7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Yeled wrote...

Why do people accuse supporters of same sex content as feeling "entitled" to that content? And why do they not see that its possible to accuse those who are specifically against it as feeling "entitled" to a game without it.

Supporters are vocal in support of something they would like to see implimented. That isn't entitlement. That's interest.

People some people say that Bioware is being homophobic if they don't have homosexual romances in Mass Effect. Or they say that Bioware is being insensitive or insulting to homosexuals and bisexuals. That gives the impression that they feel they are entitled.

[Ryzaki]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

(Ryzaki , This disable feature includes disabling straight romances?)

Yes , absolutely (if I could design it).If same sex folks want nothing but same sex options , then by all means disable straight dialog/relationships. If your in the straight group , then you disable same-sex dialog/relationships.I think if it was designed like this both groups win here.

WHOOT! I would totally be for that!


No more having to cringe as my M!Shep is hit on by females! <3

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

Tali and Garrus were not retconned. People don't immediately need to be attracted to each other, obvious but some people don't seem to acknowledge this in what they type. In Tali's case, Tali was shy around Shepard and didn't think he would return affections.

Well, they can just say Tali was 'extra' shy around Female Shepard because Tali knows about human prejudices against homosexual behavior and didn't want to offend the Commander by expressing interest in her.

The writers can make any of these work if they want to.

Modifié par jlb524, 26 février 2010 - 06:41 .

[cutthecameras]

danman2424 wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Why do people accuse supporters of same sex content as feeling "entitled" to that content? And why do they not see that its possible to accuse those who are specifically against it as feeling "entitled" to a game without it.

Supporters are vocal in support of something they would like to see implimented. That isn't entitlement. That's interest.

Because some of you are not just asking for it. Some of you downright see it as a slap in the face from Bioware for not catering to your desires.

I don't see Bioware as directly responsible for how things turned out as far as same-sex romance in the Mass Effect universe. There really has not been a clear reason as to why this content was not provided given the fact that it was obviously toyed with. This frustrates some of us even more so.

As I said, all I feel Bioware owes us is a great game. But they are the leaders in same-sex inclusion in videogames and I don't think it unreasonable that their gay fans, which they have attracted, voice their opinions on how this matter should be implemented in the ME universe.

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
Well, they can just say Tali was 'extra' shy around Female Shepard because Tali knows about human prejudices against homosexual behavior and didn't want to offend the Commander by expressing interest in her.

I'm not saying don't have the option in ME3. I couldn't care less if Tali was romanceable by females in ME3. The distinction is that I would dislike it if they had DLC that effectively retconned Tali's character, for a very small audience of likely heterosexual male players. I'm sorry, but it is really hard to shake off negative feelings towards hetero guys who are just drooling over lesbians.

The writers can make any of these work if they want to.

I agree. If they so choose, make Kaidan, Thane, Ashley, whoever bisexual in ME3, just don't retcon.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 06:43 .

[Heavensrun]

Ryzaki wrote...

MPSai wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

That would be too much win. Actual stripping

How would that work? It's not even clear how people get in and out of that ridiculous armor.

I meant the Asari dancers.

They kind of just dance and not...strip. Even though they're in a strip bar. If there's anything that made me laugh at the game it was those strippers. Now that was comical.

"ooh hot strippers...only...they don't strip." 

Nobody ever said they were strippers.  They're frequently referred to as "dancers".  the world is full of clubs that have women in scant clothing dancing on platforms to titilate interested customers.  These women do not shed clothing, and thus, are not strippers, but simply dancers.

Sexy dancers.  (nods)

[jlb524]

Octorox wrote...

It would ruin the illusion of the ME universe for me. I want to get the idea that a specific character is into me because they are into me, not just because I want them. Again, I don't want Mass Effect to be like the Sims, the other characters should feel like they exist independently of mine and have their own preferences and attractions.

I agree, but I also wish is was harder for Shepard to turn Paragon characters Renegade and vice versa.  I don't like how Shepard can push people's morals in a completely opposite direction sometimes, but it happens often.

[Octorox]

Collider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Well, they can just say Tali was 'extra' shy around Female Shepard because Tali knows about human prejudices against homosexual behavior and didn't want to offend the Commander by expressing interest in her.

I'm not saying don't have the option in ME3. I couldn't care less if Tali was romanceable by females in ME3. The distinction is that I would dislike it if they had DLC that effectively retconned Tali's character, for a very small audience of likely heterosexual male players. I'm sure, but it is really hard to shake off negative feelings towards hetero guys who are drooling over lesbians.

The writers can make any of these work if they want to.

I agree. If they so choose, make Kaidan, Thane, Ashley, whoever bisexual in ME3, just don't retcon.

Agree 100% here. Add it in ME3 with sufficient story explanation, not as a simple DLC unlock

[SorenTrigg]

Collider, if you do not mind those characters being bisexual in 3, why are you so against them being so in 2?



What would the difference be?

Either way, they would be 'changed' from how they currently are.

[Octorox]

jlb524 wrote...

Octorox wrote...

It would ruin the illusion of the ME universe for me. I want to get the idea that a specific character is into me because they are into me, not just because I want them. Again, I don't want Mass Effect to be like the Sims, the other characters should feel like they exist independently of mine and have their own preferences and attractions.

I agree, but I also wish is was harder for Shepard to turn Paragon characters Renegade and vice versa.  I don't like how Shepard can push people's morals in a completely opposite direction sometimes, but it happens often.

As a near 100% Paragon, Iv'e never encountered that. I didn't even know squad members had Paragon/Renegade meters. Shepard's effects on other characters always seemed realistic to me or at least enough to suspend disbelief.

[tmelange]

Collider wrote...

Tali and Garrus were not retconned. People don't immediately need to be attracted to each other, obvious but some people don't seem to acknowledge this in what they type. In Tali's case, Tali was shy around Shepard and didn't think he would return affections. I don't know about Garrus, but I'm sure Garrus fangirls would take offense if you told them that Garrus was retconned for female Shepard.

LOL, you sound pretty sure of your Tali story. Sounds like it's in your head to me.

As far as what offense Garrus fangirls would take: just because there is a romance going on in someone's head doesn't mean I have to buy into it. There is absolutely no objective evidence of Garrus being sexually or romantically interested in Shep in my ME1 playthrough. My statement of this iis not intended to offend or appease any group of people. It's the experience I had playing the game, and my opinion, based on the fact of any dialogue or behavior in support of a contrary position. If someone had a different experience and came away with a different opinion and conclusion, that's cool.

ETA: And one thing about Tali -- Shep is waking from a coma. To him, it seems like he saw Tali, probably, just yesterday. Two years haven't passed for him. If you assume Shep is interested in Tali in ME2, you almost have to assume that he was interested in her in ME1, since so little time has passed for him in consciousness. I don't know about anyone else, but I suspect the average Shep was busy chasing Liara or Ashley, not thinking about kid Tali. His new feelings for her smell just like a retcon to me. But YMMV.

Modifié par tmelange, 26 février 2010 - 06:50 .

[Ryzaki]

Heavensrun wrote...

Nobody ever said they were strippers.  They're frequently referred to as "dancers".  the world is full of clubs that have women in scant clothing dancing on platforms to titilate interested customers.  These women do not shed clothing, and thus, are not strippers, but simply dancers.

Sexy dancers.  (nods)

All wearing the same outfit and have the same degree of zero nudity? Really? Dancers don't have differing amounts of clevage and/or thigh showing? Really?

This is mostly though a comment on how unrealistic it is. I still laugh no matter what they're supposed to be. Its pathetic and sad to me. (Doesn't help that the dancing made me LOL too.)

[FKA_Servo]

Collider wrote...

People some people say that Bioware is being homophobic if they don't have homosexual romances in Mass Effect. Or they say that Bioware is being insensitive or insulting to homosexuals and bisexuals. That gives the impression that they feel they are entitled.

I could be wrong, Collider, but I don't think anyone in our group is doing that.

We're arguing for its inclusion based on the fact that it was already implemented for female characters and partially implemented for male characters.  We're not necessarily asking for retcons either - that has been raised as an option, but it is one of many - along with new characters introduced in a substantial content pack with something to offer everyone.  The purpose of this thread is simply to try to find a good way to put it in!

I think it's safe to say that a lot of the people in this thread hold Bioware in very high regard.  We're just confused as to why it was left out, since it was clearly more than halfway done.  And they themselves have never commented on it.

Also, generally speaking - if anyone brings up the Muzyka blurb again, that's not a comment.  You're free to try to interpret it as such - perhaps you can catch something we've missed.  But provide reasoning.  Do not just point us to that quote. 

Modifié par TommyServo, 26 février 2010 - 06:51 .

[Octorox]

SorenTrigg wrote...

Collider, if you do not mind those characters being bisexual in 3, why are you so against them being so in 2?

What would the difference be?
Either way, they would be 'changed' from how they currently are.

Because they shouldn't "suddenly" want  female Shepard when they didn't a second ago. There has to be proper story development as to why they weren't interested in the first place.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

The distinction is that I would dislike it if they had DLC that effectively retconned Tali's character, for a very small audience of likely heterosexual male players. I'm sorry, but it is really hard to shake off negative feelings towards hetero guys who are just drooling over lesbians.

Heterosexual men enjoying lesbian content doesn't bother me.  It's no different than heterosexual men drooling over Miranda and her straight romance.

[mothbanquet]

Collider wrote...

People some people say that Bioware is being homophobic if they don't have homosexual romances in Mass Effect. Or they say that Bioware is being insensitive or insulting to homosexuals and bisexuals. That gives the impression that they feel they are entitled.

Collide, you are my friend and I respect you very much, but that sounds like the people who enter the Tali thread and say that just because some people build hideous Tali dolls then all Tali fans are creepy lunatics.

Plus, where your damn fic?!

[Collider]

[quote]tyddrwsau wrote...
From an audience point of view, you're right on.[/quote]
Which is most important. In reality, if we ever met aliens, I am willing to bet that they would be incredibly ugly, and there would be little in the way of conventional sexual opportunity with them anyways. You never know if there would even be male/female sexes for these aliens, either. BUT Mass Effect is science fiction. The alien races that are romanceable are pretty obviously male or female. Tali and Liara have feminine everywhere. Garrus and Thane have masculine everything. I'm not just referring to society's impressions of what is masculine and feminine, but physically, they mirror human dimorphism.

From a point of view that suggests fictional characters should relate with their fictional environment as though it's all there is, cross-species relationships should transcend those individuals' normal assumptions of attraction, gender behaviour, and so forth.[/quote]
Uh, no. Again. I don't think you understand. We already have an example of where the alien divide does not mean that we will automatically transcend over gender lines. As in, the players. Make Liara male, for example, and I'm simply not going to be sexually or romantically attracted. Call me shallow for that if you want to, but I warn you would instead be shallow for saying that. No one is owed sexual attraction.

[SorenTrigg]

Octorox wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

Collider, if you do not mind those characters being bisexual in 3, why are you so against them being so in 2?

What would the difference be?
Either way, they would be 'changed' from how they currently are.

Because they shouldn't "suddenly" want  female Shepard when they didn't a second ago. There has to be proper story development as to why they weren't interested in the first place.

Yes, I imagine there would be.
It would be just like with any other romance character. You just romance them, and the story unfolds as to why they like you.
It is not like it is really changing anything.
And again, like I said, if you are okay with them being changed in 3, why not in 2?

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

Again , that's why I think an enable/disable feature would work , because it only reflects one person's story instead of everyone's.I think for someone like Collider , there's no worrying about retconning any character's.

[jlb524]

Octorox wrote...

As a near 100% Paragon, Iv'e never encountered that. I didn't even know squad members had Paragon/Renegade meters. Shepard's effects on other characters always seemed realistic to me or at least enough to suspend disbelief.

I was just playing ME2 and was surprised that

*spoilers*

Helena Blake gave up her life of crime and became a social worker, all b/c of my Paragon Shepard.  I find that hard to believe.

[Collider]

mothbanquet wrote...
Collide, you are my friend and I respect you very much, but that sounds like the people who enter the Tali thread and say that just because some people build hideous Tali dolls then all Tali fans are creepy lunatics.

Uh, I'm not sure what you're saying here. The post you are responding to is giving a reason why people may think that some of the people advocating a same sex romance seem to think they are entitled to it. It has absolutely nothing to do with Tali whatsoever.

Plus, where your damn fic?!

I'm working on it. Gotta take it slow, it's best that way. That said, I will try to have the first chapter done this weekend.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 06:52 .

[SirGladiator]

I don't think most people are as much upset at what is 'not in' the game as much as we're upset at what was 'taken out' of the game. Whether you're talking about Ashley or Tali or whoever else, romances were put into the game and then taken out, and we feel like thats a slap in the face because it is. If you don't like the romance you can simply not play it, but if we like it we will play it and enjoy it a great deal, if they simply don't take it out of the game. It didn't bother me in the least that Kaiden was a romance option in ME1, I was never going to pick him and I didn't. It didn't bother me that Liara could be romanced by MaleShep, as when I play as FemShep that means MaleShep doesn't exist, so there's no 'sharing' or 'competition' or whatever else you want to call it, Liara is 100% devoted to my FemShep each and every time I play my game. Its the same with any other character. So no, we don't feel 'entitled' to anything, but we would very much like to have them stop removing our romances from the game. They're much more fun when you can actually play them, rather than only being able to watch them on YouTube .

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
Heterosexual men enjoying lesbian content doesn't bother me.  It's no different than heterosexual men drooling over Miranda and her straight romance.

It's just an irrational opinion of mine. As an addition to what I said, I prioritize the wishes of actual lesbian and bisexual women over men fawning over lesbians.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

It's just an irrational opinion of mine. As an addition to what I said, I prioritize the wishes of actual lesbian and bisexual women over men fawning over lesbians.

Well, as an actual lesbian I want f/f romance content in ME.  I could care less if straight men are also drooling over it.  That doesn't offend me in the slightest.

Modifié par jlb524, 26 février 2010 - 06:56 .

[Collider]

TommyServo wrote...
I could be wrong, Collider, but I don't think anyone in our group is doing that.

What group? I've seen it being done by people who have posted in this thread. Who basically said that Bioware is being homophobic or otherwise having a negative opinion or conduct towards homosexuals.

I think it's safe to say that a lot of the people in this thread hold Bioware in very high regard.  We're just confused as to why it was left out, since it was clearly more than halfway done.  And they themselves have never commented on it.

Characters go through many iterations, as is the process of good writing. You can be sure that they cut out plenty of other stuff. In the end, the sexualities of these characters are canonically what is in the final game.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 06:56 .