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[Ryzaki]

Zevran's romance and Sky's romance had no potential for ninja-ing. Neither did Silk Fox. (Probably explains why JE is my favorite BW game).

Still I really don't care how the s/s options are implemented (though it probably would be wisest to do it in the manner of JE just so we don't get the poor heterosexual males whining about how they feel violated. <_< ) so yeah. I'm down with any suggestion as long as its in.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 mars 2010 - 10:05 .

[Mimaiselphenai]

Collider wrote...





I'm not the only that this has happened to. At the very least, we should have able to tell Ashley that we weren't interested in her in the first place and she misinterpreted Shepard.

I'd probably have to play again. I had my sights set on romancing Ashley on my only male playthrough, anyway. Even though I couldn't stand her.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...

Zevran's romance and Sky's romance had no potential for ninja-ing. Neither did Silk Fox. (Probably explains why JE is my favorite BW game).

No, but Ashley certain did.

[catabuca]

I think Blackveldt makes some very, very good points, and what s/he says about the sexual orientation being set in a menu is how I would like to have said it if I was as adept has her/him



I'll concede that perhaps if romance options had been placed in a different place on the wheel from the get-go it might not have been a totally bad idea.



But, I have to admit to still thinking all dialogue options should be together, in the same font/colour etc., but that the writing should be improved across the board.



I'll also say, on the subject of whether Bioware should send a message etc. No, Bioware isn't in the business of making games in order to send a message or take a stand. However, no game (or novel, or film, or song, etc.) exists in a vacuum. When it includes or doesn't include something, anything, it makes an impact whether it intended to or not. Every action makes an intervention - intention merely adds a particular flavour to that intervention. Therefore, it makes sense for Bioware to be aware of the impact its choices have.

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...
But, I have to admit to still thinking all dialogue options should be together, in the same font/colour etc., but that the writing should be improved across the board.

Of course. Basically what I'm saying is that entering a relationship should be obvious. In most cases that appears already to be the case, but I know of at least one ninja romance in Mass Effect, Ashley. One way to make entering a relationship (it isn't a relationship if it's one sided, after all) obvious is to color code the text.

[Mimaiselphenai]

catabuca wrote...

But, I have to admit to still thinking all dialogue options should be together, in the same font/colour etc., but that the writing should be improved across the board.

 

I think so, too. Dialog should be as organic as possible. If the romance options had separate wheels/menus/colors/etc, it'd feel like it was taken aside from the actual game. Honestly, I see no harm in leading an NPC into flirting with you regardless of YOUR orientation. Isn't that kind of part of the experience? Characters you have no control of will behave as they will behave, that's what they're supposed to do. As long as you always have control of how Shepard will react, of course.

It seems to me that most of the people here are against the idea due to how Bioware's handled romance so far, not because they have issues with homosexuality (though that probably plays a part as well). If that's the case, it's not a reason to argue against same-sex pairings, but a complaint of Bioware's writing as was mentioned.

[Collider]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

catabuca wrote...

But, I have to admit to still thinking all dialogue options should be together, in the same font/colour etc., but that the writing should be improved across the board.

 

I think so, too. Dialog should be as organic as possible. If the romance options had separate wheels/menus/colors/etc, it'd feel like it was taken aside from the actual game.

I don't see how coloring the romance dialouge makes it less organic. You can have all the subtlety of the romance, the only difference is that you know that Shepard is flirting.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...


Of course. Basically what I'm saying is that entering a relationship should be obvious. In most cases that appears already to be the case, but I know of at least one ninja romance in Mass Effect, Ashley. One way to make entering a relationship (it isn't a relationship if it's one sided, after all) obvious is to color code the text.

Just to be utterly contrary, the one single solitary time I wanted my manShep to have a romance with Ashley I couldn't get it to happen for love nor money

But that's by-the-by.

I'm in agreement that it would be a good thing if the ninja romance issue was sorted for ME3. I think the only place we disagree is on how we'd like it to be implemented. I want the writers to go back to the drawing board and implement it in a way that makes it more natural, with options for letting people down easy, remaining friends, being clear about only wanting to be friends in the first place, being able to flirt, or not, and so on - all integrated into the current dialogue system. It'd feel even more awkward, to me, if there was a big neon sign being held by someone shouting 'THIS IS THE SEXYTIMES OPTION - DO NOT CLICK IF YOU DON'T WANT TEH SEXYTIMES'.

In terms of the role-playing aspect of the game, the former option seems far more realistic. If someone has hit on me in the past, I have yet to notice the dude with the neon sign

[Ryzaki]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Zevran's romance and Sky's romance had no potential for ninja-ing. Neither did Silk Fox. (Probably explains why JE is my favorite BW game).

Still I really don't care how the s/s options are implemented (though it probably would be wisest to do it in the manner of JE just so we don't get the poor heterosexual males whining about how they feel violated. <_< ) so yeah. I'm down with any suggestion as long as its in.

<_<

Hey I didn't say all! 

But the vast amounts of "beware Zevran's massage!" threads in the DA boards the first 2 weeks of release were ridculous. Funny but sad at the same time.

...doesn't help that he pretty much says "this is what I learned in a wh***house."

Like...how hard is it to figure out what he means? 

And all the complaining: "I can't raise his approval unless I flirt with him!" and the "he raped my PC!" and not to mention all the "that weird gay elf!" threads.

*shakes head*

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 mars 2010 - 10:20 .

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...

Collider wrote...


Of course. Basically what I'm saying is that entering a relationship should be obvious. In most cases that appears already to be the case, but I know of at least one ninja romance in Mass Effect, Ashley. One way to make entering a relationship (it isn't a relationship if it's one sided, after all) obvious is to color code the text.

Just to be utterly contrary, the one single solitary time I wanted my manShep to have a romance with Ashley I couldn't get it to happen for love nor money

Just goes to show that it should have been handled better.

'THIS IS THE SEXYTIMES OPTION - DO NOT CLICK IF YOU DON'T WANT TEH SEXYTIMES'.

Did you feel that the Charm/Intimidate thing was awkward? All I'm saying is the dialogue option for beginning the romance officially (not all of the optional subtlety before hand) should be colored coded or made very obvious.


Fortunately, ME2 does not seem to have this problem. I also don't agree with you that ME1 romances were markedly better than ME2 romances. Each had their cons and their pros. I'll give you that Jacob's wasn't handled very well at all, but that's 5 out of 6.

In terms of the role-playing aspect of the game, the former option seems far more realistic. If someone has hit on me in the past, I have yet to notice the dude with the neon sign

People know whether or not they themselves are flirting most of time. Sometimes there's a slip of the tongue, but we wouldn't want for Shepard.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Collider wrote...


Did you feel that the Charm/Intimidate thing was awkward? All I'm saying is the dialogue option for beginning the romance officially (not all of the optional subtlety before hand) should be colored coded or made very obvious.

They aren't exactly the same thing, though. Those options are based on a moral code, or lack thereof. Sexuality isn't strictly "blue for straight," "red for gay" for many people. Some might be more drawn to a particular character because of their personality, what they've struggled through in their past. How cute they are, how selfless they are, how sadistic they are, etc etc. So color coding romantic dialog would feel tacked on and would take away from the roleplaying experience, I'd think.

Then again, not everyone is strictly a saint or ****, but that's once again a fault of implementation.

[alienuterus]

 I'd love my femshep to be able to have a lesbian relationship because, well, I'm a straight guy, and I like girls. Conversely, I see no legitimate reason why a gay man can't get a little action of his preference as well. Holding back on that is just juvenile IMHO. 

Consider the fact that people are hacking their way into same sex relationships, and there are guides on how to do so. This is a feature that people want.

I'm not saying every character should be romanceable in this way, because that's just not how life is. But at least Jack and maybe Thane seem like good candidates. 

[Collider]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Collider wrote...


Did you feel that the Charm/Intimidate thing was awkward? All I'm saying is the dialogue option for beginning the romance officially (not all of the optional subtlety before hand) should be colored coded or made very obvious.

They aren't exactly the same thing, though. Those options are based on a moral code, or lack thereof. Sexuality isn't strictly "blue for straight," "red for gay" for many people.

Blue for straight or red for gay isn't what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting letting the player know explicitely that they are about to flirt. Just as blue lets the player know Shepard is going to charm persuading.

[Blackveldt]

Collider wrote...

Blackveldt wrote...
blablablah

Which is why I also support romance dialogue being obvious. Ashley was a great example of romance dialogue not being obvious. Should especially be obvious with S/S options since apparently some people get offended by it.

Thank you for such an accurate quote.

My main point(s) had been centered around the effective utilization of colored fonts and a sexual-orientation menu, offering possible alternatives that is most likely to be implemented (via rudimentary predictive model).  In fact, I even state that romance dialogue should be "less ambigous" a.k.a. more "obvious" via writing and display.  As an aside, I mentioned my personal tastes; my own desires are irrelevant.

I might also add that it is entirely feasible that people uncomfortable with s/s relationships may be even more susceptible to obvious s/s options, as it is no longer an allusion.

JohnnyDollar wrote...
You always make
these long posts.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]

Ah, but I must not only provide a reasonable conclusion, but explain how I arrived at said conclusion via citations, logical reasoning, and examples.  My beginning, middle, and end.  *Cough*  Besides, it's fun; do not deprive me!

I still
don't think that messages/labels that Bioware may send
concerning
orientation settings should be a part of the discussion though.

I was not talking about whether or not it is Bioware's 'job,' so to speak, but rather that, by placing significance on sexual orientation, they not only give (orientation) more weight than it is worth, but may also inadvertently detract from Shepard's character and more important qualities that make him/her a great leader and Commander.

Ah ye of little faith in fellow gamers.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

Yes, but that only makes me a bit of a realist.  Lol.  (With the ability to read.  These forums.  Ahem.)

Modifié par Blackveldt, 23 mars 2010 - 10:34 .

[Mimaiselphenai]

Collider wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Collider wrote...


Did you feel that the Charm/Intimidate thing was awkward? All I'm saying is the dialogue option for beginning the romance officially (not all of the optional subtlety before hand) should be colored coded or made very obvious.

They aren't exactly the same thing, though. Those options are based on a moral code, or lack thereof. Sexuality isn't strictly "blue for straight," "red for gay" for many people.

Blue for straight or red for gay isn't what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting letting the player know explicitely that they are about to flirt. Just as blue lets the player know Shepard is going to charm persuading.

Yeah, I was just thinking in terms of polar opposites. Realized I missed the mark a little after posting. In any case though, decisions being based on definites, especially for character interaction, takes away from the experience in my opinion. It'd just feel like another "game mechanic." Dialog needs fluidity.

[Collider]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...
Yeah, I was just thinking in terms of polar opposites. Realized I missed the mark a little after posting. In any case though, decisions being based on definites, especially for character interaction, takes away from the experience in my opinion.

You need to be more specific than this. I'm sure you've got a great point, but you're not getting to me.

[FataliTensei]

catabuca wrote...

Collider wrote...

Colored text is fine. Unknowingly choosing flirting dialogue is AWFUL. It's the same thing as Shepard sounding like she wants to rape Jacob. It character assassinates your Shepard. If not colored text, we need to make the romance dialogue more obvious. Especially in light of same sex romances.

My point is that the story team need to sharpen their skills at writing these romances/friendships in the first place so that things like the femShep/Jacob debacle are avoided. Asking for coloured text instead is like saying we understand Bioware are crap at writing romances, so we'd like a heads up. No, what we should say is hey Bioware, get better at writing romances. They dropped the ball on this one in ME2, massively.

I'll reply to others in separate posts, to avoid walls'o'text

I think the only well written romance was Thane's

but for the most part the romances seemed rushed

[Collider]

FataliTensei wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Collider wrote...

Colored text is fine. Unknowingly choosing flirting dialogue is AWFUL. It's the same thing as Shepard sounding like she wants to rape Jacob. It character assassinates your Shepard. If not colored text, we need to make the romance dialogue more obvious. Especially in light of same sex romances.

My point is that the story team need to sharpen their skills at writing these romances/friendships in the first place so that things like the femShep/Jacob debacle are avoided. Asking for coloured text instead is like saying we understand Bioware are crap at writing romances, so we'd like a heads up. No, what we should say is hey Bioware, get better at writing romances. They dropped the ball on this one in ME2, massively.

I'll reply to others in separate posts, to avoid walls'o'text

I think the only well written romance was Thane's

but for the most part the romances seemed rushed

Have you done all of the romances? If not, you should consider reconsidering your opinion.

[catabuca]

Collider: the primary gripes I have with ME2's relationships (apart from the lack of s/s, of course!) are the aforementioned femShep/Jacob awfulness, and the way there is no option to maintain a friendly relationship with any potential LI if you choose not to romance them. All things that can be sorted with better writing.



The reason I preferred ME1 romances was because on the whole they felt more emotional. I admit, the lead up to Thane's is very moving and well-written, but my dislike of ME2's portrayal of femShep makes it hard to be completely sold on it. I felt manShep was more sexually agressive in ME2, and the 'relationships' were more about sex than any lasting committment. Perhaps this was how it was intended, thinking on the comments about 'cheating'.



In terms of the coloured options for charm/intimidate - I hadn't really thought about that. I suppose I accept it because it's been like that since the first game and is just how the game works. Therefore, I suppose part of the reason I'm against it for romance dialogue options is because it hasn't been there from the start.



Either way, I think we're all agreed that the writing needs to be up to scratch. It's really freaking jarring in ME2 (I honestly didn't feel that way about ME1, but that's horses for courses), and I was quite shocked Bioware had done it the way they had.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Collider wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...
Yeah, I was just thinking in terms of polar opposites. Realized I missed the mark a little after posting. In any case though, decisions being based on definites, especially for character interaction, takes away from the experience in my opinion.

You need to be more specific than this. I'm sure you've got a great point, but you're not getting to me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if there was a "helper" for romancing characters, it wouldn't feel like character interaction anymore. It'd be more like a means to an end. It makes a little more sense for paragon/renegade options, since when you follow a blue or red dialog line, you're rewarded with extra charm/intimidation points. But when you're conversing with a squad member and learning about them, and then up pops a "do this for sex, this for just-friends" option, it wouldn't be as natural. I'd much rather there be several options of how to handle the conversation if you do or don't want to continue flirting with that character than a sudden wall of "forward" or "back."