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[Collider]

catabuca wrote...

Collider: the primary gripes I have with ME2's relationships (apart from the lack of s/s, of course!) are the aforementioned femShep/Jacob awfulness, and the way there is no option to maintain a friendly relationship with any potential LI if you choose not to romance them. All things that can be sorted with better writing.

Ah. I thought you meant romances not general relationships. I'm not really sure if we were able to become friends with the ME1 love interests either, to be honest. In fact, I'm pretty sure you get extra dialogue (as in an extra conversation(s)) if you romanced a character in ME1 versus if you didn't. How is that different from ME2? To be honest, DA:O did the friendship thing much better than both games.

The reason I preferred ME1 romances was because on the whole they felt more emotional.I admit, the lead up to Thane's is very moving and well-written, but my dislike of ME2's portrayal of femShep makes it hard to be completely sold on it. I felt manShep was more sexually agressive in ME2, and the 'relationships' were more about sex than any lasting committment. Perhaps this was how it was intended, thinking on the comments about 'cheating'.

Well, I'd like to ask if you've played all of the ME2 romances. I found Liara's romance as being quite sexual myself. So far as Tali goes, there already is history and friendship and trust as precedence for it, and the fact that Tali could die from being with Shepard pretty much eliminates any evidence to it being just sex or a fling. I also found it to be emotional, there's all this catharsis from Tali watching Shepard all this time and not knowing if he could ever feel the same.

The paragon romance with Jack also rejects simply sex - as just having casual sex with her makes her hate you. She also cries in the romance scene because she finally found someone who doesn't want to just use her. Miranda's romance also - though I have not done it - would probably be not fair to say that it's just sex.

Either way, I think we're all agreed that the writing needs to be up to scratch. It's really freaking jarring in ME2 (I honestly didn't feel that way about ME1, but that's horses for courses), and I was quite shocked Bioware had done it the way they had.

I think you should explain how you feel ME1 romances are so different from ME2 romances.

Modifié par Collider, 23 mars 2010 - 10:44 .

[catabuca]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if there was a "helper" for romancing characters, it wouldn't feel like character interaction anymore. It'd be more like a means to an end. It makes a little more sense for paragon/renegade options, since when you follow a blue or red dialog line, you're rewarded with extra charm/intimidation points. But when you're conversing with a squad member and learning about them, and then up pops a "do this for sex, this for just-friends" option, it wouldn't be as natural. I'd much rather there be several options of how to handle the conversation if you do or don't want to continue flirting with that character than a sudden wall of "forward" or "back."

I agree with this.

I know some don't like the way it was handled in DA:O, but I liked the way diaglogue was handled. If you took your time and thought about it carefully, it was possible to work out what the possible direction the conversation would go in would be.

It did take me a while to get used to it, but I believe my experience was all the richer for it.

Of course, the difference is that once you'd chosen your dialogue option in DA:O all you had to worry about was how the NPC you were talking to would react. You can no more control their reaction in the game than you can in real life. In ME, however, because Shepard is voiced and his/her speech isn't exactly the same as the dialogue you click there is a lot more room for interpretation. It often ends up with you clicking one option and Shep saying something you really wish s/he wouldn't.

I would rather this be cleared up through better correlation between the words on the dialogue wheel and the words that come out of Shep's mouth, through better writing and story implementation, and not through different colours. It really is a small point, I guess, but it would feel more natural.

I do take your point, Collider, about it being just one instance of coloured text that indicated whether you were moving into a relationship or not. I'd rather the relationships be handled in a fluid way, where the process of pursuing a relationship is a gradual one, and with there being any number of points at which you can express your interest.

[Collider]

Samara, Morinth, Shiala, Liara, and Kelley are bisexual. Even though none of them are the typical romance, all of them have F/F content. It's an important note however that for some stupid reason, lesbians are more tolerated than gays in western culture.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Collider wrote...

Samara, Morinth, Shiala, Liara, and Kelley are bisexual. Even though none of them are the typical romance, all of them have F/F content. It's an important note however that for some stupid reason, lesbians are more tolerated than gays in western culture.

It's largely because when the majority of people think about lesbianism, they imagine two supermodels kissing each other. And the polar opposite for two men.
 Well, not LARGELY, but I'm sure that has something to do with the stigma.

Modifié par Mimaiselphenai, 23 mars 2010 - 11:00 .

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...
I do take your point, Collider, about it being just one instance of coloured text that indicated whether you were moving into a relationship or not. I'd rather the relationships be handled in a fluid way, where the process of pursuing a relationship is a gradual one, and with there being any number of points at which you can express your interest.

Who says that couldn't happen with colored text? The relationship can be gradual and subtle all you like, but eventually there must come a clear decision as to whether the player wants to begin the relationship. A romance where it feels like both of participants instinctively know that they're into each other without explicitely saying it may seem ideal, but is rather unfair to the player whom should be able to decide whether or not this happens. So what exactly am I proposing? Take the Kaidan romance for example. You can make him smile by saying it's not your fault, you can compliment him here and there, but eventually, if I'm not mistaken, there comes a time where the player must make a decision - whether or not they're in a relationship or whether the relationship should continue.

so you've been flirting with Kaidan a little, and he asks about mixed signals. Just have the "yep, I'm into you" option in colored text.
If the dialogue option seems vague, like "I appreciate you," then the color allows for people to avoid getting into the romance accidentally. If the dialogue option is obvious like "I want to be more than just friends" than you would know anyways without the color, so no harm done.

[Collider]

I don't really think it has to do with whether males dominate the society. You can look at many male dominated societies through history and lesbianism could be just as vilified if not more than homosexuality.

IMO, it's just people in general, especially guys - girls seem to be more accepting of homosexuality in general for some reason. Guys think lesbians? Awesome! Girls think gays? Awesome! Of course I don't drool over lesbians, but that's the impression I get from some people. I imagine the (particular) tolerance for lesbians for guys and the tolerance for gays for women has to do with relatability. You could relate to a lesbian if you're a straight guy because you like girls too. You could relate to a gay guy if you're a straight woman because you like guys too.

Modifié par Collider, 23 mars 2010 - 11:08 .

[Mimaiselphenai]

Women are just more aesthetically pleasing than men, in most people's eyes. Makes it a little easier to accept. The constant display of female sexuality in media doesn't hurt, either.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

I think you should explain how you feel ME1 romances are so different from ME2 romances.

I did, you even quoted it! Just because you disagree with my opinion doesn't mean I didn't express one, nor does it invalidate it. We can believe different things.

The reason I preferred ME1 romances was because they felt more emotional to me. That's a subjective thing.

In terms of Liara - she came on pretty strong, and I disliked that, which is why I didn't romance her very often (twice I think). My main romance in ME1 was with Kaidan, and I liked it a lot. I felt comfortable with it, I liked the character of Kaidan, I liked the sex scene ... it all gelled well together.

As far as ME2 goes, I found Shepard to be more sexually agressive in tone. What may have been intended to merely be 'flirty' came across to me as being more about trying to chase a bit of tail. I did pursue both the renegade and paragon romance options with Jack. I just didn't feel it though, not in its entirety. Hers was a good story, no doubt. But it still didn't leave me with the warm and fuzzies that ME1 did.

Like I said, I thought Thane's was well-written too, but again, just didn't have the same impact as ME1. The romance with Miranda didn't feel emotional at all. I felt more emotion doing her loyalty mission. I have only watched the vids for Tali's romance, because I don't see her as a romancable character (she's Shep's little sister), and I am one of those who disliked the way it was handled in ME2. I don't want to deny the option of her being romancable to others, but I wish there was more on offer in terms of dialogue for those who don't want that. As it is you either have to stop talking to her or you have to let her down in such a way as it feels pretty awkward and horrible.  We all know Jacob's romance is handled badly. As for Garrus, again I've only watched online, because he doesn't interest me like that, and maybe that's why it doesn't feel emotionally engaging.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...
So what exactly am I proposing? Take the Kaidan romance for example. You can make him smile by saying it's not your fault, you can compliment him here and there, but eventually, if I'm not mistaken, there comes a time where the player must make a decision - whether or not they're in a relationship or whether the relationship should continue.

so you've been flirting with Kaidan a little, and he asks about mixed signals. Just have the "yep, I'm into you" option in colored text.
If the dialogue option seems vague, like "I appreciate you," then the color allows for people to avoid getting into the romance accidentally. If the dialogue option is obvious like "I want to be more than just friends" than you would know anyways without the color, so no harm done.

What I'm saying is that I personally would prefer the writing team to work on making the dialogue wheel options and the words that come out of Shep's mouth correspond more closely, so there are less nasty surprises, at the same time as making those dialogue wheel options more obvious, along the lines of 'yep, I'm into you'. Then there is no need for coloured text.

My argument was that if we just plump for coloured text it's like we accept that Bioware are going to get it wrong with the writing.

We both want options to be clearer to the player. We just differ on how best to get there. That's not a problem. I'm probably not going to change your mind. You're not going to change mine. We're both working towards the same thing, ultimately

[catabuca]

I have to go. It's late here in the UK. So please don't anyone think I'm ignoring them if I don't answer for the next few hours



Keep fighting the good fight, s/s comrades

[Collider]

Thanks for explaining your position cata. Generally speaking I would say that people are more taken by the romances of the character they genuinely like, in your case that would be Kaidan. To be honest, I found ME2 romances to be more emotional, ME1 romances seemed more of "we're interested in each other." I do agree however that the ME1 romances were paced together, but they did feel less emotional.



The reason why I feel that ME2 romances (aside from Jacob) were more emotional is because you had a stake in the character. You risked your life to help them out and you've gained their trust. And trust is very important in a relationship. For Tali Shepard is among the only people she feels she can trust - the one she can trust the most in fact. Jack gets her first friend in her entire life who has not died, left her, or used her. You helped Miranda with her sister whom she cares a lot about (even crying) even when it's completely irrelevant to the mission and Miranda's already signed on with Cerberus. I feel there's a lot more precedence to the romances in ME2, a lot more emotion even if it is more sexualized.

[Blackveldt]

Collider wrote...
I think you should explain how you feel ME1 romances are so different from ME2 romances.

The advances are more subtle and the relationships are gradually built up at a relatively constant rate.  Relationships in ME1 also favored complexity.

1)  Subtle advances
Flirting and romantic dialogue was not as clear-cut in ME1 as ME2 (in both text and actual voiced dialogue).  Your female Shepard could converse with Kaidan and simultaneously build up a friendship and romance--they were one in the same.  This gave the feel that one was not only building a friendship, but a romance based upon said friendship, providing a much more realistic and deeper relationship.  Of course, this had the potential to become problematic with players who did not wish to engage in a romantic relationship with a particular NPC and perhaps even cease future conversations.  But that is another issue.  In any case, in ME2, it is more of a straight-to-business ordeal when dealing with romance.

ME2 Examples:
- Male Shepard with Miranda
Shepard:  I can't admire your body or your mind?  You give your father too much credit...
Miranda:  Oh!  Thank you...perhaps I wouldn't mind if you admired my body.
Then, Shepard can either choose 'I'm admiring it right now' or 'No.  We can't do this.'  Whether or not Shepard's comment was meant to initiate a romance is irrelevant as Miranda makes her intentions clear--and the jump from subordinate to LI rather sudden.
- Male Shepard with Tali
Tali:  (stuttering) . . . Wow, it's hot in here.  It's just that the tradition also signifies a willingness for, um, intimacy...
Shepard:  Wait a minute; it sounds like you're suggesting something.
The major reason why a Tali romance is more meaningful than other LIs is because of her role in ME1.

ME1 Examples:
- Female Shepard with Kaidan
Kaidan:  *giving personal input and advice in regards to the most recent mission*:  I've seen what cutting corners can do and I'd hate to have that happen to you, Shepard...Commander.
There is always a professional air about the ME1 relationships; it is also against regulations.  This alone demands that the romances be more subtle.

Shepard:  I'm trying to get a sense of where the crew's at.  Thoughts?
Kaidan:  ...There's gotta be some xenobiologists who want to read about the Thorian.
Shepard:  The paperwork will keep...
And yet, this very non-romantic, casual conversation contributes to and furthers romance with Kaidan.

2)  Relationships progress at a constant rate
This is very significant because you never get that gradual build-up of a relationship in ME2.  In fact, you cannot pursue a romance until after you have finished that particular LI's loyalty quest.  And while this fact helped a bit in the friendship/romance department (getting to know your character), it is ultimately a mission--and a mandatory one at that to increase survival rate for the Suicide Mission.  It is also rushed as it happens in one short-lived quest, which is not nearly as an efficient way to 'bond' or build a friendship as demonstrated in ME1 with its constant (and different) conversations after a mission.  In ME1, you talked with your subordinates because you wanted to, not because it was a part of a mission or because you had to.

3)  Complexity
By complexity, I mean that you could have a 'bad' or unfaithful relationship in ME1.  You could romance both Kaidan/Ashley and Liara at the same time and be confronted about it, first subtlely, then obviously (with both in the same room).  In ME2, you must end one relationship before initiating another.

And just to add:  'Locker moment' in ME1, which was a scene in which Shepard and the respective LI shared an intimate, yet non-sexual moment some time before the final mission (and actual sex scene).

[Mimaiselphenai]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Women are just more aesthetically pleasing than men, in most people's eyes. Makes it a little easier to accept. The constant display of female sexuality in media doesn't hurt, either.

If that was the case, then women wouldn't be wearing makeup.  The men would IMO.
In most species the male is the most attractive.  It may be the same for humans.
This is a male dominated society where beautiful females are put on a pedistal.

The fact that women wear makeup has nothing to do with whether or not they're physically more attractive in most poeple's eyes. Though if less did, the scale would probably be a bit more balanced. I'd have made a longer post, but dinner's cooking. =P

[Collider]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Women are just more aesthetically pleasing than men, in most people's eyes. Makes it a little easier to accept. The constant display of female sexuality in media doesn't hurt, either.

If that was the case, then women wouldn't be wearing makeup.  The men would IMO.
In most species the male is the most attractive.  It may be the same for humans.
This is a male dominated society where beautiful females are put on a pedistal.

The fact that women wear makeup has nothing to do with whether or not they're physically more attractive in most poeple's eyes. Though if less did, the scale would probably be a bit more balanced. I'd have made a longer post, but dinner's cooking. =P

Ask women if they think that women are more attractive than men. Most are going to say no.

[Arik7]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Women are just more aesthetically pleasing than men, in most people's eyes. Makes it a little easier to accept. The constant display of female sexuality in media doesn't hurt, either.

Well, in that case, BioWare should make the gay/bi male character very aesthetically pleasing.  There's no other way around it. :-P

[Ryzaki]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Women are just more aesthetically pleasing than men, in most people's eyes. Makes it a little easier to accept. The constant display of female sexuality in media doesn't hurt, either.

If that was the case, then women wouldn't be wearing makeup.  The men would IMO.
In most species the male is the most attractive.  It may be the same for humans.
This is a male dominated society where beautiful females are put on a pedistal.

The fact that women wear makeup has nothing to do with whether or not they're physically more attractive in most poeple's eyes. Though if less did, the scale would probably be a bit more balanced. I'd have made a longer post, but dinner's cooking. =P

I beg to differ. 

Me too. I don't understand why other women place that junk on their face other than to look more attractive. I personally would never use it but I understand why they do.

and the makeup that is just right is always bloody expensive. The whole purpose of makeup is to hide the flaws of a person's face (or in acting case make them look completely different). At its very base its an illusion.
...
...
anyways its mainly used to hide the flaws in one's face and enchance the good parts.
Thus why women who wear makeup tend to be more attractive than men who don't.

Edit: Anyways the romances at heart are only a side-quest in the ME series so I don't want the writers wasting too many resources on the romances instead of something more important like the plot. Thus the color coding. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 mars 2010 - 11:44 .

[Blackveldt]

Think of make-up as art; if you are arguing that women are more aesthetically pleasing, then make-up can potentially be an example of why this is so.

[FataliTensei]

Blackveldt wrote...

Collider wrote...
I think you should explain how you feel ME1 romances are so different from ME2 romances.

The advances are more subtle and the relationships are gradually built up at a relatively constant rate.  Relationships in ME1 also favored complexity.

1)  Subtle advances
Flirting and romantic dialogue was not as clear-cut in ME1 as ME2 (in both text and actual voiced dialogue).  Your female Shepard could converse with Kaidan and simultaneously build up a friendship and romance--they were one in the same.  This gave the feel that one was not only building a friendship, but a romance based upon said friendship, providing a much more realistic and deeper relationship.  Of course, this had the potential to become problematic with players who did not wish to engage in a romantic relationship with a particular NPC and perhaps even cease future conversations.  But that is another issue.  In any case, in ME2, it is more of a straight-to-business ordeal when dealing with romance.

ME2 Examples:
- Male Shepard with Miranda
Shepard:  I can't admire your body or your mind?  You give your father too much credit...
Miranda:  Oh!  Thank you...perhaps I wouldn't mind if you admired my body.
Then, Shepard can either choose 'I'm admiring it right now' or 'No.  We can't do this.'  Whether or not Shepard's comment was meant to initiate a romance is irrelevant as Miranda makes her intentions clear--and the jump from subordinate to LI rather sudden.
- Male Shepard with Tali
Tali:  (stuttering) . . . Wow, it's hot in here.  It's just that the tradition also signifies a willingness for, um, intimacy...
Shepard:  Wait a minute; it sounds like you're suggesting something.
The major reason why a Tali romance is more meaningful than other LIs is because of her role in ME1.

ME1 Examples:
- Female Shepard with Kaidan
Kaidan:  *giving personal input and advice in regards to the most recent mission*:  I've seen what cutting corners can do and I'd hate to have that happen to you, Shepard...Commander.
There is always a professional air about the ME1 relationships; it is also against regulations.  This alone demands that the romances be more subtle.

Shepard:  I'm trying to get a sense of where the crew's at.  Thoughts?
Kaidan:  ...There's gotta be some xenobiologists who want to read about the Thorian.
Shepard:  The paperwork will keep...
And yet, this very non-romantic, casual conversation contributes to and furthers romance with Kaidan.

2)  Relationships progress at a constant rate
This is very significant because you never get that gradual build-up of a relationship in ME2.  In fact, you cannot pursue a romance until after you have finished that particular LI's loyalty quest.  And while this fact helped a bit in the friendship/romance department (getting to know your character), it is ultimately a mission--and a mandatory one at that to increase survival rate for the Suicide Mission.  It is also rushed as it happens in one short-lived quest, which is not nearly as an efficient way to 'bond' or build a friendship as demonstrated in ME1 with its constant (and different) conversations after a mission.  In ME1, you talked with your subordinates because you wanted to, not because it was a part of a mission or because you had to.

3)  Complexity
By complexity, I mean that you could have a 'bad' or unfaithful relationship in ME1.  You could romance both Kaidan/Ashley and Liara at the same time and be confronted about it, first subtlely, then obviously (with both in the same room).  In ME2, you must end one relationship before initiating another.

And just to add:  'Locker moment' in ME1, which was a scene in which Shepard and the respective LI shared an intimate, yet non-sexual moment some time before the final mission (and actual sex scene).

I think BW should put you in charge of the romances

[Blackveldt]

Lol.  As sharp as I can be all caffeinated in the evening.  But, um, thanks for embarrassing me, Mom.