affects those around her. If I'm thinking about what female squadmates work as a love interest for femShep, why would I consider any other Shepard but super nice love everything Shepard?

Collider wrote...
Anyone can be interested in anyone. If
that's all that matters, than Miranda should be equally as suited as
Jack or Ashley to you. She could also be interested in female Shepard.

Jack does have a history which could lead into a relationship and Tali did tell Shepard that she is the only one she would link suits with, which is why I go with them for the most part. Miranda doesn't really have a "lead in" as it were. She could work, I just believe that Jack and Tali are better choices from a developer and storyteller point of view.

Modifié par DaeJi, 13 mars 2010 - 03:23 .

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...
Uh I obviously understood that. So to say any Shepard has chemistry with any character is out and out lies (IN GENERAL doesn't cut it seeing as how MShep and FShep have nealry the same dialogue up til the romance convos)

This isn't a discussion of MShep VS. FSHEP. This is a discussion of Shepard having chemistry in general. Shepard can be a douchebag or not a douchebag. By virtue of that it seems silly to me to see that shepard in general has chemistry. I don't see an **** shepard who doesn't give a **** about anyone as having chemistry for the paragon romance with jack for example.

Your whole argument is that people can't interpret things differently. So what if someone thinks Tali has chemistry with FShep? World isn't going to explode.

Replace Tali with any other heterosexual character and I would be saying the exact same things. People seem to talk about Tali probably because they think it will strike a chord with me considering my signature.

My problem is that it is insulting to say that any of these characters or people in general are "more suited" towards a sexuality. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if people said you, Ryzaki, were more suited towards being a lesbian. You may say because I asked you that you wouldn't care, but then I would ask you if you like it where people think they can analyze your sexuality as if they know everything about you.

[SimonTheFrog]

DaeJi wrote...

Collider wrote...

Here in lies the problem I have with you DaeJi. Female Shepard can act in so many different ways. One femShep can act complete opposite of another. I don't see how Miranda would not be on the same level as the other female characters for a femshep. Why wouldn't Miranda have more than friends feelings?

We are talking about what squadmates would be a good match for a female/female relationship; there's no reason to look at any other Shepard but the one who is friendly and maybe interested in a relationship. The many faces of Shepard falls under a broader heading, one about how the way Shepard acts affects those around her. If I'm thinking about what female squadmates work as a love interest for femShep, why would I consider any other Shepard but super nice love everything Shepard?

Collider wrote...
Anyone can be interested in anyone. If
that's all that matters, than Miranda should be equally as suited as
Jack or Ashley to you. She could also be interested in female Shepard.

Jack does have a history which could lead into a relationship and Tali did tell Shepard that she is the only one she would link suits with, which is why I go with them for the most part. Miranda doesn't really have a "lead in" as it were. She could work, I just believe that Jack and Tali are better choices from a developer and storyteller point of view.

Indeed. But to be complicated, Jack kinda likes being talked to with the "renegade" options 

[HaloKT]

Collider wrote...

2.) I never said aynthign about "linking my suit" with anyone I didn't feel absolutely comfortable with. You're understimating what this means to her. It's not "talking about that junk", she's basically saying you she's willing to give up being a "suit virgin" for you. You might think of that as not very impressive, but I thought of it as absolutely sweet and yes, it left me hoping. for all we know, this could be the Quarian equivalent of shagging each other silly, although that might just be me overreacting *cough*

Linking suits is not necessarily sexual or indicative of romantic feelings. For example, Shala'Ran Tali's "auntie" linked suits with Tali's mother yet it was obvious that they did not have sex (they were friends). Linking suits is a gesture of trust and friendship, as it is quite dangerous. What Tali is saying to female Shepard is that she would trust her enough. I can say that I would trust my friend with my life, that doesn't mean I'm gay or I want him in bed.

My real point is that I don't like people saying that characters are conclusively x sexuality when you can't even have a romance with them as that gender. The stereotype, btw, DaeJi, is that people think that friendships in media such as video games and movies are indicative of romantic feelings. When they need not be. If someone said that they thought I was interested in my platonic friends I'd be very annoyed at all people thinkign they can analyze my sexuality.

There is nothing to follow up on that though. And given the simplicity of Mass Effect's relationship system and the lack of intimacy with either Miranda or Jack (although Miranda at least is a friend to you), it is actually very possible that Tali was indeed planned as a female romance. you can deny it anytime you want, but it's just the most "more than friends" moment Femshep has with any of the female crew, including Kelly. Tali's behaviour follows the same pattern as Garrus' or Thane's right before their romance, whereas Miranda and especially Jack show no sings of this.
So yes, naturally I am inclined to say that - given the simple relationship system in this game - Tali is indeed a very possble and plausible F/F romance that just got cut before release. Well, that and the voiceovers for the romance.

Anyway, heading off to bed. It's waaay past bedtime over here, and I guess I'll be kicked out of bed in less than 5 hours 


Edit:
And to be very clear, I don't talk about Tali because of your signature, but rather because I happen to like Tali very much because she hits a nerve with me during those conversations (and especially after the loyalty mission). Maybe not so much sexually, but enough that I want a romance just to be able to snuggle with her

Modifié par HaloKT, 13 mars 2010 - 03:30 .

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Uh I obviously understood that. So to say any Shepard has chemistry with any character is out and out lies (IN GENERAL doesn't cut it seeing as how MShep and FShep have nealry the same dialogue up til the romance convos)

This isn't a discussion of MShep VS. FSHEP. This is a discussion of Shepard having chemistry in general. Shepard can be a douchebag or not a douchebag. By virtue of that it seems silly to me to see that shepard in general has chemistry. I don't see an **** shepard who doesn't give a **** about anyone as having chemistry for the paragon romance with jack for example.

Your whole argument is that people can't interpret things differently. So what if someone thinks Tali has chemistry with FShep? World isn't going to explode.

Replace Tali with any other heterosexual character and I would be saying the exact same things. People seem to talk about Tali probably because they think it will strike a chord with me considering my signature.

My problem is that it is insulting to say that any of these characters or people in general are "more suited" towards a sexuality. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if people said you, Ryzaki, were more suited towards being a lesbian. You may say because I asked you that you wouldn't care, but then I would ask you if you like it where people think they can analyze your sexuality as if they know everything about you.

Uh except I'm an actual human being with thoughts and emotions and can come out and say I'm not a lesbian.

She's a character in a *video game* she's not real. I can call her whatever the hell I want she has no emotions. She's DATA. She does what the programming TELLS her to do. You tell me to do something and there's a chance I'll ignore it. She CANNOT (if you program her to do so). Just like the character in a book. They can't tell me everything about them (they can tell me more than a video game) but like the video character they are restricted to the confines of what the author/ess writes. They have no minds of their own. (A good author can make a character seem real and "give" them life but they will never actually *obtain* it.).

People really, really need to learn the division between fantasy and reality.

None of those characters have true free will just a simple code that tells them what they will and will not (or can and cannot) do. Which can be manipulated within the limits of the program by any individual with enough skills and resources to do so.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 mars 2010 - 03:30 .

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...

My problem is that it is insulting to say that any of these characters or people in general are "more suited" towards a sexuality.

I want to address this one point. My thinking isn't that Tali is more suited to be interested in girls, just that she is more suited for a romantic relationship with Shepard regardless of gender.

[Collider]

DaeJi wrote...
 If I'm thinking about what female squadmates work as a love interest for femShep, why would I consider any other Shepard but super nice love everything Shepard?

Uh because you don't have to? Why say Shepard in general then? Friendly =/= romance btw.

Jack does have a history which could lead into a relationship and Tali did tell Shepard that she is the only one she would link suits with, which is why I go with them for the most part.

Miranda doesn't really have a "lead in" as it were.

Oh is that so? Miranda compliments Male Shepard on being the "perfect" man due to being reconstructed. Why couldn't she compliment female shepard and say that femshep is the "perfect" woman or person? they were both (mshep and femshep) reconstructed and given enhancements. in addition, Miranda worked with both femshep and mshep intimately while attempting to revive him/her. That's plenty of lead in.

She could work, I just believe that Jack and Tali are better choices from a developer and storyteller point of view.

It's not objective. What do we have as definitive evidence? Tali, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Kaidan, Ashley, Donnelly, Anderson are into the opposite sex.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...
Uh except I'm an actual human being with thoughts and emotions and can come out and say I'm not a lesbian.

Doesn't matter. I wouldn't doubt you would still find it offensive. Also, it's not as if every other sentence you say is declaring of your sexuality is it? The same case with these squad mates, most if not all of them do not outright say "I don't like chicks" or "I don't like dudes." Yet people are analyzing them as if they have solid evidence.

People really, really need to learn the division between fantasy and reality.

So says someone who frequently posts in the same sex thread...wanting Kaidan and male shepard. It's fantasy, why should you care?

[DaeJi]

[quote]Collider wrote...
Oh is that so? Miranda compliments Male Shepard on being the "perfect" man due to being reconstructed. Why couldn't she compliment female shepard and say that femshep is the "perfect" woman or person? they were both (mshep and femshep) reconstructed and given enhancements. in addition, Miranda worked with both femshep and mshep intimately while attempting to revive him/her. That's plenty of lead in.

[/quote]

Because Miranda doesn't compliment Shepard on being the perfect woman, and I am only looking at the dialog in the finished game. As for working on her, that just makes her romance kind of creepy. I mean, she meet Shepard as a corpse and treated him or her as a science project for two years. It's just... ew.

[quote]Collider wrote...

Uh because you don't have to? Why say Shepard in general then? Friendly =/= romance btw.



[quote]



Huh?

[quote]Collider wrote...

It's not objective. What do
we have as definitive evidence? Tali, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Kaidan,
Ashley, Donnelly, Anderson are into the opposite sex.

[/quote]

Again, I'm looking at it as who could work if I needed someone to work.

Modifié par DaeJi, 13 mars 2010 - 03:35 .