7455 réponses à ce sujet

[FKA_Servo]

DukeOfNukes wrote...

comicfan22 wrote...

DukeofNukes, this is a topic about the Mass Effect series not Heavy Rain, we aren't compairing games made by other companies here.

You seem to be missing my point. The point was that you can find controversy ANYWHERE if you look hard enough...and I'm sorry, but that's all this thread/line of discussion is attempting to do. If you want a same sex romance that bad...try Dragon Age, or Jade Empire. Or even in Left 4 Dead...don't tell me Bill and Francis weren't hooking up.

True romance in video games is rare enough...but now you gotta complain because a well written, meaningful relationship isn't enough because there's no man on man or female on female action?

You might as well be complaining that you can't have a 3some, IMHO

But we want to play Mass Effect...we've already played Dragon Age and Jade Empire. 

Duke, part of the reason this seems out of place is because there is a precedent - in the first game.  FemShep can identify as a lesbian and engage in a lesbian relationship.

MShep cannot engage in a gay relationship or identify as a homosexual.  He could initially - the content was cut.  However, I can't think of a good reason for it to be cut, and Bioware hasn't offered anything.  So, until we hear about it, we'll talk amongst ourselves.

[mothbanquet]

cutthecameras wrote...

I agree with tmelange. Colored font or another glaring "HEY YOURE ABOUT TO GO GAY!" option is totally hypocritical because it dismisses the fact that a gay player can end up "going straight" accidentally as well. This option fascilitates the idea that it's okay, or normal, for people to want straight romances but that they must be implicitly forewarned about the possibility of starting a gay romance option accidentally. I don't think gay LIs should be decorated with rainbow flags to signal them out. In real life you can't tell what someone's orientation is and this should also be true of ME LIs. If you don't like something your Shepard says, reload.

Simple enough.

Exactly.  When playing the human on DAO I accidentally chatted up the bloke at the beginning instead of the elf girl.  It sounded innocent enough, I was just being friendly.  Then he made a remark about coming up to my room and I laughed my head off at my own choices off conversation.  Reload for me then...

But it was an amusing little experience and it added to my enjoyment of the game, adding a new level of care and attention to how I went about speaking to people, lest I lead on another poor soul who's attracted to bald men with big hammers.

If people don't see the funny side of that then please go out and get a sense of humour.

So anyways, i agree with the above opinion on coloured text and, at the very least, it will break the immersion.

[didymos1120]

danman2424 wrote...
Next time you want to respond, don't put words in my mouth.

I told you already: I'm done.  Have at it.

[Octorox]

cutthecameras wrote...

Octorox wrote...

cutthecameras wrote...

Octorox wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Octorox wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Goat_Shepard wrote...


Correction. I'm the kid who DOESN'T want to SPLIT his piece of cake with anyone else. Find yourself your own brand new piece of cake, let me enjoy mine.
Disclaimer: Knows the difference between fantasy and reality, enjoys real life cake as well.

Good then someone making an exact duplicate of your cake and redesigning it and giving it to someone else won't bother you then right ? Because that is pretty much what a FemShepTali romance DLC is.

Spliting the cake is a bad analogy seeing as you're not actually losing anything. You choose if you want to eat the new cake or not if its DLC. No one will force it on you.

But the Mass Effect universe isn't your's or anyone's, it's Bioware's. Shepard, however, is yours, as Shepard you can do everything in your power through your charm and awesomeness to make Tali in love with you. As Shepard you cannot magically download something that will change her orientation.

To be clear I SUPPORT same-sex marriage in Mas Effect. However, I do not think it should be added to any of the existing characters. I would rather see a new ME3 or DLC character created.

Uh. Yes you can. Its a video game. If I can magically download additional characters out of nowhere I can change Tali's orientation. Tis optional. No one will hold a gun to anyone's head and make them download the game.

You can't download them "out of nowhere" there is always a lore explanation. Zaeed was recruited by TIM. If they created DLC that made Tali bi I would demand an in-game lore explanation to be satisfied. If Tali's bi, she's bi in all iterations of the ME universe, as Commander Shepard and his/her actions and choices is the only malleable aspect of the Lore. This isn't the Sims, you aren't given god powers.

I'm very confused as to why BI inevitably gets tossed around in all this, as if it matters.

As I said before. To make Tali bi is to acknowledge that she finds women and men attractive. It would be unnessesary to do so in a playthrough where she is romanced by a male shepard or a female shepard. I don't think it's a given that someone who falls in love with someone of their own sex is essentially bi or gay.

In real life do such labels really matter if you love the person enough?

No, they shouldn't. But for some people they invariably do. Many Shepards are downright racist towards aliens, and just generally ignorant, shortsighted, and cruel. Some may be homophobic and be fundamentally against romancing a bisexual character. Liara you knew going in.

And just because some people are the way they are, should we limit options that can provide a richer experience to the diverse, growing fanbase of Bioware's games?

No, but Bioware's games have morality built in. i.e. you can be horrible person if you want. Some people might be angry that their fictional homophobic Shepards banged a bisexual character and they can't do anything about it.

[tmelange]

I don't understand why the retconning of Tali and Garrus is okay, but in any other instance, it's not okay. In my ME1 playthroughs, I never got one inkling that Tali was romantically interested in my Shep. There was no flirting, shy stammering, half smiles of wonder, nothing. There was also no indication that Tali would engage in an extra-species romance (Quarians seem very insular), or would think a human attractive, or anything, really. She basically stayed in the engine room, and I had four or five convos with her about the migrant fleet. In fact, Bioware themselves said that she was designed as a younger character, and not as a love interest. Likewise in most respects with Garrus.



Yet, now, it's perfectly okay that we are thrust into a romance where everything that was taken for granted in ME1 is re-defined. Things that apparently (who knew!) were unspecified in ME1 are elaborated upon in ME2 and turned into a story that presupposes a backstory that somehow happened off screen. But it is not viable for the same thing to happen in regards to Kaiden and male Shep or Tali and female Shep. Now, all of a sudden everything is set in stone, and if a player hopes to explore something outside of current in-game options a whole new character should be provided.



Strange.

[didymos1120]

tmelange wrote...
Asari's don't conform to the male/female dichotomy.

True enough.  They all look just like women.  In many, if not most, instances, ones attractive to the majority of straight human males.   I won't speak for the gay human females, but I imagine many find a lot to like there.

[mothbanquet]

TommyServo wrote...

DukeOfNukes wrote...

comicfan22 wrote...

DukeofNukes, this is a topic about the Mass Effect series not Heavy Rain, we aren't compairing games made by other companies here.

You seem to be missing my point. The point was that you can find controversy ANYWHERE if you look hard enough...and I'm sorry, but that's all this thread/line of discussion is attempting to do. If you want a same sex romance that bad...try Dragon Age, or Jade Empire. Or even in Left 4 Dead...don't tell me Bill and Francis weren't hooking up.

True romance in video games is rare enough...but now you gotta complain because a well written, meaningful relationship isn't enough because there's no man on man or female on female action?

You might as well be complaining that you can't have a 3some, IMHO

But we want to play Mass Effect...we've already played Dragon Age and Jade Empire. 

Duke, part of the reason this seems out of place is because there is a precedent - in the first game.  FemShep can identify as a lesbian and engage in a lesbian relationship.

MShep cannot engage in a gay relationship or identify as a homosexual.  He could initially - the content was cut.  However, I can't think of a good reason for it to be cut, and Bioware hasn't offered anything.  So, until we hear about it, we'll talk amongst ourselves.

Dukeofnukes, you're missing the point.  Nobody's talking about 'action'.  That is pretty a childish thing to say.  What they're talking about is a 'relationship'.  There is a difference.

[FKA_Servo]

danman2424 wrote...

Co-founder of Bioware has a quote in the OP about Dragon Age and Mass  Effect that you should probably read.

Dude - we have an FAQ that you should probably read.

If what Muzyka says in that quote is to be taken seriously, that would mean that anyone playing the game as anything other than John Shepard, the Renegade/Neutral soldier, is doing it wrong.

Clearly, that doesn't apply here.  Shepard is not a predefined character in a third person narrative.  S/he's the Grey Warden with voice work.  You're given freedom to determine every aspect of Shepard's personality and character (which includes sexuality), with one glaring exception - you can't be a homosexual male.

Modifié par TommyServo, 26 février 2010 - 06:00 .

[Ryzaki]

Oh guys...quote pyramids not cool. The forums are going to break at the rate you're going. Edit them out.

[cutthecameras]

mothbanquet wrote...

cutthecameras wrote...

I agree with tmelange. Colored font or another glaring "HEY YOURE ABOUT TO GO GAY!" option is totally hypocritical because it dismisses the fact that a gay player can end up "going straight" accidentally as well. This option fascilitates the idea that it's okay, or normal, for people to want straight romances but that they must be implicitly forewarned about the possibility of starting a gay romance option accidentally. I don't think gay LIs should be decorated with rainbow flags to signal them out. In real life you can't tell what someone's orientation is and this should also be true of ME LIs. If you don't like something your Shepard says, reload.

Simple enough.

Exactly.  When playing the human on DAO I accidentally chatted up the bloke at the beginning instead of the elf girl.  It sounded innocent enough, I was just being friendly.  Then he made a remark about coming up to my room and I laughed my head off at my own choices off conversation.  Reload for me then...

But it was an amusing little experience and it added to my enjoyment of the game, adding a new level of care and attention to how I went about speaking to people, lest I lead on another poor soul who's attracted to bald men with big hammers.

If people don't see the funny side of that then please go out and get a sense of humour.

So anyways, i agree with the above opinion on coloured text and, at the very least, it will break the immersion.

I agree, if you make a really unappealing character and someone hits on you (gay or straight) the resulting romance can seem very ridiculous indeed.

[danman2424]

didymos1120 wrote...

danman2424 wrote...
Next time you want to respond, don't put words in my mouth.

I told you already: I'm done.  Have at it.

I was done as well. Don't really care to get into it with someone as combative or as willing to make up things as you are.

[FataliTensei]

tmelange wrote...

I don't understand why the retconning of Tali and Garrus is okay, but in any other instance, it's not okay. In my ME1 playthroughs, I never got one inkling that Tali was romantically interested in my Shep. There was no flirting, shy stammering, half smiles of wonder, nothing. There was also no indication that Tali would engage in an extra-species romance (Quarians seem very insular), or would think a human attractive, or anything, really. She basically stayed in the engine room, and I had four or five convos with her about the migrant fleet. In fact, Bioware themselves said that she was designed as a younger character, and not as a love interest. Likewise in most respects with Garrus.

Yet, now, it's perfectly okay that we are thrust into a romance where everything that was taken for granted in ME1 is re-defined. Things that apparently (who knew!) were unspecified in ME1 are elaborated upon in ME2 and turned into a story that presupposes a backstory that somehow happened off screen. But it is not viable for the same thing to happen in regards to Kaiden and male Shep or Tali and female Shep. Now, all of a sudden everything is set in stone, and if a player hopes to explore something outside of current in-game options a whole new character should be provided.

Strange.

Yeahhhhhhh...that was odd.....epecially for Tali

[Octorox]

tmelange wrote...

I don't understand why the retconning of Tali and Garrus is okay, but in any other instance, it's not okay. In my ME1 playthroughs, I never got one inkling that Tali was romantically interested in my Shep. There was no flirting, shy stammering, half smiles of wonder, nothing. There was also no indication that Tali would engage in an extra-species romance (Quarians seem very insular), or would think a human attractive, or anything, really. She basically stayed in the engine room, and I had four or five convos with her about the migrant fleet. In fact, Bioware themselves said that she was designed as a younger character, and not as a love interest. Likewise in most respects with Garrus.

Yet, now, it's perfectly okay that we are thrust into a romance where everything that was taken for granted in ME1 is re-defined. Things that apparently (who knew!) were unspecified in ME1 are elaborated upon in ME2 and turned into a story that presupposes a backstory that somehow happened off screen. But it is not viable for the same thing to happen in regards to Kaiden and male Shep or Tali and female Shep. Now, all of a sudden everything is set in stone, and if a player hopes to explore something outside of current in-game options a whole new character should be provided.

Strange.

I wouldn't mind if they retconned it for all players, as part of the ME universe, and the player had some way of responding to it (for Male Sheps either I love you anyway or I'm a hypocritial meanie, for female Sheps either hell yeah! or i don't roll that way)

[Yeled]

danman2424 wrote...

Yeled wrote...

danman2424 wrote...
If they did have all of this extra time that you say they did, then I'm sure they would've spent it on even more female romances for male Shepard and male ones for female Shepard rather than spend it on what you would've wanted them to.

You mean like they did with Dragon Age and Jade Empire?  I'm not quite sure the evidence is on your side on this one.

Co-founder of Bioware has a quote in the OP about Dragon Age and Mass  Effect that you should probably read.

We've all read it.  Its in the first post in this thread, in fact.  Quite frankly its silly and nonsensical.  I see no difference between the characters and how they are played, except that shepard is voiced.  Otherwise they are the same in terms of player control and choice.

[Jimmy Fury]

cutthecameras wrote...
I agree with tmelange. Colored font or another glaring "HEY YOURE ABOUT TO GO GAY!" option is totally hypocritical because it dismisses the fact that a gay player can end up "going straight" accidentally as well. This option fascilitates the idea that it's okay, or normal, for people to want straight romances but that they must be implicitly forewarned about the possibility of starting a gay romance option accidentally. I don't think gay LIs should be decorated with rainbow flags to signal them out. In real life you can't tell what someone's orientation is and this should also be true of ME LIs. If you don't like something your Shepard says, reload.
Simple enough.

Actually I believe the coloring suggestion would apply to all romance dialogue options, not just the gay ones. A good number of people have expressed annoyance over the fact that seemingly innocent conversation options lead to romancey situations. So adding in a color option for romance-activating dialogue would be across the board.

As for what tmelange said, which I somehow missed (go away for ten minutes and 2 pages appear!), I have to adamantly disagree.
Expressing what we desire as video game players and ignoring the desires or other video game players, just makes us look stubborn. If we want them to change their game, we have to be willing to work with them.
Yes, that means we have to examine what it is we're requesting and we have to do so critically. Because you can bet your N7 armor that if BioWare looks at the issue they're going to look at what everyone wants. If we can get more people on board with a middle-ground idea, then BioWare is more likely to actually consider it.

[Ryzaki]

Eh. NM quoted old post.

Anyway gay Kaidan romance for ME3 <3

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 février 2010 - 06:05 .

[didymos1120]

Octorox wrote...
No, but Bioware's games have morality built in. i.e. you can be horrible person if you want. Some people might be angry that their fictional homophobic Shepards banged a bisexual character and they can't do anything about it.

I'm sorry, but that is an utterly absurd argument.  They can reload their damn save or start the hell over and cope with it by being a jerk to that darn, sneaky bisexual.

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

Mothbanquet, this how I kind of see it also

Ok , here's thing if you make it to were tali for example turns bi.Why after two games with no explanation would she do that.I think you would need to find a reason other than she's magically switched to be gay.

I think most straight folks on here (including myself) are fine with (same sex) being added to ME3.It's how do you go about having the feature.Most straight folks don't want to run across any dialog , that means let's start a gay relationship.An example you merely say something that is encouraging to Garrus/male etc ,As a male shepard I do not want a dialog box that comes up saying : "Are you saying you want a relationship with me ?" from Garrus.

Now if from the start of ME3( importing or making a new shepard M/F ) you have an option to enable/disable gay preference(dialog/relationship) that can be turned on/off , I think that's what would satisfy both groups.Which if that's how it is I think that's the best solution.One that would prevent straight groups from even having to worry about it altogether.

Modifié par LOST SPARTANJLC, 26 février 2010 - 06:07 .

[cutthecameras]

Jimmy Fury wrote...


Actually I believe the coloring suggestion would apply to all romance dialogue options, not just the gay ones. A good number of people have expressed annoyance over the fact that seemingly innocent conversation options lead to romancey situations. So adding in a color option for romance-activating dialogue would be across the board.

As for what tmelange said, which I somehow missed (go away for ten minutes and 2 pages appear!), I have to adamantly disagree.
Expressing what we desire as video game players and ignoring the desires or other video game players, just makes us look stubborn. If we want them to change their game, we have to be willing to work with them.
Yes, that means we have to examine what it is we're requesting and we have to do so critically. Because you can bet your N7 armor that if BioWare looks at the issue they're going to look at what everyone wants. If we can get more people on board with a middle-ground idea, then BioWare is more likely to actually consider it.

I'm not in favor of appearing stubborn but I don't agree gay LIs should be pointed out to the player in an immersion-breaking way. I have reconsidered my view on the colored font idea however; if all romance-initiating dialogue were colored it would certainly help both sides.

[mothbanquet]

cutthecameras wrote...

mothbanquet wrote...

Exactly.  When playing the human on DAO I accidentally chatted up the bloke at the beginning instead of the elf girl.  It sounded innocent enough, I was just being friendly.  Then he made a remark about coming up to my room and I laughed my head off at my own choices off conversation.  Reload for me then...

But it was an amusing little experience and it added to my enjoyment of the game, adding a new level of care and attention to how I went about speaking to people, lest I lead on another poor soul who's attracted to bald men with big hammers.

If people don't see the funny side of that then please go out and get a sense of humour.

So anyways, i agree with the above opinion on coloured text and, at the very least, it will break the immersion.

I agree, if you make a really unappealing character and someone hits on you (gay or straight) the resulting romance can seem very ridiculous indeed.

Plus you can always, you know, stop things going any further through the miracle of breakup!

Seriously though, it's moments like that which make the experience that little bit more memorable.  If you take it so seriously that nothing must ever go wrong, go and play a rigidly characterized final fantasy game or watch a movie where nothing will ever go outside of it's framework.

With BioWare rpg's though, the magic is in the unique moments like that.

[Yeled]

I don't think most straight players don't want to encounter any gay dialogue. I'm straight. I have no problem with it. Most Dragon Age players seem capable of handling it. Same with Jade Empire players.



I think a small minority of people are afraid to encounter it, and even these would get over it pretty quick.

[jlb524]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

I think most straight folks on here (including myself) are fine with (same sex) being added to ME3.It's how do you go about having the feature.Most straight folks don't want to run across any dialog , that means let's start a gay relationship.An example you merely say something that is encouraging to Garrus/male etc ,As a male shepard I do not want a dialog box that comes up saying : "Are you saying you want a relationship with me ?" from Garrus.

As a female Shepard (and a real life lesbian) I really don't want to see this from Garrus either.  I can deal with it though.

[danman2424]

TommyServo wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

Co-founder of Bioware has a quote in the OP about Dragon Age and Mass  Effect that you should probably read.

Dude - we have an FAQ that you should probably read.

If what Muzyka says in that quote is to be taken seriously, that would mean that anyone playing the game as anything other than John Shepard, the Renegade/Neutral soldier, is doing it wrong.

Clearly, that doesn't apply here.  Shepard is not a predefined character in a third person narrative.  S/he's the Grey Warden with voice work.  You're given freedom to determine every aspect of Shepard's personality and character (which includes sexuality), with one glaring exception - you can't be a homosexual male.

I read the FAQ, hence the reason I mentioned the quote.....

His quote explains things very well and shouldn't be confusing to anyone.

Apparently Dragon Age is a bit different because while I know who Commander Shepard is and I know many people that aren't that into games that know of the character, I don't think i know of anyone that has heard of the "Grey Warden". Heck I'm a pretty big gamer and i don't even know who that is.

[Octorox]

 Fine, I give up, I'll concede that the Renegade gameplay argument is dumb. But I'll just say this: If the fictional character Tali wanted femShep as much as maleShep and had no reason to hide it, it would have been in ME2. Those obviously weren't Bioware's final plans for the character, they had entertained that idea, but ultimately removed it. If Bioware decides to make a Lesbian romance possible with Tali in ME3, with a story explanation as to why she wasn't interested in ME2 (she was afraid, embarassed, w/e) I'd be perfectly okay with that.