7455 réponses à ce sujet

[FataliTensei]

DaeJi wrote...

Charsen wrote...

Wait... wait wait wait...
Harbinger? 

It wasn't obvious?

Yeah I mean all you have to do is look at him and you can tell

[sw33ts]

Collider wrote...

sw33ts wrote...

Forced lesbian sex?!

Collider...I really don't get your point. At all. And I feel like i should cause you've had this discussion numerous times.

It's very simple. I dislike people assuming that the squad mates of heterosexual/bisexual/homosexual romances are actually bisexual/homosexual/heterosexual or they are likely or more suited to homosexuality/heterosexuality/bisexuality. Stereotypes are used when people do this. Just as if I said that you sw33ts, are more likely or more suited to be gay or heterosexual. I wouldn't know what I'm talking about, and I wouldn't surprised if you found it offensive.

My other position is that I would not DLC that retcons characters to being open to a gender they previous weren't. I have no qualms whatsoever with new characters in ME3 being gay or bisexual or giant elephants, but for some reason people want to debate with me on my positions

Okay so....if they should come out with a DLC that now has Tali open to FemSheps that would be retConning because??  Because she stated she's only attracted to men?  (forgive me. the term of retcon is still foreign to me.)

I mean most of us are not assuming. To assume is to pull something out of your ass.  And based off of actions of which Tali does it leads most to believe that she is bicurious maybe a little to shy for some FemShep lubbin.

I mean if you go to the store and buy milk at 1pm each week at the same store and each week you go and it's out of milk.  Am I wrong to infer that the store is going to be out of milk if I go again this week same time so on so forth? 

If everything that Tali says to FemShep is the same as she says to MaleShep am I wrong to now infer that Tali might be partly bicurious since all they do for Tali is have her go teehee link suits...go away i'm fixing the engine or w/e she says?

If bioware can make strictly straight people like say Miranda then why not make Tali strictly straight if that's how you want her to be viewed as.  She never ever says that she liked a man before shepard hell I don't even know if she said to to Shepard because i've yet to play her romance on my imported shepard (because I'm stuck on Novera and too lazy to get off of it.)

Tali just seems to like Shepard for being shepard...not cause of what be hanging/not hanging between his/her legs yo. 

Modifié par sw33ts, 13 mars 2010 - 04:19 .

[Crimmsonwind]

I agree that not all characters should be bisexual. Like in real life, some people just don't swing that way (unfortunately ;P). But Tali did say she trusted my FemShep enough to say she would link suits with me. Who knows how she may develop. She is just coming into adulthood, if I recall correctly.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

First of all, I'm not even talking about Tali solely, I'm talking about all characters, so what's your deal?

My point...oh my god, how many times do I need to repeat myself, are people USING STEREOTYPES to say that this character is heterosexual/bisexual/homosexual conclusively, especially given that their romance DOES not pertain to both sexes or x sex. Just as they used stereotypes to assume that you were a lesbian. comprehend now?

What sterotypes?  That they found her dialogue about linking suits suggestive? OH NOES call the writers! Someone has an alternate character interpretation! So what if they're using sterotypes? They're fictional characters. Once again you're COMPLETELY ignoring the difference between dicussing an actual person and a fictional character (who to be honest BioWare isn't all that great at avoiding sterotypes anyways *looks at Zevran and Morrigan and shakes head*  though Leliana instead of Morrigan was a nice evasion.) Your point is that people can't have a different interpretation because it doesn't agree with how you percieve the character. Also I'm only using Tali as a common point. What I am saying applies for ALL fictional characters not even restricted to the ME universe.

Fictional characters =/= real people!. If someone kills Zevran in a game its not the same thing as killing an actual person.

Though my friends do get really, really, les yay around me so that might explain it. "I think one of my breasts are bigger than the other! Check it for me!" 

"..." I want to kill her sometimes.

I don't even see why you bring this up. I never said that I approved of thermal clips storywise. It's not as if Bioware can never make mistakes in my eyes.m

You keep saying how horrible retcons are though. Shouldn't you be up in arms about that? 

It's retconning because now she's suddenly acting different within a conversation that already exists. It doesn't have to do with whether I think she's bisexual or not, it has to do with her acting differently towards female shepard in the same game when she didn't before pre-patch/DLC.

...do the dialogues not simply get cut off? How is adding new dialogues acting different within the same conversation? 

Are all the characters retconned when a new mission is added and they have additional dialogue with Shepard because of it?

Edit: This sounds way angrier than I intended.

TL;DR version: No seeing Tali as being interested in FemShep doesn't have to be based off sterotypes but rather alternate character interpretation and its not a retcon for her to be available as a romance option to femsheps.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 mars 2010 - 04:24 .

[BrianWilly]

FataliTensei wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Charsen wrote...

Wait... wait wait wait...
Harbinger? 

It wasn't obvious?

Yeah I mean all you have to do is look at him and you can tell

"I KNOW YOU FEEL THIS, SHEPARD."






















:innocent:

[Bryy_Miller]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

I agree that not all characters should be bisexual. Like in real life, some people just don't swing that way (unfortunately ;P). But Tali did say she trusted my FemShep enough to say she would link suits with me. Who knows how she may develop. She is just coming into adulthood, if I recall correctly.

So she's experimenting.

[didymos1120]

Crimmsonwind wrote...
 She is just coming into adulthood, if I recall correctly.

She's 24, and her pilgrimage was 2 years ago, so nope:  lady is an adult, has been for awhile.  Besides, the not-an-adult-until-Pilgrimage thing is more a technicality than anything.  Because:

a. Some people who are just too important to the Migrant Fleet's operation are automatically exempted.
b. There's no set age at which a Quarian sets out.  Generally, it's when they're biologically at adulthood, but some precocious and/or likely-to-cause-trouble ones get packed off early (Tali's dad, and Han'Gerrel, for instance).
c.  There's no set age at which a Quarian returns.  Some simply never do.  So, technically, a Quarian centenarian is still a "child" if they decided not to go back.

[SirGladiator]

It seems silly to debate whether Tali is 'straight' or 'bisexual' or whatever, she's Tali. She loves MaleShep, she loves FemShep, we know that simply from playing the game. Maybe she prefers men but likes FemShep anyway, maybe she prefers women but likes MaleShep anyway, what difference does it make? I for one don't want anybody deciding that but me, and Im glad that nobody does. She doesn't say whether she prefers men, women, or doesn't care either way, and thats exactly how it should be, leave that to me, the player, to decide. The only thing missing from the game is the rest of the Tali-FemShep romance, so yes that definitely should be included in future DLC. Most people want it, and the few that don't won't be bothered, since after all if you play as MaleShep your relationship with Tali won't change any, you can still pretend she's only interested in men. And I can still pretend she's only interested in women . The only difference will be that my game (and that of a TON of other players) will be a lot more fun. And thats the point of DLC after all, making the game more fun. That, and the HUGE number of sales that any DLC that includes the Tali-FemShep romance would generate would be tremendous fun for Bioware . So its nothing but win-win all the way around!

[Fade9wayz]

SirGladiator wrote...

It seems silly to debate whether Tali is 'straight' or 'bisexual' or whatever, she's Tali. She loves MaleShep, she loves FemShep, we know that simply from playing the game. Maybe she prefers men but likes FemShep anyway, maybe she prefers women but likes MaleShep anyway, what difference does it make? I for one don't want anybody deciding that but me, and Im glad that nobody does. She doesn't say whether she prefers men, women, or doesn't care either way, and thats exactly how it should be, leave that to me, the player, to decide. The only thing missing from the game is the rest of the Tali-FemShep romance, so yes that definitely should be included in future DLC. Most people want it, and the few that don't won't be bothered, since after all if you play as MaleShep your relationship with Tali won't change any, you can still pretend she's only interested in men. And I can still pretend she's only interested in women . The only difference will be that my game (and that of a TON of other players) will be a lot more fun. And thats the point of DLC after all, making the game more fun. That, and the HUGE number of sales that any DLC that includes the Tali-FemShep romance would generate would be tremendous fun for Bioware . So its nothing but win-win all the way around!

You are right in saying that a DLC should be about adding fun to the the game, but what ticked me off in your statement is that if BW released a Tali/Femshep DLC, I would feel as if they held it up intentionally just knowing how much more profit they would make out of it. I can understand it as a business move, hell, if I was more business-minded, I might even approve. Since I am not, it would feel like treachery to me. (note: I am not saying it IS their intention, I have no idea if such a DLC is even in the making. It's just the feeling I got when I read the post I quoted. It made me quite uneasy.)

I'd rather have her developping romantic feelings for FemShep in ME3 (or not at all, but I'm being optimistic there) then, just for the principle. Just as I'd rather have any same-sex romances being done in the main-story-line for continuity and since they would most likely be of better manufacture than any DLC (looks at Zaeed.......)

Edit for forgetting a word, again...

re-edit: optimistic in the sense of her being romancable in ME3

Modifié par Fade9wayz, 13 mars 2010 - 11:39 .

[BrianWilly]

Y'know, I don't really get the "Tali just likes  Shepard as Shepard, it's not about the sex" thing; that's one of the few things that I do disagree with.  If Tali is attracted to FemShep, then I would say she is bisexual, and that she might be romantically interested in a female Quarian as well.

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/blushing.png[/smilie] As  this forum has shown, it's completely, biologically feasible for a human male to find a quarian female sexually attractive, simply by the their  body shape which is obviously feminine by human standards.  By the same token, it wouldn't be so biologically strange for a Quarian female to be attracted to a human male, whose proportions are really pretty close to a quarian male.  Based on physical attractiveness alone, quarian-human relations is not nearly the "interspecies awkwardness thing" of, well, Turian-human ones.

Well y'know, aside from the potential death of one or both partners.  Other than that!

Modifié par BrianWilly, 13 mars 2010 - 11:55 .

[cutthecameras]

BrianWilly wrote...

Y'know, I don't really get the "Tali just likes  Shepard as Shepard, it's not about the sex" thing; that's one of the few things that I do disagree with.  If Tali is attracted to FemShep, then I would say she is bisexual, and that she might be romantically interested in a female Quarian as well.

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/blushing.png[/smilie] As  this forum has shown, it's completely, biologically feasible for a human male to find a quarian female sexually attractive, simply by the their  body shape which is obviously feminine by human standards.  By the same token, it wouldn't be so biologically strange for a Quarian female to be attracted to a human male, whose proportions are really pretty close to a quarian male.  Based on physical attractiveness alone, quarian-human relations is not nearly the "interspecies awkwardness thing" of, well, Turian-human ones.

Well y'know, aside from the potential death of one or both partners.  Other than that!

I try not to label others carelessly because everytime I do I end up with my foot in my mouth.

The thing is...a woman can fall in love with another woman and she wouldn't nessesarily identify as a lesbian or bisexual (yes, this goes for guys too). In some cases it can be an eye opening experience that lets you know you're gay or bi, but in some cases it's simply falling in love with no strings attached. It's probably a lot more common than people think. Everyone gets so hooked up on the labels, on the politics...and they really need to back it up just a tad I think. It's simple. Sometimes you find someone and they're an exception to the rule, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'd go as far as to say it's just like falling in love with someone who is older, suddenly your friends may say "Well I didn't know you were into older people." and maybe you are, but maybe you aren't! Why do people presume so much over so little?
Here's a comic to sum up how I feel on the subject:

Bringing it back to Mass Effect...
Tali can fall in love with Commander Shepard because Shepard fills a void in her life. She already seems to be regarded by Tali as more than a friend. That she would deny herself something more with Shepard...(over what? protocol? sexuality?) it just seems so trite in the face of the danger that they're up against, and the fact that Shepard has always been there for her.

Modifié par cutthecameras, 14 mars 2010 - 07:26 .

[Fade9wayz]

cutthecameras wrote...
snip

Yeah, happened to me.

Bringing it back to Mass Effect...
Tali can fall in love with Commander Shepard because Shepard fills a void in her life. She already seems to be regarded by Tali as more than a friend. That she would deny herself something more with Shepard...(over what? protocol? sexuality?) it just seems so trite in the face of the danger that they're up against, and the fact that Shepard has always been there for her.

Well, to be regarded as more than a friend doesn't necesseraly means as a romantic interest either. There were people in my life who I thought had no interest in me and next thing I know, they told me or somebody else told me on their behalf that they were attracted to me. And there were people who I thought were showing every sign of being attracted to me who were just seeing me as a very good friend. I think that's just the point Collider is trying to make. He is not denying that Tali could be attracted to FemShep. He's just against people assuming that based on projections of their wants.

[Ninja Mage]

Yeah labels aren't good. I'm gay but I'm not  really into ''gay'' stuff. Like people don't know unless i tell them I'm gay. I just like guys, that doesn't mean I know how to decorate a house or what color to paint a room.

Modifié par Ninja Mage, 14 mars 2010 - 08:20 .

[wrexfan32hanalei]

gross

[Phaelducan]

From a purely economical standpoint, I would imagine Bioware has a pretty good idea of where they are going to allocate resources.



I can't see this issue making it onto the front page of their "things to address for ME3" list.



For starters, gay/straight/bi/whatever, the romance options for not just ME but most Bioware games are an extremely minor part of the game. Yeah, there is some extra dialogue for 2-3 or so party members from each gender, and one pseudo-sex scene, but really the game is about saving the galaxy/kingdom/empire and all that.



Even money says Bioware really doesn't care all that much about the Romance aspect of their games. I would imagine the percentage of people who would literally decide to buy/not buy a game because of the options for romance and their associated genders/sexual orientations is minute.

[didymos1120]

Ninja Mage wrote...


Yeah labels aren't good. I'm gay but I'm not  really into ''gay'' stuff. Like people don't know unless i tell them I'm gay. I just like guys, that doesn't mean I know how to decorate a house or what color to paint a room.

Oh, well that's just great.  First it was Santa Claus, and now I find this out?  Damn you reality!

[Lightice_av]

Even money says Bioware really doesn't care all that much about the Romance aspect of their games. I would imagine the percentage of people who would literally decide to buy/not buy a game because of the options for romance and their associated genders/sexual orientations is minute.

Tali and Garrus romances say otherwise. They were made specifically to appease thans of the two pairings, even though back designing the first game the developers didn't even consider the possibility of a Garrus romance, and found the idea of a Tali romance utterly silly. The fans told what they liked, and Bioware complied. I am quite certain that the sales wouldn't have dropped one iota if they hadn't done this, but they happen to like pleasing the established fanbase, anyway. You see, the good part about a romantic subplot is that it doesn't take all that much effort to make compared for example to unique leveldesign, and doesn't eat nearly as much resources.

If Bioware didn't care about the romantic subplots at all, they wouldn't have them in the first place. Bethesda doesn't, for example. Yes, it's a very small part of the game, but quite important for character development. The romance subplots are Bioware's hallmark in role playing games, in case you haven't noticed. Few other RPG makers care nearly as much as Bioware does.

[Fade9wayz]

Phaelducan wrote...

From a purely economical standpoint, I would imagine Bioware has a pretty good idea of where they are going to allocate resources.

I can't see this issue making it onto the front page of their "things to address for ME3" list.

The fact is that no one knows if it is on the front or whatever else page of their agenda. This thread is to adress the fact that we'd like it to be on their agenda at some point.

For starters, gay/straight/bi/whatever, the romance options for not just ME but most Bioware games are an extremely minor part of the game. Yeah, there is some extra dialogue for 2-3 or so party members from each gender, and one pseudo-sex scene, but really the game is about saving the galaxy/kingdom/empire and all that.

I wouldn't think it is such a minor part of the game considering the numerous threads pandering to one romance or another. It is minor in quantity, but not in a quality way. Romances, and for that matter any interaction with NPCs are a way for the player to immerse themselves in the game and universe given by the developpers. Had this been a simple FPS, nobody would care about any possible romances. Instead, we'd be solely arguing the pros and cons of some type of armor and whatnot (which we can do too). Since ME2 is still partly a RPG, it is understandable that interactions more meaningful than: "You, go there and shoot that thing" are given such attention by both developpers and players.

Even money says Bioware really doesn't care all that much about the Romance aspect of their games.

I don't understand this. Please, elaborate. What money? Do you have
evidence to back up this assertion?

I would imagine the percentage of people who would literally decide to buy/not buy a game because of the options for romance and their associated genders/sexual orientations is minute.

Maybe, maybe not, no way to know for sure. The reasons for people buying some game are wide and very different. I would think that if romances (bi/straight/gay/lesbian or whatever) were hacked off in ME3, many RPG players would be extremely disappointed, maybe to the point of not buying the game. Yes, the game is about saving the world first and foremost, but you just described 80% of games ever published. Many of them have equally interesting stories and NPCs. Interactions on a personnal level is what makes RPGs, and this game in particular, stand out in many players' eyes.

[Phaelducan]

To the above couple of posters, I hope I was clear in using terminology like "I would imagine" as opposed "there is no way."

I have no idea whether my opinion is accurate.

With that said, what I mean by stating that romances aren't particularly important to the company is that since percentage-wise they are so small, logically I wouldn't imagine they spend a lot of time at creative meetings deciding how best to please their fan-base in this specific way.

Sure, they might, I just doubt it. Post counts are fine, but in all fairness I would guess a lot larger portion of the ME1 players were more concerned with the combat, inventory, Mako, etc then the lack of Tali as a romance option.

Now, clearly it wasn't much of an effort to put Garrus/Tali in as romance options, as they are in the game. That even might mean at some point there are some new types of romance options in Bioware games, I just don't see it happening in Mass Effect.

Oh, and "even money" is just a gambling reference. That means I'd bet straight odds that as a company, romance options are low on the list of priorities for Bioware.

Not trying to belittle anyone's desire for new RP elements, I just don't see it being a high priority (it might be, who knows, I'm just not seeing it at this time).

Besides, even if they were going to look at more gay/bi options for romance, why would they pick the third game in a Trilogy to start, or even 2.5 if you are talking about DLC?

Edit: Oh and just to be clear, I'm not saying that they don't care about Romances at all, clearly they do or they wouldn't be in the game. I'm just of the mind that they probably don't care very much.

Modifié par Phaelducan, 14 mars 2010 - 12:31 .

[HaloKT]

There is one flaw in your argument however.



There are voice files by Hale for the Tali F/F romance in the game. It is suspected that the same is true of the Thane M/M romance. The script as well as the voice actors have already been paid to have the content done. It was just not enabled in the game. Time and ressources to flick the switch from "off" to "on" would be minimal. And since they have the option to turn this into a paid DLC, they could even make some profit out of it.



The only reason they chose not to include it? I guess the same reason they massively toned down the sex scenes. Self-censorship when it comes to "controversial" themes, i.e. sex.

[JediMB]

HaloKT wrote...

The only reason they chose not to include it? I guess the same reason they massively toned down the sex scenes. Self-censorship when it comes to "controversial" themes, i.e. sex.

This is most likely true, regardless of how much BioWare reps deny it.

[Gemini1179]

JediMB wrote...

HaloKT wrote...

The only reason they chose not to include it? I guess the same reason they massively toned down the sex scenes. Self-censorship when it comes to "controversial" themes, i.e. sex.

This is most likely true, regardless of how much BioWare reps deny it.

I agree. I've never really bought the "time and money" excuse either. If you have someone record 10 000 lines of dialogue, don't tell me that 30 more is too cost prohibitive. Also, these games pull in money hand over fist. I'd bet dollars to pesos that the overlying reason for no same sex romance in the game comes down to lack of corporate balls.

[HaloKT]

Which is ironic, seeing as BioWare already had same sex romances in previous games. Even M/M with Zevran... Anyway, money clearly doesn't cut it as a reason, because the money has already been spent. The content is allegedly there. Just not enabled.

Lack of quad indeed.

[Fade9wayz]

Phaelducan wrote...

To the above couple of posters, I hope I was clear in using terminology like "I would imagine" as opposed "there is no way."

I have no idea whether my opinion is accurate.

With that said, what I mean by stating that romances aren't particularly important to the company is that since percentage-wise they are so small, logically I wouldn't imagine they spend a lot of time at creative meetings deciding how best to please their fan-base in this specific way.

Sure, they might, I just doubt it. Post counts are fine, but in all fairness I would guess a lot larger portion of the ME1 players were more concerned with the combat, inventory, Mako, etc then the lack of Tali as a romance option.

Now, clearly it wasn't much of an effort to put Garrus/Tali in as romance options, as they are in the game. That even might mean at some point there are some new types of romance options in Bioware games, I just don't see it happening in Mass Effect.

Oh, and "even money" is just a gambling reference. That means I'd bet straight odds that as a company, romance options are low on the list of priorities for Bioware.

Not trying to belittle anyone's desire for new RP elements, I just don't see it being a high priority (it might be, who knows, I'm just not seeing it at this time).

Besides, even if they were going to look at more gay/bi options for romance, why would they pick the third game in a Trilogy to start, or even 2.5 if you are talking about DLC?

Edit: Oh and just to be clear, I'm not saying that they don't care about Romances at all, clearly they do or they wouldn't be in the game. I'm just of the mind that they probably don't care very much.

And that is why I posted a list of reasons as to why I believe romances are actually important in Mass Effect. Of course, Bioware could not think so, but then why put them in the game in the first place if that was the case? I am not saying it is the most important thing to deal with on their plate, I'm just saying it is important enough that they cannot altogether dismiss it. It at least is more important than a space hamster or aquarium fishes....Granted, I wouldn't be surprised if the space hamster was the result of some internal prank.