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[Octorox]

cutthecameras wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

But that's what I'm saying.For many people on here who are straight and comfortable with having the dialog in , but choosing not to chose it.Many others don't want to remotely encounter it , which is ok not everyone should have to view those options.

I think its better like my past-page post.While importing or creating a new shepard you have a same sex enable/disable feature.Then the straight players like myself would not have to worry about any same sex option appearing because it would be disabled.

If gay gamers have to "view" straight options then straight gamers can "view" gay options. Seeing a flirtatious dialogue option on the conversation wheel with a character you didn't expect shouldn't make you want to vomit. Just don't pick it. You will only encounter it if you choose to is the point. Plus, we have talked about using colored font, to indicate that picking a certain choice will likely begin a romance subplot with a character.

Agree 100% on this. I stick to the idea that I don't think outside triggers should affect how MEs story unfolds, just Shepard's actions and decisions.

[MPSai]

danman2424 wrote...

BrianWilly wrote...

It's not confusing. It's just flat-out inaccurate. Shepard's gender, race, appearance, background, skillset, morality, likes and dislikes, spirituality, and choice between more than ten romances in the two games are all customizable by the player. It's very clearly not a third-person narrative in that sense.

That's fine, but his fetishes and/or preferences in the bedroom are not.

So homosexuality is a "fetish" now?

It still remains to be asked though, what's the point of having the option of a gay female Shepard but not a gay male Shepard?

[didymos1120]

danman2424 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Octorox wrote...
No, but Bioware's games have morality built in. i.e. you can be horrible person if you want. Some people might be angry that their fictional homophobic Shepards banged a bisexual character and they can't do anything about it.

I'm sorry, but that is an utterly absurd argument.  They can reload their damn save or start the hell over and cope with it by being a jerk to that darn, sneaky bisexual.

You're a very angry person and exactly the type of person I'm talking about when i speak about people feeling entitled to gay sex in Mass Effect.

That's nice.  Final time: you won't provoke me.  It's pointless to respond to me.  Now go talk to someone else.  I'm just not interested in you in that way. Sorry.

[BrianWilly]

danman2424 wrote...

That's fine, but his fetishes and/or preferences in the bedroom are not.

If you are a female Shepard, your preferences in the bedroom for the same sex can most definitely be customized.  People keep forgetting that.  Why is it the case for the female and not for the male?  That is what makes Muzyka's comments so illogical.

danman2424 wrote...

Also, most of the choices you make still lead you down the same path. Most of the choices only serve to help with the illusion that you are shaping the world and deciding what your character is, and ultimately, the lack of broad choice allows the game to take a more cinematic approach than other Bioware games have been capable of.  You really aren't shaping as much as you think you are.

Right, but you do shape your romances.  There is a very broad range of choices here as it pertains to romances.  That is where the supposed "third-person narrative" stops right in its heels.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 26 février 2010 - 06:30 .

[Octorox]

didymos1120 wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Octorox wrote...
No, but Bioware's games have morality built in. i.e. you can be horrible person if you want. Some people might be angry that their fictional homophobic Shepards banged a bisexual character and they can't do anything about it.

I'm sorry, but that is an utterly absurd argument.  They can reload their damn save or start the hell over and cope with it by being a jerk to that darn, sneaky bisexual.

You're a very angry person and exactly the type of person I'm talking about when i speak about people feeling entitled to gay sex in Mass Effect.

That's nice.  Final time: you won't provoke me.  It's pointless to respond to me.  Now go talk to someone else.  I'm just not interested in you in that way. Sorry.

Yes, danman that was a bit out of line. You really need more of an argument than "why should they?" and to call other forumgoers "angry people" for expressing their opinions is a bit absurd...

[asaiasai]

I agree with the OP and i support relationships for the PC with any NPC regardless of sex. It should not matter to anyone how an individual wants to play thier character, this whole discussion to me is like trying to debate a character build. One infiltrator build versus another infiltrator build in a game where neither builds will be pitted against each other, is somewhat specious, it should have been in from the beginning. The option for whatever romance the player wants to engage in should have been included from ME just like it was in DAO.



I think the simplest way to resovle this issue is to open up the romances to any NPC but the player MUST build the character to make it possible. Let me explain by example.



In both games we have stats called persuasion/intimidation that influences the NPC's attitudes towards the PC. If a male shep wanted to engage in a relationship with Garrus or Jacob they would need to build a higher persuasion character at the detriment of another stat like weapon accuracy. The player would have to make a consious decision to build for a specific romance where it would take less persuasion/intimidation for the same PC to romance Jack or Tali, as the relationship is more "traditional".



Now i also think that taking my idea above and adding to it a specific dialog option to initate a romance with any NPC, something along the lines of "Express Romantic Interest". The player would HAVE to select that option while in a conversation with the character of thier choice, they would also need sufficent persuasion/intimidation before the dialog option would even present itself.



I know what some folks are thinking why is there a penalty for this type of option? Look at it more of a way to compromise. I am a hetero male who drives nothing but femsheps, I am willing to trade a few stat points to engage in a F/F romance of my choice, it really is more of a matter of how you look at it, the folks for who this would not be an option will use thier stat points elsewhere. In the end seriously does 10% less accuracy and a 2 sec longer cool down in order to build enough persuasion points to engage in the romance partner of your choice really matter? This seems to be a way to provide the options with out really having to call any more attention to them.



Just a thought



Asai

[tmelange]

Octorox wrote...

tmelange wrote...

I don't understand why the retconning of Tali and Garrus is okay, but in any other instance, it's not okay. In my ME1 playthroughs, I never got one inkling that Tali was romantically interested in my Shep. There was no flirting, shy stammering, half smiles of wonder, nothing. There was also no indication that Tali would engage in an extra-species romance (Quarians seem very insular), or would think a human attractive, or anything, really. She basically stayed in the engine room, and I had four or five convos with her about the migrant fleet. In fact, Bioware themselves said that she was designed as a younger character, and not as a love interest. Likewise in most respects with Garrus.

Yet, now, it's perfectly okay that we are thrust into a romance where everything that was taken for granted in ME1 is re-defined. Things that apparently (who knew!) were unspecified in ME1 are elaborated upon in ME2 and turned into a story that presupposes a backstory that somehow happened off screen. But it is not viable for the same thing to happen in regards to Kaiden and male Shep or Tali and female Shep. Now, all of a sudden everything is set in stone, and if a player hopes to explore something outside of current in-game options a whole new character should be provided.

Strange.

I wouldn't mind if they retconned it for all players, as part of the ME universe, and the player had some way of responding to it (for Male Sheps either I love you anyway or I'm a hypocritial meanie, for female Sheps either hell yeah! or i don't roll that way)

I don't even mind that they retconned it, per se. I actually believe that there is more to any character than can be expressed on the canvass of one game or book or whatever. It's valid to me to have aspects of a person's profile come into play at later times, depending on circumstances. After all, you never really know anyone, and even those closest to you can surprise you with revelations, actions that you would swear are out of character, and 180 degree changes in perspective and behavior that overtake a person because of traumatic experiences. If a person can imagine that Tali had a crush on Shep from day 1, or that while Shep thought of Tali as a little sister under his command in ME1, when he saw her again and it felt like yesterday to him but it had been two years for her, that she had changed enough for him to fall for her, then I can imagine that my Shep had the hots for Kaidan and simply didn't have the time (or thought it appropriate while he was under his command) to act on it -- but when he sees him again under different circumstances...lol

[FataliTensei]

didymos1120 wrote...

tmelange wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

tmelange wrote...
Asari's don't conform to the male/female dichotomy.

True enough.  They all look just like women.  In many, if not most, instances, ones attractive to the majority of straight human males.   I won't speak for the gay human females, but I imagine many find a lot to like there.

I think of asari as women, myself. I think it's clear they are intended to express the female titilation factor in the game. None of them are running around in construction boots and coveralls. I always shake my head when BW tries to gender neuter them when convenient, when asari as constructs exploit every female characteristic and trope in existence.

OK. Phew. You had me worried there.  It bugs me to no end when people go off into those logic contortions trying to prove Asari can't possibly be girls.  It downright mystifies me when BioWare does it, 'cause I damn well know they know that's nonsense.

It doesn't make sense when bioware does it, they wrote the codex, the codex says they're all female

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

(cutthecameras , If gay gamers have to "view" straight options then straight gamers can "view" gay options. Seeing a flirtatious dialogue option on the conversation wheel with a character you didn't expect shouldn't make you want to vomit. Just don't pick it. You will only encounter it if you choose to is the point. Plus, we have talked about using colored font, to indicate that picking a certain choice will likely begin a romance subplot with a character.)



Ok to clarify myself.I meant enable/disable at the importing or creating a shepard.Not every time there's a conversation with a crew mate.



Yes , if people of same sex can read through the straight dialog , then straight group should be able to read the gay dialog as well.But that's a discussion not a solution.



What I'm suggesting is a way to satisfy both.And an enable/disable feature would give everybody in both groups 50/50.

[Yeled]

Why do people accuse supporters of same sex content as feeling "entitled" to that content? And why do they not see that its possible to accuse those who are specifically against it as feeling "entitled" to a game without it.



Supporters are vocal in support of something they would like to see implimented. That isn't entitlement. That's interest.

[Octorox]

asaiasai wrote...

I agree with the OP and i support relationships for the PC with any NPC regardless of sex. It should not matter to anyone how an individual wants to play thier character, this whole discussion to me is like trying to debate a character build. One infiltrator build versus another infiltrator build in a game where neither builds will be pitted against each other, is somewhat specious, it should have been in from the beginning. The option for whatever romance the player wants to engage in should have been included from ME just like it was in DAO.

I think the simplest way to resovle this issue is to open up the romances to any NPC but the player MUST build the character to make it possible. Let me explain by example.

In both games we have stats called persuasion/intimidation that influences the NPC's attitudes towards the PC. If a male shep wanted to engage in a relationship with Garrus or Jacob they would need to build a higher persuasion character at the detriment of another stat like weapon accuracy. The player would have to make a consious decision to build for a specific romance where it would take less persuasion/intimidation for the same PC to romance Jack or Tali, as the relationship is more "traditional".

Now i also think that taking my idea above and adding to it a specific dialog option to initate a romance with any NPC, something along the lines of "Express Romantic Interest". The player would HAVE to select that option while in a conversation with the character of thier choice, they would also need sufficent persuasion/intimidation before the dialog option would even present itself.

I know what some folks are thinking why is there a penalty for this type of option? Look at it more of a way to compromise. I am a hetero male who drives nothing but femsheps, I am willing to trade a few stat points to engage in a F/F romance of my choice, it really is more of a matter of how you look at it, the folks for who this would not be an option will use thier stat points elsewhere. In the end seriously does 10% less accuracy and a 2 sec longer cool down in order to build enough persuasion points to engage in the romance partner of your choice really matter? This seems to be a way to provide the options with out really having to call any more attention to them.

Just a thought

Asai

Now this is exactly what I'm against. Everyone is the galaxy shouldn't be straight but they shouldn't all be bi either. Being able to romance ANY character regardless of their sexual orientation would just ruin the idea of romance in Mass Effect for me.

[Ryzaki]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

(cutthecameras , If gay gamers have to "view" straight options then straight gamers can "view" gay options. Seeing a flirtatious dialogue option on the conversation wheel with a character you didn't expect shouldn't make you want to vomit. Just don't pick it. You will only encounter it if you choose to is the point. Plus, we have talked about using colored font, to indicate that picking a certain choice will likely begin a romance subplot with a character.)

Ok to clarify myself.I meant enable/disable at the importing or creating a shepard.Not every time there's a conversation with a crew mate.

Yes , if people of same sex can read through the straight dialog , then straight group should be able to read the gay dialog as well.But that's a discussion not a solution.

What I'm suggesting is a way to satisfy both.And an enable/disable feature would give everybody in both groups 50/50.

This disable feature includes disabling straight romances?

[SorenTrigg]

danman2424 wrote...

BrianWilly wrote...

It's not confusing. It's just flat-out inaccurate. Shepard's gender, race, appearance, background, skillset, morality, likes and dislikes, spirituality, and choice between more than ten romances in the two games are all customizable by the player. It's very clearly not a third-person narrative in that sense.

That's fine, but his fetishes and/or preferences in the bedroom are not.

Sure they are. Who you choose to romance and bed (including aliens, which I would deem a fetish.) surely counts as bedroom preferences.

[danman2424]

Octorox wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Octorox wrote...
No, but Bioware's games have morality built in. i.e. you can be horrible person if you want. Some people might be angry that their fictional homophobic Shepards banged a bisexual character and they can't do anything about it.

I'm sorry, but that is an utterly absurd argument.  They can reload their damn save or start the hell over and cope with it by being a jerk to that darn, sneaky bisexual.

You're a very angry person and exactly the type of person I'm talking about when i speak about people feeling entitled to gay sex in Mass Effect.

That's nice.  Final time: you won't provoke me.  It's pointless to respond to me.  Now go talk to someone else.  I'm just not interested in you in that way. Sorry.

Yes, danman that was a bit out of line. You really need more of an argument than "why should they?" and to call other forumgoers "angry people" for expressing their opinions is a bit absurd...

He expresses his opinions in the most volatile, insulting way possible.

[FKA_Servo]

I really don't agree with the disable/enable option.

If I don't want to romance someone in game, I'll shoot it down. I did it with Miranda and Jack, I've done it with Jacob and Thane.

Colored font is the best option. That, or always putting the romance initiator in its own section - like, upper left hand of the dialog wheel.



Also, just to reiterate - it's not entitlement. This is already in the game. Femshep can identify and play as a lesbian. Mshep can't be gay. That's a discrepancy that makes no sense.

[jlb524]

Yeled wrote...

Why do people accuse supporters of same sex content as feeling "entitled" to that content? And why do they not see that its possible to accuse those who are specifically against it as feeling "entitled" to a game without it.

Supporters are vocal in support of something they would like to see implimented. That isn't entitlement. That's interest.

That's true.  People start threads asking for specific DLC all the time (there's a few on the front page right now).  These people certainly don't feel 'entitled' to getting it....they're just showing an interest in it.

[danman2424]

didymos1120 wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Octorox wrote...
No, but Bioware's games have morality built in. i.e. you can be horrible person if you want. Some people might be angry that their fictional homophobic Shepards banged a bisexual character and they can't do anything about it.

I'm sorry, but that is an utterly absurd argument.  They can reload their damn save or start the hell over and cope with it by being a jerk to that darn, sneaky bisexual.

You're a very angry person and exactly the type of person I'm talking about when i speak about people feeling entitled to gay sex in Mass Effect.

That's nice.  Final time: you won't provoke me.  It's pointless to respond to me.  Now go talk to someone else.  I'm just not interested in you in that way. Sorry.

I don't have to. You appear to be allowing yourself to be provoked by every other person in the thread that disagrees with your stance.

[cutthecameras]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

(cutthecameras , If gay gamers have to "view" straight options then straight gamers can "view" gay options. Seeing a flirtatious dialogue option on the conversation wheel with a character you didn't expect shouldn't make you want to vomit. Just don't pick it. You will only encounter it if you choose to is the point. Plus, we have talked about using colored font, to indicate that picking a certain choice will likely begin a romance subplot with a character.)

Ok to clarify myself.I meant enable/disable at the importing or creating a shepard.Not every time there's a conversation with a crew mate.

Yes , if people of same sex can read through the straight dialog , then straight group should be able to read the gay dialog as well.But that's a discussion not a solution.

What I'm suggesting is a way to satisfy both.And an enable/disable feature would give everybody in both groups 50/50.

So I can turn straightness Off? That would be certainly be interesting.

As I said before, if a LI turns you off then don't pursue something with them. Same thing I did with, oh, every LI in Mass Effect 2. None of them appealed to me so I didn't pursue them. We are open to discussion on how to best implement something like this in part 3 but frankly I think Bioware may do it in a way that will satisfy every gamer equally regardless. Give them some credit, look back at how they've handled this in the past.

[Octorox]

tmelange wrote...

Octorox wrote...

tmelange wrote...

I don't understand why the retconning of Tali and Garrus is okay, but in any other instance, it's not okay. In my ME1 playthroughs, I never got one inkling that Tali was romantically interested in my Shep. There was no flirting, shy stammering, half smiles of wonder, nothing. There was also no indication that Tali would engage in an extra-species romance (Quarians seem very insular), or would think a human attractive, or anything, really. She basically stayed in the engine room, and I had four or five convos with her about the migrant fleet. In fact, Bioware themselves said that she was designed as a younger character, and not as a love interest. Likewise in most respects with Garrus.

Yet, now, it's perfectly okay that we are thrust into a romance where everything that was taken for granted in ME1 is re-defined. Things that apparently (who knew!) were unspecified in ME1 are elaborated upon in ME2 and turned into a story that presupposes a backstory that somehow happened off screen. But it is not viable for the same thing to happen in regards to Kaiden and male Shep or Tali and female Shep. Now, all of a sudden everything is set in stone, and if a player hopes to explore something outside of current in-game options a whole new character should be provided.

Strange.

I wouldn't mind if they retconned it for all players, as part of the ME universe, and the player had some way of responding to it (for Male Sheps either I love you anyway or I'm a hypocritial meanie, for female Sheps either hell yeah! or i don't roll that way)

I don't even mind that they retconned it, per se. I actually believe that there is more to any character than can be expressed on the canvass of one game or book or whatever. It's valid to me to have aspects of a person's profile come into play at later times, depending on circumstances. After all, you never really know anyone, and even those closest to you can surprise you with revelations, actions that you would swear are out of character, and 180 degree changes in perspective and behavior that overtake a person because of traumatic experiences. If a person can imagine that Tali had a crush on Shep from day 1, or that while Shep thought of Tali as a little sister under his command in ME1, when he saw her again and it felt like yesterday to him but it had been two years for her, that she had changed enough for him to fall for her, then I can imagine that my Shep had the hots for Kaidan and simply didn't have the time (or thought it appropriate while he was under his command) to act on it -- but when he sees him again under different circumstances...lol

Yeah that makes sense. I just don't like the idea of a simple DLC unlock. It needs to be built into the story

[jlb524]

Octorox wrote...

Now this is exactly what I'm against. Everyone is the galaxy shouldn't be straight but they shouldn't all be bi either. Being able to romance ANY character regardless of their sexual orientation would just ruin the idea of romance in Mass Effect for me.

Just curious, why would this ruin all the ME romances for you?

[danman2424]

Yeled wrote...

Why do people accuse supporters of same sex content as feeling "entitled" to that content? And why do they not see that its possible to accuse those who are specifically against it as feeling "entitled" to a game without it.

Supporters are vocal in support of something they would like to see implimented. That isn't entitlement. That's interest.

Because some of you are not just asking for it. Some of you downright see it as a slap in the face from Bioware for not catering to your desires.

[Collider]

Tali and Garrus were not retconned. People don't immediately need to be attracted to each other, obvious but some people don't seem to acknowledge this in what they type. In Tali's case, Tali was shy around Shepard and didn't think he would return affections. I don't know about Garrus, but I'm sure Garrus fangirls would take offense if you told them that Garrus was retconned for female Shepard.

[Octorox]

jlb524 wrote...

Octorox wrote...

Now this is exactly what I'm against. Everyone is the galaxy shouldn't be straight but they shouldn't all be bi either. Being able to romance ANY character regardless of their sexual orientation would just ruin the idea of romance in Mass Effect for me.

Just curious, why would this ruin all the ME romances for you?

It would ruin the illusion of the ME universe for me. I want to get the idea that a specific character is into me because they are into me, not just because I want them. Again, I don't want Mass Effect to be like the Sims, the other characters should feel like they exist independently of mine and have their own preferences and attractions.

[tmelange]

TommyServo wrote...

tmelange wrote...

I think of asari as women, myself. I think it's clear they are intended to express the female titilation factor in the game. None of them are running around in construction boots and coveralls. I always shake my head when BW tries to gender neuter them when convenient, when asari as constructs exploit every female characteristic and trope in existence.

Actually, if anyone is willing to fire up their game, they can peek in the codex and see that all asari are sexually female.

Monogendered does not mean "no gender" - it means "one gender."  They are a race of women.

Women.  Asari are women.

This isn't about their orientation.  This is their biological sex.

Edit:  I'm not being hostile with you, tmelange.   We are in agreement - I just hate that argument and I rage whenever it comes up.

I agree. Asari are women who have a special reproductive situation. Everything in-game supports this. I'm not sure why some of the devs try to ****foot around this issue. I think it probably has to do with them initially trying to avoid the "Why f/f and no m/m?" argument. They dug themselves into a hole that isn't supported by the game codex or dialogue.

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

(Ryzaki , This disable feature includes disabling straight romances?)



Yes , absolutely (if I could design it).If same sex folks want nothing but same sex options , then by all means disable straight dialog/relationships. If your in the straight group , then you disable same-sex dialog/relationships.I think if it was designed like this both groups win here.