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[Weiser_Cain]

Darkhour wrote...

..
Then its went to hell. I guess ME is just another Final Fantasy because you can't choose your sexual orientation. Because let's face it, being able to have dude on dude action is the main selling point of any non-linear RPG. 

That what it boils down to for you, eh?

Modifié par Weiser_Cain, 20 mars 2010 - 01:09 .

[Darkhour]

Lightice_av wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

I don't know what roleplaying games you have been playing for the past 20 years, but ones like Dargon Age are in the minority.

And this is an argument...how? Bioware's style of RPGs have always been the minority, period. Most companies don't care nearly as much about the story or characters as Bioware does. Does that mean it's bad? Hell no.

Femshep is 30ish, N7, bisexual human female badass. All her choices
reflect that.

Nothing whatsoever forces FemShep to be bisexual. You can shoot down every single pass women make at you; likewise, you can shoot down every single male and be lesbian all the way. FemShep has the full range of options available. Why shouldn't MShep gain exactly the same variety of possibilities? This game has a major female playerbase, in the case you didn't know, and many of them happen to play with MShep, just as many male players play with FemShep.

RPG was equated to being able to pick every nuisance of the protagonist. That was an erroneous statement. So, yes, the VAST MAJORITY of RPG's not living up to her (or his?) ideals is a valid argument.

I'm not going to go over femsheps bisexuality anymore. I've already went over it in the post above this one. If you want to pretend that femshep is not bisexual so be it.  

[Lightice_av]

ALL FEMSHEPS ARE BISEXUAL. YES, THE ONE YOU PLAY IS A BISEXUAL EVEN IF YOU CHOSE NOT TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH ANOTHER FEMALES.

This statement is purely false, and your argument completely breaks down in making it. FemShep is potentially bisexual, just as she is potentially straight or lesbian. The key thing is, the player gets to choose. She can express discomfort at the idea of getting involved with an asari because she is a woman; not something that a bisexual person would be likely to do.
I guess next you'll try to explain why Shepard is always Renegade, no matter what.

I'm not going to go over femsheps bisexuality anymore. I've already
went over it in the post above this one. If you want to pretend that
femshep is not bisexual so be it. 

 
In other words, instead of civilized debate you stuff fingers in your ears and jabber: "She is, she is, she is!" , and pretend that your opinion is the only thing that matters.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 20 mars 2010 - 01:12 .

[Weiser_Cain]

If you pick Liara as your LI them you're dating a Hermaphrodite... So why is any other combination a problem?

[Lightice_av]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

If you pick Liara as your LI them you're dating a Hermaphrodite... So why is any other combination a problem?

Liara isn't a hermaphrodite. Hermaphrodites have the biological parts of both male and female. Liara only has female parts. She is a woman, and only woman.

[Darkhour]

Lightice_av wrote...

ALL FEMSHEPS ARE BISEXUAL. YES, THE ONE YOU PLAY IS A BISEXUAL EVEN IF YOU CHOSE NOT TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH ANOTHER FEMALES.

This statement is purely false, and your argument completely breaks down in making it. FemShep is potentially bisexual, just as she is potentially straight or lesbian. The key thing is, the player gets to choose. She can express discomfort at the idea of getting involved with an asari because she is a woman; not something that a bisexual person would be likely to do.
I guess next you'll try to explain why Shepard is always Renegade, no matter what.

Yeah, my Shepard was potential a hardcore xenophobe until he screwed the consort or was forced to argue against Ashley's initial xenophobia. I'm done beating this dead horse. Pretend whatever you like. I pretend alot of things while playing ME. The only difference is I know the line between pretend and the reality of the game world. Rather or not we agree on this issue doesn't really matter. Bioware will either grant your wish in ME3 or not. I really couldn't care all that much either way.  

[Erode_The_Soul]

Darkhour wrote...
 By default I mean his basic core: 30ish, N7, straight, human male badass. All his choices reflect that rather you are renegade or paragon. Femshep is 30ish, N7, bisexual human female badass. All her choices reflect that. 

Sorry, but this is incorrect. There is a default Shepard, sure, but the default is not as defined as you are making it.  Shepard can be male or female, paragon or renegade, diplomatic or...otherwise... , even straight, gay or bisexual, etc.

DudeShep is not straight by default, and Femshep is not bisexual by default; this is evidenced by the numerous Manshep players who have a homosexual Shepard and the numerous Femshps who have a heterosexual Shepard. The only thing Shepard is by default is a badass human soldier who's around 30 yrs old. That's it.

[Darkhour]

Lightice_av wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

If you pick Liara as your LI them you're dating a Hermaphrodite... So why is any other combination a problem?

Liara isn't a hermaphrodite. Hermaphrodites have the biological parts of both male and female. Liara only has female parts. She is a woman, and only woman.

They have no clitorus or sensitive nerve cluster. While having conventional sex with Shepard Liara just sticks it out until he's done. She is very good at faking it.

Modifié par Darkhour, 20 mars 2010 - 01:20 .

[Lightice_av]

Yeah, my Shepard was potential a hardcore xenophobe until he screwed the consort or was forced to argue against Ashley's initial xenophobia.

"Forced?" You aren't forced to do either of these things. You've been seriously blind to think that those options are in any way necessary. You can gracefully accept the Consort's gift and be done with it. You can encourage Ashley in her xenophobia if you wish! You clearly don't pay very much attention to the games that you play.

Bioware will either grant your wish in ME3 or not. I really couldn't care all that much either way.

You're being awfully talkative for a person who doesn't care. It never ceases to amuse me when people declare that "they don't care" after lines and lines of debate; is it easier to claim indifference than admit ignorance?

They have no clitorus or sensitive nerve cluster. While having
conventional sex with Shepard Liara just lays there until you're done.
She is very good at faking it.

 
Pff...I thought you said you knew what was difference between "pretend" and "real" game world? I'd love to see the official source you got that nonsense from.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 20 mars 2010 - 01:20 .

[Weiser_Cain]

Lightice_av wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

If you pick Liara as your LI them you're dating a Hermaphrodite... So why is any other combination a problem?

Liara isn't a hermaphrodite. Hermaphrodites have the biological parts of both male and female. Liara only has female parts. She is a woman, and only woman.

She's an it, both refering to being an an alien and gender. Even if 'her' parts look female, that's not what they are. She can produce ofspring with anyone male or female.

[Erode_The_Soul]

Darkhour wrote...
ALL FEMSHEPS ARE BISEXUAL. YES, THE ONE YOU PLAY IS A BISEXUAL EVEN IF YOU CHOSE NOT TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH ANOTHER FEMALES.

Actually, no. They aren't. My Femshep has only romanced men. She's turned down Liara, gracefully accepted the Constort's gift and was cordial to Kelly without having to see that horrid stripper dance. You can skip around her and point singing "Bisexual, bisexual, bisexual!", but she'll just shake her head, roll her eyes, and go about her merry way. She's not bisexual, and won't be no matter how loud you scream that she is.

Darkhour wrote...

They have no clitorus or sensitive
nerve cluster. While having conventional sex with Shepard Liara
just sticks it out until he's done. She is very good at faking it.

You, my friend, really know WAY too much about this subject. Seriously.

[Lightice_av]

She's an it, both refering to being an an alien and gender. Even if 'her' parts look female, that's not what they are. She can produce ofspring with anyone male or female.

No, she is not. Have you ever seen anyone in the game call her or any asari "it"? They even refer to each other with feminine pronouns and nouns.

Here, a direct quote from the game Codex:

An all-female race, the asari reproduce through a form of parthenogenesis. They can attune their nervous system to that of another individual of any gender, and of any species, to reproduce. This capability has led to unseemly and inaccurate rumors about asari promiscuity.

The asari are all-female creatures. All-female species also exist here on Earth - insects and lizards, mostly. They're not hermaphroditic - they are female, all of them.

[Darkhour]

Lightice_av wrote...

Yeah, my Shepard was potential a hardcore xenophobe until he screwed the consort or was forced to argue against Ashley's initial xenophobia.

"Forced?" You aren't forced to do either of these things. You've been seriously blind to think that those options are in any way necessary. You can gracefully accept the Consort's gift and be done with it. You can encourage Ashley in her xenophobia if you wish! You clearly don't pay very much attention to the games that you play.

Bioware will either grant your wish in ME3 or not. I really couldn't care all that much either way.

You're being awfully talkative for a person who doesn't care. It never ceases to amuse me when people declare that "they don't care" after lines and lines of debate; is it easier to claim indifference than admit ignorance?

Yeah, expressing an opinion kinda requires "talking".

I didn't graciously accept the consorts gift. My renegade though it sucked. Shepard isn't a psychic. Using prior knowledge to avoid  a sitaution doesn't change the fact that having sex with the consort is the only option for a person who does not think her gift was all that great.

The dialog with Ashley is two sided. The first conversation options are negative toward her dispostion. Then later you get options to express your own pro-human sentiments. But initially you are forced to disagree with her.

Pff...I thought you said you knew what was difference between "pretend" and "real" game world? I'd love to see the official source you got that nonsense from.

Well as he asari "vagina anolgue" serves no purpose than a birth canal so I just sort thought... that it having a nerve setup designed to promote penis-vaginal insertion seemed biologically... useless. But it's just a game and hence the joke... Wait! Are you serious? Or is that a joke. You pulling my leg?

Wooh! ....Tough crowd.

[Lightice_av]

Yeah, expressing an opinion kinda requires "talking".

If you didn't care, you wouldn't have an opinion, and you wouldn't had said anything.

Using prior knowledge to avoid a sitaution doesn't change the fact that having sex with the consort is the only option for a person who does not think her gift was all that great.

Still doesn't force you to take that option. There is a neutral dialogue option as well, if you didn't notice.

But initially you are forced to disagree with her.

No, the only thing you need to disagree over is taking aliens on the mission, since their presence is vital to the plot. You don't have to disagree with her general stance.

Are you serious? Or is that a joke. You pulling my leg?

What kind of joke would that be? You make assumptions that have no basis on the game itself, yet you claim that you know what's really in the game and what's just "pretending". I smell hypocricy.

And the asari have a sexual drive even though it's for the sake of social interaction rather than procreation, so not being able to gain pleasure from sex would make very little sense.

[Weiser_Cain]

Lightice_av wrote...

She's an it, both refering to being an an alien and gender. Even if 'her' parts look female, that's not what they are. She can produce ofspring with anyone male or female.

No, she is not. Have you ever seen anyone in the game call her or any asari "it"? They even refer to each other with feminine pronouns and nouns.
Here, a direct quote from the game Codex:

An all-female race, the asari reproduce through a form of parthenogenesis. They can attune their nervous system to that of another individual of any gender, and of any species, to reproduce. This capability has led to unseemly and inaccurate rumors about asari promiscuity.

The asari are all-female creatures. All-female species also exist here on Earth - insects and lizards, mostly. They're not hermaphroditic - they are female, all of them.

Yeah, except they're not. The game simplifies a lot of ideas to get them across easily. Asari can choose to take either the 'male' or 'female' role, but they have the gear for either. That makes them Hermaphrodites.

As for the earth analogs, that just muddies up the issue since gender isn't nearly as clear cut on earth as you'd think.
Whiptail lizards (probably the model for Asari) are 'all female' and copulate though they reproduce by cloning themselves, which technicaly makes them not female.

That the Asari can reproduce without any form of what we'd call sex highlights the fact that what you think is happening isn't the main event, or even needed.

[Lightice_av]

Yeah, except they're not. The game simplifies a lot of ideas to get them across easily. Asari can choose to take either the 'male' or 'female' role, but they have the gear for either. That makes them Hermaphrodites.

No. Look from the dictionary. A hermaphrodite has both male and female biology. The asari only have female. They can't take a "male" role. The "father", if you really like to call it that doesn't give his/her genes to the mix at all. They're just used to randomize parts of the mother's genetic sequence.

You are arguing against both the game and professional biologists with your claims. Hermaphroditic creatures are very much different from all-female ones.

[Darkhour]

Lightice_av wrote...

If you didn't care, you wouldn't have an opinion, and you wouldn't had said anything.

I don't particularly care if you have roaches in your house, it doesn't effect me or anyone I know, but I would have an opinion about it. I don't particularly care if gays have the right to get married, doesn't effect me or anyone I care about, but I have an opinion. I don't care if the dinosaurs died due to a meteor or disease, but I have an opinion on the subject. Everyone has an opinion on everything rather they'll admit it or not.

Still doesn't force you to take that option. There is a neutral dialogue option as well, if you didn't notice.

Neutral is basically the paragon option reworded. Again that isn't the point. You are either gracious (therefore Bioware is dictating my Shepard's personality if I'm a "straight femshep") or you want to have sex with the consort. There is no grey area. You refuse to acknowledge this simple fact. Fine. Whatever.

No, the only thing you need to disagree over is taking aliens on the mission, since their presence is vital to the plot. You don't have to disagree with her general stance.

Thank you for admitting that I'm forced to not be hardcore xenophobic.

None of the aliens besides Liara are vital to the plot after the initial circumstances where you meet them. Heck, two of them are semi-optional.

What kind of joke would that be? You make assumptions that have no basis on the game itself, yet you claim that you know what's really in the game and what's just "pretending". I smell hypocricy.

It was a joke about sex. It clearly wasn't a serious comment. You smell whatever you think favors your position against me. Nothing new to forum debate there. 

And the asari have a sexual drive even though it's for the sake of social interaction rather than procreation, so not being able to gain pleasure from sex would make very little sense.

Asari sex is the mindmeld stuff. Vaginal insertion is not asari sex, that's human sex (unless asari are hermaphrodite-like). A human female vagina would serve no biological purpose on an asari. But since they are fan service to young boys I'm sure they have sensitive vaginas anyway. Now if asari had mock penises like hyhena females... some evolutionary leftover... then it would make some biological sense as well.

"I'm Commander Shepard and I approve of sorta hermaphrodite asari."

Modifié par Darkhour, 20 mars 2010 - 03:03 .

[Lightice_av]

Everyone has an opinion on everything rather they'll admit it or not.

It should be obvious that this is not true. Everybody most certainly does not have an opinion on everything. Absurd claim is absurd.

Thank you for admitting that I'm forced to not be hardcore xenophobic.

Kind of difficult in a game where you constantly have to interact with aliens in means other than guns. You still get to be plenty of xenophobic if you want to.

It was a joke about sex. It clearly wasn't a serious comment.

Nothing is clear without word tones. Text is the same whether you're being serious or sarcastic. That's why it's important to make clear in your written speech if you're joking or not.

Asari sex is the mindmeld stuff.

Mind meld is a part of asari sex, but not all asari mind meld is sex. The physical component is still there.

A human female vagina would serve no biological purpose on an asari.

Unless they used to have two sexes, but evolved to encompass only one, like the real life all-female animals. They clearly have a sense of physical sexuality that's completely aimed for social, rather than reproductive purposes. A bit like bonobos taken even further, to find more similarities from the animal kingdom.

Also, from your own standpoint a hyena-like vagina would make no more sense to asari reproduction than the standard human model.

[Darkhour]

Lightice_av wrote...

It should be obvious that this is not true. Everybody most certainly does not have an opinion on everything. Absurd claim is absurd.

Great argument! You basically said, "Uh-uhn!!".

Wow, very thought provoking. I should have thought of that.

Kind of difficult in a game where you constantly have to interact with aliens in means other than guns. You still get to be plenty of xenophobic if you want to.

Thanks for admitting that the games mechanics/design dictate alot about your Shepard. Glad to see you put aside that silly "It's a RPG so I decide who my Shepard is" nonsense.

It's how I interact with said aliens, not the fact that I come across aliens that matters. Even KKK members interact with non-whites. The idea that they are going to team up with a mexican guy who doesn't bring any crucial skill or ability to the party doesn't make sense. Besides Liara none of the alien crew is necessary. Wrex, Tali and Garrus are completely unncessary after your initial meeting.

Mind meld is a part of asari sex, but not all asari mind meld is sex. The physical component is still there.

 
Yes (I assume!), as fan service. Not biologically from a real world context. Biologically speaking hugging, groping and caressing would be the physical component, not asari penis to vagina insertion. Get it? But the real world context doesn't really matter in this video game.

Unless they used to have two sexes, but evolved to encompass only one, like the real life all-female animals. They clearly have a sense of physical sexuality that's completely aimed for social, rather than reproductive purposes. A bit like bonobos taken even further, to find more similarities from the animal kingdom.
Also, from your own standpoint a hyena-like vagina would make no more sense to asari reproduction than the standard human model.

Not sure what you mean by that, but an asari "vagina" would only serve as a birth canal. Unless they burst out Aliens style in which case they would have no purpose whatsoever. 

[Wittand25]

Darkhour wrote...

It's how I interact with said aliens, not the fact that I come across aliens that matters. Even KKK members interact with non-whites. The idea that they are going to team up with a mexican guy who doesn't bring any crucial skill or ability to the party doesn't make sense. Besides Liara none of the alien crew is necessary. Wrex, Tali and Garrus are completely unncessary after your initial meeting.
 

 Only one of the three is mandatory to join the crew the other two are optional and Shepard can decide if he/she wants them to join.
Regarding your claim that male Shepard is straight because there was no flirt option till now.
First beeing gay/bisexuell does not mean to flirt with every member of the same sex and second that is exactly what we want to change in ME2/ be integrated in ME3 the ability to flirt with another male as male Shepard.

Modifié par Wittand25, 20 mars 2010 - 03:37 .

[vhatever]

Asari are not females. In order for them to be females, there must be a form of the Asari that is male. This canard is getting pretty old.

[DaeJi]

Whatever the Asari are, the look female and for the most part, human females would only find them attractive if they found females in general attractive. Let us leave it at that and not discuss it further.

[GodWood]

vhatever wrote...

Asari are not females. In order for them to be females, there must be a form of the Asari that is male. This canard is getting pretty old.

The codex says they are an all female race.
Why do idiots keep refusing to accept this...

Modifié par GodWood, 20 mars 2010 - 03:54 .

[vhatever]

DaeJi wrote...

Whatever the Asari are, the look female and for the most part, human females would only find them attractive if they found females in general attractive. Let us leave it at that and not discuss it further.

Human males look more like human females than asari look like human females. Rejected.

[Wittand25]

vhatever wrote...

Asari are not females. In order for them to be females, there must be a form of the Asari that is male. This canard is getting pretty old.

Wrong. The biological defination of female is independent of the existence of an male counterpart. Biologically speaking a specimen is female if it provides the egg from witch the offspring grows,
Offcourse the basic asari biology does not really matter if you want to determine if femShep/Asari is a same-sex-pairing or not.
More important in that regard is how are asari percieved by humas ? Well asari exhibit all secondary characteristics ( body shape, voice, facial features) and tertial characteristics ( to wear dresses, ... ) of human females so any human who would come acros an asari would see her as female .

Modifié par Wittand25, 20 mars 2010 - 06:10 .