7455 réponses à ce sujet

[HaloKT]

Collider wrote...
Oh is that so? Miranda compliments Male Shepard on being the "perfect" man due to being reconstructed. Why couldn't she compliment female shepard and say that femshep is the "perfect" woman or person? they were both (mshep and femshep) reconstructed and given enhancements. in addition, Miranda worked with both femshep and mshep intimately while attempting to revive him/her. That's plenty of lead in.

She actually does say something along those lines. How she is perfect because of her modifications, but Shepard is already perfect without them. But more in a "friends" tone, with a bit of jealousy. Nothing heartbreaking and romantic like the Tali line I'm obsessing over.

[sw33ts]

Oh is that so? Miranda compliments Male Shepard on being the "perfect" man due to being reconstructed. Why couldn't she compliment female shepard and say that femshep is the "perfect" woman or person? they were both (mshep and femshep) reconstructed and given enhancements. in addition, Miranda worked with both femshep and mshep intimately while attempting to revive him/her. That's plenty of lead in.

I think his point is that, Tali and Jacks dialogue are EXACTLY the same for both people up until it abruptly stops, showing that they were a little lazy when it came to removing it.

With your point, it's obvious they could CLEARLY have people who are just straight seeing how Miranda never flirts with FemShep because she wasn't programmed to. The other two on the other hand were and when it came to clean house when the bioware/mass effect people decided to go against that...they kinda did a bad job and so it still looks like Jack and Tali are quite possibly attracted to FemShep.

If you can have a character that never once leads the same-sex on because she's straight but then you have Tali speaking about linking suits and getting flustered just as she did with maleshep...then it leads me and others to believe she's slightly bicurious...

Modifié par sw33ts, 13 mars 2010 - 03:46 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Uh I obviously understood that. So to say any Shepard has chemistry with any character is out and out lies (IN GENERAL doesn't cut it seeing as how MShep and FShep have nealry the same dialogue up til the romance convos)

This isn't a discussion of MShep VS. FSHEP. This is a discussion of Shepard having chemistry in general. Shepard can be a douchebag or not a douchebag. By virtue of that it seems silly to me to see that shepard in general has chemistry. I don't see an **** shepard who doesn't give a **** about anyone as having chemistry for the paragon romance with jack for example.

Your whole argument is that people can't interpret things differently. So what if someone thinks Tali has chemistry with FShep? World isn't going to explode.

Replace Tali with any other heterosexual character and I would be saying the exact same things. People seem to talk about Tali probably because they think it will strike a chord with me considering my signature.

My problem is that it is insulting to say that any of these characters or people in general are "more suited" towards a sexuality. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if people said you, Ryzaki, were more suited towards being a lesbian. You may say because I asked you that you wouldn't care, but then I would ask you if you like it where people think they can analyze your sexuality as if they know everything about you.

Well... you are nit-picking here. 

In ME, having a romantic, probably sexual moment before killing the endboss expresses "coming together" as a couple. To be perfectly precise, this does NOT automatically set any sexuality. It is in human (and alien?) nature to have a certain pattern of attraction but this does not mean that this will apply to all cases one individual will ever encounter. So, even in the cases where everyone would naturally assume that shepard has a heterosexual encounter with his/her LI would mean, he/she IS heterosexual, we cannot actually assume this without further evidence. In this way, i agree that we shouldn't claim to know the sexuality of the people aboard the Normandy.

But this is not what i would call common sense.

The same way i would not call what Tali expresses towards femShep an unclear, possibly friendly "buddy"-behaviour. If you play the game as a girl and concentrate on the stuff Tali says, you will most probably get the impression that she sees more in you than just her lady-fella. There is a very neat compilation of all romantic hints somewhere on youtube, but i couldn't find it... too bad.

[Collider]

DaeJi wrote...
Because Miranda doesn't compliment Shepard on being the perfect woman,

And Tali is not romanceable by female shepards. How is it different? Doesn't mean that Miranda wasn't friendly with female shepard. As it seems only friendship is the only prerequisite for you.

As I said, it is a stereotype that friendship means romance. I can hug my male buddy and say we're best buds but that doesn't mean I'm into him. I can also say that I trust him (I myself like to be called trustworthy, whether by male or female people) but that doesn't mean I would want to be with him.

and I am only looking at the dialog in the finished game. As for working on her, that just makes her romance kind of creepy. I mean, she meet Shepard as a corpse and treated him or her as a science project for two years. It's just... ew.

Why would it be more creepy for female shepard than male shepard? As I said, that's plenty of lead in. In addition, female shepard can help Miranda with her sister, and express concern for Miranda as well.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Doesn't matter. I wouldn't doubt you would still find it offensive. Also, it's not as if every other sentence you say is declaring of your sexuality is it? The same case with these squad mates, most if not all of them do not outright say "I don't like chicks" or "I don't like dudes." Yet people are analyzing them as if they have solid evidence.

Actually people do very often assume I'm a lesbian. And I always set them straight. Seeing as Tali or any other female hasn't done so (I.E. come out to female Shepard and say "Sorry Shep not interested in females!" ) I'm quite free to keep imagining as I see fit. Same could go for you assuming they're completely straight as well. Just because someone is interested in a person doesn't make them completely heterosexual/homosexual. Usually its a good indicator but to make such an assumption is still...uh a assumption.

Not to mention that they're uh...fictional and thus can't be offended by anything I say unless its programmed into the game for them to react as such.

So says someone who frequently posts in the same sex thread...wanting Kaidan and male shepard. It's fantasy, why should you care?

Entertainment of course. That's why one usually plays games. No one is saying you can't anaylze characters but to act as though they can be insulted is frankly ridculous. I'm quite free to imagine any motivations I want and any of the game's writers should feel free to correct me. WRITERS not other players.

Acting as though they are actual human beings with feelings that can be hurt by me making assumptions about them is silly.

Now if I was to make up something that went against established character traits.

I.E. Tali is evil and eats kittens!

Then I'd expect to get torn into by several people. But for me to think that some dialogue between Tali and FShep is suggestive? No. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 mars 2010 - 03:39 .

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...
And Tali is not romanceable by female shepards. How is it different? Doesn't mean that Miranda wasn't friendly with female shepard. As it seems only friendship is the only prerequisite for you.

As I said, it is a stereotype that friendship means romance. I can hug my male buddy and say we're best buds but that doesn't mean I'm into him. I can also say that I trust him (I myself like to be called trustworthy, whether by male or female people) but that doesn't mean I would want to be with him.

Again, I am looking at this whole thing from the viewpoint of "Okay, I am going to create a DLC that makes one of Shepard's squadmates open to lesbian romance, who do I choose?" What your saying is true, but it's out of context from my points.

Why would it be more creepy for female shepard than male shepard? As I said, that's plenty of lead in. In addition, female shepard can help Miranda with her sister, and express concern for Miranda as well.

Her romance just creeps me out all over, male or female. It works, it does work and works well, but I do find it the creepiest of all of BioWare's love interests.

Modifié par DaeJi, 13 mars 2010 - 03:40 .

[Collider]

See, this is the problem folks. You are interpreting and seem to be saying that these lines are OBJECTIVELY romantic. People can say the exact same things in the exact same tone and the intention can be very different. I can say "you're a really great friend" to one person and have it be platonic. Or I could say "you're a really great friend" to another person and deep down I want to be more than friends. Bioware cuts resource costs by having a lot of dialogue be gender neutral. But Tali's dialogue isn't even completely gender neutral. If you ask her if she's interested she says of course I'm interested in a dashing man.

We do not have conclusive evidence on whether most/all characters are bisexual or not, whereas we have evidence that they are interested in the opposite sex (romances) or in some cases both sexes as they can romance both sexes.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...
Actually people do very often assume I'm a lesbian. And I always set them straight.

Do you like and think it's fair that people assume you're a lesbian? Probably not, as these people do not know all there is to know about you.

Seeing as Tali or any other female hasn't done so (I.E. come out to female Shepard and say "Sorry Shep not interested in females!"

uh, most if not all characters are like this, they do not flat out say that they are not interested in males or females.

Same could go for you assuming they're completely straight as well.

Never assumed they were completely straight. I've only said that they're heterosexual in a practical sense.

[SimonTheFrog]

Collider wrote...

See, this is the problem folks. You are interpreting and seem to be saying that these lines are OBJECTIVELY romantic. People can say the exact same things in the exact same tone and the intention can be very different. I can say "you're a really great friend" to one person and have it be platonic. Or I could say "you're a really great friend" to another person and deep down I want to be more than friends. Bioware cuts resource costs by having a lot of dialogue be gender neutral. But Tali's dialogue isn't even completely gender neutral. If you ask her if she's interested she says of course I'm interested in a dashing man.

We do not have conclusive evidence on whether most/all characters are bisexual or not, whereas we have evidence that they are interested in the opposite sex (romances) or in some cases both sexes as they can romance both sexes.

But when you play as maleShep and talking to Tali, are you completely free of the impression she might see more than a Commander in you BEFORE she actually says the stuff about the dashing commander (i mean the exact point where femshep dialog stops and maleshep continues)?

Because i don't think you are.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Do you like and think it's fair that people assume you're a lesbian? Probably not, as these people do not know all there is to know about you.

Yeah and once again. I am a human being with emotions and can say that I am heterosexual Tali on the other hand A. Doesn't have actual emotions B. Can't actually say she's heterosexual unless programmed and C. Isn't even aware of this discussion board. oh and D. Can become attracted to FShep if programmed to do so

Someone can call me lesbian until the cows come home isn't going to make me one. Someone could even force me to have sex with a female. Still wouldn't make me into a lesbian. They can not on the other hand reprogram my emotions and mind like they can with Tali.

uh, most if not all characters are like this, they do not flat out say that they are not interested in males or females.

That's my point. Anyone other than the writers (or characters themselves) saying the characters are any sexuality is making an assumption.

Never assumed they were completely straight. I've only said that they're heterosexual in a practical sense.

Then why are you saying it goes against established character for her to be interested in FShep?  If she's not completely straight it could mean that she *could* be interested in FShep. Unless you make the assumption that she isn't at all attracted to FShep in that way which is never explained in the game other than the lack of a romance. She doesn't turn FShep down, nor does FShep suggest it. So to assume that if it *was* brought up she wouldn't follow up on it is making an assumption.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 mars 2010 - 03:49 .

[sw33ts]

Forced lesbian sex?!



Collider...I really don't get your point. At all. And I feel like i should cause you've had this discussion numerous times.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Do you like and think it's fair that people assume you're a lesbian? Probably not, as these people do not know all there is to know about you.

Yeah and once again. I am a human being with emotions and can say that I am heterosexual Tali on the other hand.

What I am saying is that that doesn't matter. People could and probably have (if people have ever assumed that you were a lesbian) thought you were a lesbian or probably were without even hearing you say that you're not.

That's my point. Anyone other than the writers (or characters themselves) saying the characters are any sexuality is making an assumption.

That's also my point.

Then why are you saying it goes against established character for her to be interested in FShep? 

Uh, I never said either. And why is it ALWAYS Tali? Jeez, you guys. >_>

I said that retconning is bad. I never said that Kaidan or Harbinger being bisexual in ME3 would be out of character.

[Collider]

sw33ts wrote...

Forced lesbian sex?!

Collider...I really don't get your point. At all. And I feel like i should cause you've had this discussion numerous times.

It's very simple. I dislike people assuming that the squad mates of heterosexual/bisexual/homosexual romances are actually bisexual/homosexual/heterosexual or they are likely or more suited to homosexuality/heterosexuality/bisexuality. Stereotypes are used when people do this. Just as if I said that you sw33ts, are more likely or more suited to be gay or heterosexual. I wouldn't know what I'm talking about, and I wouldn't surprised if you found it offensive.

My other position is that I would not DLC that retcons characters to being open to a gender they previous weren't. I have no qualms whatsoever with new characters in ME3 being gay or bisexual or giant elephants, but for some reason people want to debate with me on my positions

[SimonTheFrog]

Like i said before, it wouldn't be retconning but adding new information ontop of the already existing ones.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

What I am saying is that that doesn't matter. People could and probably have (if people have ever assumed that you were a lesbian) thought you were a lesbian or probably were without even hearing you say that you're not.

It does matter because we.are.discussing.a.FICTIONAL character. Not a real person. Once again She has no emotions she doesn't CARE that we may think she has a crush on her female Commander in some alternate reality where the male doesn't exist. She doesn't CARE. Hell she isn't even AWARE. She can be programmed to do whatever we wish. (Edit: within the bounds of the game code) Are you even reading what I'm typing? At all? No you shouldn't assume a real person's orientation (NM the fact that people do it all the bloody time including me and you too if you're honest with yourself) but we're talking about a fictional character who is there for entertainment. I can say anything I want about her and it won't affect her. Her fans on the other hand...

Uh, I never said either. And why is it ALWAYS Tali? Jeez, you guys. >_>

I said that retconning is bad. I never said that Kaidan or Harbinger being bisexual in ME3 would be out of character.

Pray tell how is it retconning if it isn't an established fact? <_<

And you never answered the whole Thermal clips either. That's retconning you realize? That's going against an established fact Tali being interested in FShep goes against NOTHING. Now if she stopped being interested in MShep then and ONLY then would it be a retcon.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 mars 2010 - 04:03 .

[Collider]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Like i said before, it wouldn't be retconning but adding new information ontop of the already existing ones.

It is retconning because they were suddenly they're romanceable when they weren't before in the exact same game.

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...

My other position is that I would not DLC that retcons characters to being open to a gender they previous weren't. I have no qualms whatsoever with new characters in ME3 being gay or bisexual or giant elephants, but for some reason people want to debate with me on my positions

Well, this is a thread for debate.

I myself do not feel that the story of Mass Effect 2 is complete and is still involving. I point to Kasami, the upcoming DLC squadmate, as an example. With that in mind, I do believe that any alterations to existing characters, slight alterations such as new dialog or romance avenues, would not be a retcon since it wouldn't be changing anything that is already established. A DLC for Mass Effect would be different, since that game is finished.

Modifié par DaeJi, 13 mars 2010 - 04:08 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Collider wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Like i said before, it wouldn't be retconning but adding new information ontop of the already existing ones.

It is retconning because they were suddenly they're romanceable when they weren't before in the exact same game.

Uh... no?! Shep never asked, the LI's never declined.
No retcon.

For the sceptics it would be very easy to add a line that would perfectly well explain why both haven't brought up the romantic stuff until whenever it happens. Exactly like what they did with Tali ("I'd never thought... oh... good" or so, i don't have the exact words memorized)

[Charsen]

Collider wrote...
I said that retconning is bad. I never said that Kaidan or Harbinger being bisexual in ME3 would be out of character.

Wait... wait wait wait...
Harbinger? 

[DaeJi]

Charsen wrote...

Wait... wait wait wait...
Harbinger? 

It wasn't obvious?

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...
It does matter because we.are.discussing.a.FICTIONAL character.

First of all, I'm not even talking about Tali solely, I'm talking about all characters, so what's your deal?

My point...oh my god, how many times do I need to repeat myself, are people USING STEREOTYPES to say that this character is heterosexual/bisexual/homosexual conclusively, especially given that their romance DOES not pertain to both sexes or x sex. Just as they used stereotypes to assume that you were a lesbian. comprehend now?

And you never answered the whole Thermal clips either. That's retconning you realize?

I don't even see why you bring this up. I never said that I approved of thermal clips storywise. It's not as if Bioware can never make mistakes in my eyes.m

That's going against an established fact Tali being interested in FShep goes against NOTHING. Now if she stopped being interested in MShep then and ONLY then would it be a retcon.

It's retconning because now she's suddenly acting different within a conversation that already exists. It doesn't have to do with whether I think she's bisexual or not, it has to do with her acting differently towards female shepard in the same game when she didn't before pre-patch/DLC.

[Crimmsonwind]

I like the points brought up by the OP. I support same-sex romance. I'm sure a compromise can be reached to appease just about everyone, with some careful discussion. Good luck with the cause, folks.

[FataliTensei]

Collider wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Like i said before, it wouldn't be retconning but adding new information ontop of the already existing ones.

It is retconning because they were suddenly they're romanceable when they weren't before in the exact same game.

By that logic though all DLC would be a retcon though

[Bob5312]

Collider wrote...
It's retconning because now she's suddenly acting different within a conversation that already exists. It doesn't have to do with whether I think she's bisexual or not, it has to do with her acting differently towards female shepard in the same game when she didn't before pre-patch/DLC.

Technically, it's only a retcon if they change the storyline.  If they just add the option it's not a retcon, since it wouldn't affect the story; if you played the game nothing will have changed, if you play it again you get new options which is no more a retcon than, say, adding a new heavy weapon.  Saying 'Shepard is male and Tali is his wife' would be a retcon for anyone that played the game any other way, for example, but adding other options that could be accessed by replaying the game surely wouldn't count.

Though I doubt they'll do it for technical reasons, since I don't think they finished the dialogue for the pre-existing characters or created the appropriate romance scenes.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: FataliTensei said pretty much the same thing much more concisely than I did.

Modifié par Bob5312, 13 mars 2010 - 04:15 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
It does matter because we.are.discussing.a.FICTIONAL character.

First of all, I'm not even talking about Tali solely, I'm talking about all characters, so what's your deal?

My point...oh my god, how many times do I need to repeat myself, are people USING STEREOTYPES to say that this character is heterosexual/bisexual/homosexual conclusively, especially given that their romance DOES not pertain to both sexes or x sex. Just as they used stereotypes to assume that you were a lesbian. comprehend now?

And you never answered the whole Thermal clips either. That's retconning you realize?

I don't even see why you bring this up. I never said that I approved of thermal clips storywise. It's not as if Bioware can never make mistakes in my eyes.m

That's going against an established fact Tali being interested in FShep goes against NOTHING. Now if she stopped being interested in MShep then and ONLY then would it be a retcon.

It's retconning because now she's suddenly acting different within a conversation that already exists. It doesn't have to do with whether I think she's bisexual or not, it has to do with her acting differently towards female shepard in the same game when she didn't before pre-patch/DLC.

once again: there is not romantic conversation with femshep. The subject is not brought up. 
Any subject that has not yet been brought up can be brought up at a later point without retcon.