7455 réponses à ce sujet

[catabuca]

Ryzaki wrote...

Hm...still maybe an option to turn off colored text in the options menu for those like you that don't want it? I really don't want to end up with another "teh priiize" moment. Or FemShep leering at Jacob. I really, really, don't.

But the answer to that is to improve the quality of the writing and the way conversations are implemented, not to effectively say to the story team 'oh, okay, you're rubbish at writing these conversations, so carry on being rubbish but mark up the rubbish options you give us in different colours so we at least know which option is least awful'.

I'm also against setting sexual orientation in a menu.

If s/s relationships are going to be implemented in the ME franchise they should be done in the same way they have been in every other Bioware franchise that has had them. All that needs to be addressed are the same things that concern those unhappy with the way m/f relationships are handled, and, at risk of labouring the point, that is through better writing.

[Ryzaki]

catabuca wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Hm...still maybe an option to turn off colored text in the options menu for those like you that don't want it? I really don't want to end up with another "teh priiize" moment. Or FemShep leering at Jacob. I really, really, don't.

But the answer to that is to improve the quality of the writing and the way conversations are implemented, not to effectively say to the story team 'oh, okay, you're rubbish at writing these conversations, so carry on being rubbish but mark up the rubbish options you give us in different colours so we at least know which option is least awful'.

I'm also against setting sexual orientation in a menu.

If s/s relationships are going to be implemented in the ME franchise they should be done in the same way they have been in every other Bioware franchise that has had them. All that needs to be addressed are the same things that concern those unhappy with the way m/f relationships are handled, and, at risk of labouring the point, that is through better writing.

Hm...I'm not sure I agree with you on that. And I mean colored text for all romances not just s/s being turned off in the menu. Frankly DA had great writing that sure in heck didn't stop me from getting ninja romanced on several playthroughs.

I mean complimenting someone on their hair =/= "I want you!" 

Granted it was easy to turn it off (once you realize the blasted romance was actually turned on ) but then you got a nice approval loss.

...if rejecting someone doesn't result in them not talking to you anymore I guess I could go for the no colored text options.

Even if lfe would be a lot easier with them for both the developers and the consumers. If there's a toggle you then have the option to turn of the colored text. Nothing to really complain about there.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

catabuca wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


Also: colored text ftw. No more ninja romances! Even if you guys at BW don't place in s/s romances please, please, please! Give us colored text romance options! (even if its for one line to start the romance and turns off after the romance has been started).

I'm still against the coloured text thing. There is no coloured text in real life - you work with what you're given. Someone can ninja you irl. Having to sit and think carefully what might happen if I clicked any of the 4 options in DA:O was thrilling, nervewracking, and part of the fun. I agree that some might have been annoyed by the way they were ninja'd, but that's something to be addressed through better writing and implementation, not through coloured text that spoonfeeds you or holds your hand through all the options.

In ME2, the romance options are handled badly, there's no disagreement there. The femShep/Jacob example is clear, as is the way everything grinds to a halt if you don't want to jump someone's bones. However, again, that's something to be addressed through better writing and implementation, not through coloured text. We already have top = paragon, bottom = renegade and right = brings convo to a conclusion, left = carries on convo (although as a side point I thought this wasn't implemented as consistently in ME2 as it was in ME1), we don't need any more hand holding.

The system needs to encourage players to think seriously about the conversational (and other) choices they make, and part of that is not necessarily knowing what the outcome of those choices will be.

Anyway, regardless, I'm glad to see this thread going strong. Viva discussion

I'm still torn on the coloured text issue. I think it could be useful and fun if it showed up occasionally as a dialogue option for Shep to actively flirt - primarily because I don't find the text sample to always be an accurate reflection of what Shep ends up saying. My MShep ended up accidentally flirting with Kelly because I misinterpreted the response text - she'd said something about wanted to massage Garrus, and instead of encouraging her in her interest (I thought Shep was going with a 'you go, girl' or similar), Shep ended up asking for similar treatment.

OTOH, I'm not on board with including coloured text to avoid romantic dialogue entirely; if the devs have allowed for flirting by squadmates, then accept or decline as desired. It'd be better if it could be done in a number of ways (decline graciously/flattered, humourously, curtly/incredulously, etc.), but what should be under the player's control is Shepard's response (dev-dependent), not the actions of the NPCs. It's why I'm also not a fan of the character-creation toggle.

I mean, renegade and 'evil' dialogue choices and actions make me uncomfortable; I've never run a character in a Bioware game that wasn't good/lightside/open palm/paragon. But should I have the option to select that my Shep's a paragon at character creation, so I never have to see the renegade interrupts or dialogue options? That cheapens the game, IMO. Just because I'm not likely to pick them doesn't mean I shouldn't see them - it's an acknowledgement that the game could go differently, and that's not a bad thing.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 23 mars 2010 - 09:27 .

[Collider]

Colored text is fine. Unknowingly choosing flirting dialogue is AWFUL. It's the same thing as Shepard sounding like she wants to rape Jacob. It character assassinates your Shepard. If not colored text, we need to make the romance dialogue more obvious. Especially in light of same sex romances.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

catabuca wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Hm...still maybe an option to turn off colored text in the options menu for those like you that don't want it? I really don't want to end up with another "teh priiize" moment. Or FemShep leering at Jacob. I really, really, don't.

But the answer to that is to improve the quality of the writing and the way conversations are implemented, not to effectively say to the story team 'oh, okay, you're rubbish at writing these conversations, so carry on being rubbish but mark up the rubbish options you give us in different colours so we at least know which option is least awful'.

A world of this. I think a lot of people would like to see Bioware get off the train of thought that says 'I'm interested in talking to you' = 'I'm interested in having sex with you.'

Maybe have solely PC initiated romance, and make the flirting obvious - not just dialogue that someone interested in being friends would say, but something that indicates 'this PC finds you attractive and would like to pursue.' NPCs could still flirt or show interest, but whether the romance continues would be up to one or two very clear dialogue choices by the PC.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 23 mars 2010 - 09:26 .

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

Colored text is fine. Unknowingly choosing flirting dialogue is AWFUL. It's the same thing as Shepard sounding like she wants to rape Jacob. It character assassinates your Shepard. If not colored text, we need to make the romance dialogue more obvious. Especially in light of same sex romances.

My point is that the story team need to sharpen their skills at writing these romances/friendships in the first place so that things like the femShep/Jacob debacle are avoided. Asking for coloured text instead is like saying we understand Bioware are crap at writing romances, so we'd like a heads up. No, what we should say is hey Bioware, get better at writing romances. They dropped the ball on this one in ME2, massively.

I'll reply to others in separate posts, to avoid walls'o'text

[Mimaiselphenai]

catabuca wrote...

Collider wrote...

Colored text is fine. Unknowingly choosing flirting dialogue is AWFUL. It's the same thing as Shepard sounding like she wants to rape Jacob. It character assassinates your Shepard. If not colored text, we need to make the romance dialogue more obvious. Especially in light of same sex romances.

My point is that the story team need to sharpen their skills at writing these romances/friendships in the first place so that things like the femShep/Jacob debacle are avoided. Asking for coloured text instead is like saying we understand Bioware are crap at writing romances, so we'd like a heads up. No, what we should say is hey Bioware, get better at writing romances. They dropped the ball on this one in ME2, massively.

I'll reply to others in separate posts, to avoid walls'o'text

Exactly. Colored text would only make it more hammy. As it stands though, regardless of whether or not the game will have s/s romances in the future, most of the romance moments in both ME1 and 2 are never convincing to me. They always end up making me laugh and shake my head. Namely the things Shepard says. Shepard's always the cheesy one (and Jacob, of course). =/

[catabuca]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

1. Why are you against setting sexual orientation in the menu?

snip

2. Why should they be the same way?  Have they been done the same way so far? 
This is about ME not DA or any other franchises.

1. I'm against setting sexual orientation in the menu because I think it sends the wrong message about sexuality, and gives too much credence those who get icky at the thought of any sexuality that does not match their own. It should be handled through good writing, not through menu toggles.

2. The primary reason these s/s threads keep popping up is because Bioware has such a stellar reputation for being inclusive in their games in the past, something a lot of people would love to continue. By 'being done the same way' I mean through storytelling and well-written dialogue options, and not through an arbitrary toggle in a menu somewhere.

[Blackveldt]

Even if Bioware decided to include s/s relationships in ME3, I do not see them implementing colored fonts and especially not a choose-your-sexual-orientation in menu. The former because Bioware, while being open to change, is known for consistency in appearance and utilization (especially in a series like ME). The hair styles alone allude to this. Continuity, familiarity, etc. Colored font has the potential to confuse even old players: why is this font in color? What does it mean? And to find out, they would have to actually click it, beginning a relationship that may be undesirable. What's perhaps more important, however, is that colored fonts would be obvious (no doubt) and Bioware has been all about the players exploring their choices. Otherwise, they would have labeled normal Paragon/Renegade responses (aside from charm options).

What is much more likely is Bioware simply putting a 'romance' option on the opposite side of the dialogue wheel; it doesn't label it or make it obvious, but it would set it apart from the other normal responses.

The sexual orientation menu would not work for a few reasons:
1) It puts too much (and perhaps unwanted) significance and emphasis on sexual orientation. It may give the wrong idea that yes, your orientation does matter--and not in the innocent 'I-just-want-certain-romances' way.
2) Label much?
3) It has the potential to make a lot of gamers not only confused, but uncomfortable. Why is this so important? I already know who I am; why do I need to 'label' my avatar? And don't forget those players that don't like the illusion of a potential bi/gay Shepard--this would be, in essence, shoving it in their faces. Whether or not that's 'right' is irrelevant; Bioware has always tried to cater to all of their gamers as well as achieve success in terms of . . . well . . . making money.

Personally, I would hate a 'sexual orientation menu'--I don't like the idea of such importance (even if unintentional) placed on something like that. Not to mention the encouragement of dichotomized scales to measure something so vast and complex as sexuality. The colored fonts is a cool idea, but it's really too late to implement it without confusing a lot of gamers. In The Masquerade: Bloodlines, it worked because it was not only a stand-alone game, but because there was also another 'colored font' for another ability--it was not exclusive to relationships. Which is another issue: they were abilities / powers--not romance dialogue.

I agree with what another user had stated: The problem lies in m/f relationships--'ninja romance,' so to speak. Bioware will simply need to implement better writing (and perhaps dialogue layout) with less ambiguous options and dialogue.

Modifié par Blackveldt, 23 mars 2010 - 09:40 .

[Mimaiselphenai]

Even though having a color coded menu/dialog option would follow ME's track record perfectly. UP means good, DOWN means bad! UP means straight, DOWN means gay.

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...
My point is that the story team need to sharpen their skills at writing these romances/friendships in the first place so that things like the femShep/Jacob debacle are avoided. Asking for coloured text instead is like saying we understand Bioware are crap at writing romances, so we'd like a heads up. No, what we should say is hey Bioware, get better at writing romances. They dropped the ball on this one in ME2, massively.

I disagree. The romances in ME1 had their own flaws.
Ashley: You could have no idea you're even romancing her. And eventually you get locked in - she asks you if you're still interested, and all of the options say yes in different ways. I was just being nice to her and apparently she thinks I want to bed her.
Kaidan: Apparently being nice to him gives him mixed signals.
Liara: She wants to rape Shepard from the first conversation.

In some aspects ME1 romances were handled better, in some ways ME2 romances were handled better. I don't think there is a dichotomy here.

The problem is that a lot of the time people misinterpret what they think Shepard will say from the dialogue option. Color coding romance dialogue just makes the player sure that if you pick this, you're going to start flirting. Doesn't mean you can't flirt in different ways, just means the player won't misinterpret.

[catabuca]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Exactly. Colored text would only make it more hammy. As it stands though, regardless of whether or not the game will have s/s romances in the future, most of the romance moments in both ME1 and 2 are never convincing to me. They always end up making me laugh and shake my head. Namely the things Shepard says. Shepard's always the cheesy one (and Jacob, of course). =/

I found it all entirely more convincing in ME1, and massively hit and miss in ME2. As it is, any of my femShep playthroughs will be completely faithful to Kaidan and simply avoid as much as possible speaking to the potential ME2 LIs because it's almost unbearable.

That being said, I think there's always going to be an element of having to suspend your disbelief because for as long as Shepard is voiced (which I wholeheartedly prefer over the silent DA:O character, btw, but that's a whole other thread) there is only ever going to be so much of your voice and/or emotional inflection in what Shepard says. That's completely unavoidable, and has been discussed at length in some of the Hale/Meer VA threads, so I won't rehash it here.

[Collider]

Blackveldt wrote...
blablablah

Which is why I also support romance dialogue being obvious. Ashley was a great example of romance dialogue not being obvious. Should especially be obvious with S/S options since apparently some people get offended by it.

[catabuca]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

catabuca wrote...
My point is that the story team need to sharpen their skills at writing these romances/friendships in the first place so that things like the femShep/Jacob debacle are avoided. Asking for coloured text instead is like saying we understand Bioware are crap at writing romances, so we'd like a heads up. No, what we should say is hey Bioware, get better at writing romances. They dropped the ball on this one in ME2, massively.

Frankly that is enough to make me lose faith.  I don't think anyone would blame me for losing it either.

I don't blame you for losing faith. I'm feeling pretty crappy about the whole ME franchise at the moment for various reasons I won't go over in this thread, and it's a shame when that happens.

However, I think it's infinitely more worthwhile pushing for better writing, more nuanced dialogue options, and better implemented and varied romance/friendship options than simply accepting that we're going to get sub-standard fare from now on and ask for coloured text highlighting the crappy options.

[Mimaiselphenai]

catabuca wrote...

I found it all entirely more convincing in ME1, and massively hit and miss in ME2. As it is, any of my femShep playthroughs will be completely faithful to Kaidan and simply avoid as much as possible speaking to the potential ME2 LIs because it's almost unbearable.

That being said, I think there's always going to be an element of having to suspend your disbelief because for as long as Shepard is voiced (which I wholeheartedly prefer over the silent DA:O character, btw, but that's a whole other thread) there is only ever going to be so much of your voice and/or emotional inflection in what Shepard says. That's completely unavoidable, and has been discussed at length in some of the Hale/Meer VA threads, so I won't rehash it here.

I dunno. In both games it seems rushed and poorly handled, though I guess that can't be avoided if the intention is to have a "fulfilled" romance in a single game. Still, it would have been nice to have the option of building a relationship instead of consumating at the end of ME1, since Bioware already had planned for a trilogy.

And I didn't so much mean the voice acting, just the actual lines. Shepard's dialog in the romance sequences always just seems uninspired. Maybe it's just me.

[Collider]

I just don't see what the problem is with colored text. Having colored text does not preclude having improved friendship and romances. Simply allows for the player to know whether or not they are flirting or entering a relationship. You can have the uncolored subtlety you want prior, but as to whether or not Shepard is about to enter a relationship, it should be obvious.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Collider wrote...

I just don't see what the problem is with colored text. Having colored text does not preclude having improved friendship and romances. Simply allows for the player to know whether or not they are flirting or entering a relationship. You can have the uncolored subtlety you want prior, but as to whether or not Shepard is about to enter a relationship, it should be obvious.

I think his point is that if the writing was better, there wouldn't be a need for colored text. Though honestly, I never ran into the problem of "accidentally" romancing a character in either game.

[Collider]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Collider wrote...

I just don't see what the problem is with colored text. Having colored text does not preclude having improved friendship and romances. Simply allows for the player to know whether or not they are flirting or entering a relationship. You can have the uncolored subtlety you want prior, but as to whether or not Shepard is about to enter a relationship, it should be obvious.

I think his point is that if the writing was better, there wouldn't be a need for colored text. Though honestly, I never ran into the problem of "accidentally" romancing a character in either game.

I did. Ashley. Fortunately I virmired her.

[SOULdi3r]

im against homosexuality on principle, but im also against murder which i do in games, any way my main proboblem with this is i i think people make the romances to big of a deal in the first place and secondly i hate how any time you talk to a potential romance in bioware games your options are
A)flirt with them
B)be a jerk

I JUST WANT TO BE YOUR FRIEND LIARA/MIRIANDA/ASHELY/ ANYONE DAMN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(besides tali )

[Mimaiselphenai]

Collider wrote...


I did. Ashley. Fortunately I virmired her.

I guess it helps that I knew exactly who I was gonna romance in each ME1 playthrough. Still, when it transitioned into flirting, it seemed obvious to me.

[Mimaiselphenai]

SOULdi3r wrote...

im against homosexuality on principle, but im also against murder which i do in games, any way my main proboblem with this is i i think people make the romances to big of a deal in the first place and secondly i hate how any time you talk to a potential romance in bioware games your options are
A)flirt with them
B)be a jerk

I JUST WANT TO BE YOUR FRIEND LIARA/MIRIANDA/ASHELY/ ANYONE DAMN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(besides tali )

That's another point entirely, though. If the option is there to have cheesy romance, it should be available to all.

[Collider]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Collider wrote...


I did. Ashley. Fortunately I virmired her.

I guess it helps that I knew exactly who I was gonna romance in each ME1 playthrough. Still, when it transitioned into flirting, it seemed obvious to me.

I'm not the only that this has happened to. At the very least, we should have able to tell Ashley that we weren't interested in her in the first place and she misinterpreted Shepard.