7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Mimaiselphenai]

Blackveldt wrote...


One thing to watch out for:  causation fallacy (correlation does not imply causation).  But now we're getting into a more philosophical debate than anything.  Mimaiselphenai states that "humans are inherently evil," which is based on the theory of Original Sin--we are all born with sin; it is a theological (Christian) outlook.


Btw, how the heck do we keep getting off-topic?

You sure like the word "fallacy."

But yeah, the more off topic we get, the higher than chance the thread will get locked.

[brzozowski4]

Collider wrote...

brzozowski4 wrote...

Collider wrote...

brzozowski4 wrote...

I am still confused as to why the majority of the community sees homosexuals as lacking the ability to reproduce. I don't think it has ever been set in stone that any person must bear children with his or her lover (or whatever you want to call it). Creating offspring involves a fertile man's sperm and a fertile woman's egg, not a fertile heterosexual man's sperm and a fertile heterosexual woman's egg. Just because it has always been tradition that people in a relationship reproduce together, does not limit reproduction to that situation.

The fact that homosexual men are well, homosexual. Not attracted to females. And probably would not have sex with females if they can get help it. Although I share some of your sentiment.

Since when is sex absolutely necessary to reproduce?  The physical act is not needed, just the joining of a sperm and an egg.

In many countries, artificial insemination is both rare and too costly. For most of human history we had nothing of the sort.

I was aiming a little towards the future without really letting you know that haha.  In many countries now, homosexuality is being dissolved as an obstacle to reproduction.

[FataliTensei]

Gemini1179 wrote...

I support additional same sex romance content options in the ME universe.

Thank you for your support

[Ryzaki]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Blackveldt wrote...
Btw, how the heck do we keep getting off-topic?

You need to ask Ryzaki about that.

Hey! Its not my fault! *best Alistiar whiny puppy voice*


Anyways. I tried to get us back on topic with MShep x Joker goodness *mumble mumble*

I'm probably not going to get my Kaidan.

MShep will never have the pleasure of Kaidan serving underneath him. *bawls*

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2010 - 03:19 .

[NickBurnside]

I do not support same sex romance in ME3

Hopefully Im not attacked for that

I am heavily opposed to a bi-sexual character in ME3

[Gemini1179]

NickBurnside wrote...

I do not support same sex romance in ME3
Hopefully Im not attacked for that
I am heavily opposed to a bi-sexual character in ME3

No need to attack you. Your position is simply confusing. Some might call it ignorant- that is not an insult but rather a satement that you are simply "without facts".

It's like saying you don't support a baseball team in your town when you never watch baseball anyway and aren't ever forced to go to a game.

[DaeJi]

NickBurnside wrote...

I do not support same sex romance in ME3
Hopefully Im not attacked for that
I am heavily opposed to a bi-sexual character in ME3

I'm not going to attack you, but I do wish to know your reasonings. Not to attack those, but to understand better where some of the opposition comes from.

[NickBurnside]

Well I just dont see the point

ITs kinda like in movies where they just put content in that pushes the limits or whatever

If its going to happen Id rather they just put a gay character in because I feel bi-sexuality (if thats how youd say it) is much more of just a physical pleasure seeking lifestyle, which is not something that would help to further mankind



Im also putting my spiritual feelings about homosexuality aside here because opinions coming from that source seem to always end in conflict



also I really mean no disrespect to anyone coming from that background or are in favor of this as an addition in ME3

[Gemini1179]

NickBurnside wrote...

Well I just dont see the point
ITs kinda like in movies where they just put content in that pushes the limits or whatever
If its going to happen Id rather they just put a gay character in because I feel bi-sexuality (if thats how youd say it) is much more of just a physical pleasure seeking lifestyle, which is not something that would help to further mankind

Im also putting my spiritual feelings about homosexuality aside here because opinions coming from that source seem to always end in conflict

also I really mean no disrespect to anyone coming from that background or are in favor of this as an addition in ME3

I don't think people are simply asking for a bi-sexual character. That's more a "kill 2 birds with one stone" solution.

The issue for a lot of people stems from the claim that this is a ROLE PLAYING GAME, and for some, their character is gay, and yet they do not have the option to explore that while people playing has heterosexual characters and even to a lesser extent as a lesbian character can.

It is simply a fairness issue, IMO. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. That's the beauty of OPTIONS- you don't have to partake if you don't wish to.

[Images]

Hmmm the only thing I think I can vaguely agree with NickBurnside on is that perhaps bisexual ain't the way to go...but for completely different reasons.



I just feel that maybe we should throw in a completely gay character rather than try to open the existing team (save Jack who's been there, done that and obviously Liara) to bisexuality. Ya know, someone who doesn't play both teams, is just plain old vanilla gay.

[NickBurnside]

well just my thoughts

[Gemini1179]

Images wrote...

Hmmm the only thing I think I can vaguely agree with NickBurnside on is that perhaps bisexual ain't the way to go...but for completely different reasons.

I just feel that maybe we should throw in a completely gay character rather than try to open the existing team (save Jack who's been there, done that and obviously Liara) to bisexuality. Ya know, someone who doesn't play both teams, is just plain old vanilla gay.

I completely agree. Hence why I think retconning characters to be bi is a bit of a weak solution. Jack would sort of make sense in a way, but none of the others would fit as bi IMO. I know the Tali/Thane fans will take exception, but it is simply my opinion and I control nothing with the development of this game so I take what is given.

[Ryzaki]

Hm....poor Shepard. He's the only gay guy in the galaxy. *tuts*

Though I don't understand how is it retconning? Retconning is going against established canon. None of those characters are necessarily completely straight.

Making Joker go from his wise cracking self to a sterotypical flamer would be retconning but there are plenty of ways to make him open to a relationship with MShep that don't completely destroy his character.

Not to mention Kaidan and DudeShep have so much Ho Yay between them it might as well be an option. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2010 - 03:59 .

[Blackveldt]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Blackveldt wrote...


One thing to watch out for:  causation fallacy (correlation does not imply causation).  But now we're getting into a more philosophical debate than anything.  Mimaiselphenai states that "humans are inherently evil," which is based on the theory of Original Sin--we are all born with sin; it is a theological (Christian) outlook.


Btw, how the heck do we keep getting off-topic?

You sure like the word "fallacy."

But yeah, the more off topic we get, the higher than chance the thread will get locked.

I really, really do

But really because it's extremely significant when debating / presenting logical arguments and/or conclusions.  And far too many people either knowingly or unknowingly utlize them, rendering their arguments invalid.

NickBurnside wrote...
...I feel bi-sexuality (if thats how youd say it)
is much more of just a physical pleasure seeking lifestyle, which is not
something that would help to further mankind

That is one of bisexuality's greatest misconceptions; it is much more complex than you would think.  What's rather amusing, however, is that bisexuality is one of the areas that I have spent a lot of time researching.  If you seek to educate yourself on the matter, I can actually send you a pretty exhaustive paper I'd written on it back in undergrad.  Or I could list some APA sources that you could peruse at your leisure.

Educated opinions are always better than baseless ones.

Im also putting my
spiritual feelings about homosexuality aside here because opinions
coming from that source seem to always end in conflict

I do this all of the time.  It's been an area of inner conflict, I must admit, since I fully support same-sex romances and do not believe anything is wrong with it--at all.  Yet, my Bible tells me it is a sin.  Let's just say I've gotten rather proficient at compartmentalization.

...also I
really mean no disrespect to anyone coming from that background or are
in favor of this as an addition in ME3

I genuinely appreciate this sentiment.

[FataliTensei]

Images wrote...

Hmmm the only thing I think I can vaguely agree with NickBurnside on is that perhaps bisexual ain't the way to go...but for completely different reasons.

I just feel that maybe we should throw in a completely gay character rather than try to open the existing team (save Jack who's been there, done that and obviously Liara) to bisexuality. Ya know, someone who doesn't play both teams, is just plain old vanilla gay.

It'd be nice

[Mimaiselphenai]

NickBurnside wrote...

Well I just dont see the point
ITs kinda like in movies where they just put content in that pushes the limits or whatever
If its going to happen Id rather they just put a gay character in because I feel bi-sexuality (if thats how youd say it) is much more of just a physical pleasure seeking lifestyle, which is not something that would help to further mankind

Im also putting my spiritual feelings about homosexuality aside here because opinions coming from that source seem to always end in conflict

also I really mean no disrespect to anyone coming from that background or are in favor of this as an addition in ME3

Being bisexual is as much a lifestyle as being heterosexual. If someone is a "pleasure seeker," then they're a hedonist, regardless of their sexual orientation. Your physical attractions have nothing to do with how sexually active you are.

[SirGladiator]

There's really no reason for any character to be 'bi' or 'gay' or 'straight', obviously they can be, but it isn't necessary. If Liara wasn't part of an all-female race that is bisexual by nature, you wouldn't know that she was bi. The only thing that suggests that most of the characters people think of as 'straight' are actually straight, is because they're only available to one Shep or another, but that logic doesn't work either as Jack is openly bisexual but she is only available to MaleShep. Unless its really necessary there's no sense in ever defining a character sexually, that should be up to the player. For example, if you want to think of Ashley as straight thats fine, you can romance her as MaleShep and choose not to as FemShep, but if I play as FemShep Id like the choice to do so (and thanks to the mod I now have that ability, which is super fun) . There is no reason why someone should be 'forced' to think of any character as straight or not straight (other than Asari like Liara of course, since all Asari are bisexual, thats part of the game and not just about her personally) .



I think the Mass Effect series has done a good job of demonstrating how much more fun a game is when the player has the choice rather than having something forced on them. Sadly they don't follow their own model when it comes to the romances, they take choices away for absolutely no reason, and thats what needs to change. If in your playthrough Tali is totally straight then good for you, but in mine she isn't, and thats good for me. What would be even better would be if I could do ALL of the romance and not just part of it . Thats what we want, just the option, don't make any characters bi, or not bi, leave that decision to us, we'll all have fun when we all can make the choices we want with the characters we like.

[NickBurnside]

I think as a compromise they could allow you to have a gay shep
but also they should allow you to have a spiritual shep
like beyond what they did in ME1
I would be down with that

Modifié par NickBurnside, 24 mars 2010 - 04:43 .

[Mimaiselphenai]

NickBurnside wrote...

I think as a compromise they could allow you to have a gay shep
but also they should allow you to have a spiritual shep
like beyond what they did in ME1
I would be down with that

Spiritual? As in?

[NickBurnside]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

NickBurnside wrote...

I think as a compromise they could allow you to have a gay shep
but also they should allow you to have a spiritual shep
like beyond what they did in ME1
I would be down with that

Spiritual? As in?

as in a faith in a higher being
having that higher being be the thing that gives shep motivation and hope in the hard times
I mean I don't think he should start praying
but have it be the structure of shepards drive to save the galaxy
(if so you choose it to be)

[Mimaiselphenai]

NickBurnside wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

NickBurnside wrote...

I think as a compromise they could allow you to have a gay shep
but also they should allow you to have a spiritual shep
like beyond what they did in ME1
I would be down with that

Spiritual? As in?

as in a faith in a higher being
having that higher being be the thing that gives shep motivation and hope in the hard times
I mean I don't think he should start praying
but have it be the structure of shepards drive to save the galaxy
(if so you choose it to be)

Well, you can talk to Ashley about her belief in God, and agree with her that there is one.

Though, I'd think saving every living thing in the galaxy is enough drive to save every living thing in the galaxy.

[Collider]

SirGladiator wrote...

There's really no reason for any character to be 'bi' or 'gay' or 'straight', obviously they can be, but it isn't necessary. If Liara wasn't part of an all-female race that is bisexual by nature, you wouldn't know that she was bi. The only thing that suggests that most of the characters people think of as 'straight' are actually straight, is because they're only available to one Shep or another, but that logic doesn't work either as Jack is openly bisexual but she is only available to MaleShep. Unless its really necessary there's no sense in ever defining a character sexually, that should be up to the player. For example, if you want to think of Ashley as straight thats fine, you can romance her as MaleShep and choose not to as FemShep, but if I play as FemShep Id like the choice to do so (and thanks to the mod I now have that ability, which is super fun) . There is no reason why someone should be 'forced' to think of any character as straight or not straight (other than Asari like Liara of course, since all Asari are bisexual, thats part of the game and not just about her personally) .

I think the Mass Effect series has done a good job of demonstrating how much more fun a game is when the player has the choice rather than having something forced on them. Sadly they don't follow their own model when it comes to the romances, they take choices away for absolutely no reason, and thats what needs to change. If in your playthrough Tali is totally straight then good for you, but in mine she isn't, and thats good for me. What would be even better would be if I could do ALL of the romance and not just part of it . Thats what we want, just the option, don't make any characters bi, or not bi, leave that decision to us, we'll all have fun when we all can make the choices we want with the characters we like.

Have the characters be consistent. There is no "straight" in one playthrough or "gay" in another playthrough. If they're romanceable by both genders, they are bisexual. We don't know that Jack is bisexual, actually some people interpret "girl's club" as saying she's not into girls. There's no reason for Jack to be bisexual yet reject femshep. Let's have character diversity, please, not everyone being bisexual. There is always the option of playing as the gender that the character is romanceable by. Just do that!

[NickBurnside]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

NickBurnside wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

NickBurnside wrote...

I think as a compromise they could allow you to have a gay shep
but also they should allow you to have a spiritual shep
like beyond what they did in ME1
I would be down with that

Spiritual? As in?

as in a faith in a higher being
having that higher being be the thing that gives shep motivation and hope in the hard times
I mean I don't think he should start praying
but have it be the structure of shepards drive to save the galaxy
(if so you choose it to be)

Well, you can talk to Ashley about her belief in God, and agree with her that there is one.

Though, I'd think saving every living thing in the galaxy is enough drive to save every living thing in the galaxy.

well Im not saying it isnt
and im not saying your shep has to have spiritual motivation
but Id like to have it as a choice
and maybe more of his reasoning to join the allience comes from his spirtual background which makes him want to make a difference
and Im not saying people who dont have god as motivation dont want to do good things
its just if the whole gay shep idea is about being able to choose I think having shep with a strong faith should be as well