7455 réponses à ce sujet

[xDarkicex]

huh I think you might just not have had enough renegade points I was able to tell her both options.

[Nordic Einar]

Romances should not be at all limited by stat/skill point selection. I agree wholeheartedly with Collider on this.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Eh if you take the sexuality portion out of it sounds like a decent idea. Romances should be harder to achieve.

Why? What is gained from having the romance be a tricky endeavor that requires a walkthrough? I'm fine with making it a little harder, but I draw the line on having it dependant on charm or intimidate. Especially since charm and intimidate have been bastardized in ME2. If you have too many renegade points, you can't charm in ME2. Vice versa with paragon points. Apparently I can't tell the reporter that she's being a ****** on the Citadel because I have too many paragon points.

Then you'll need to roll another Shep who more closely aligns with that character's view points no? Just like one needs to roll a certain gender Shep to romance a certain character now.

There should be consequences for your actions. Romancing Leliana after doing a certain thing she feels strongly against made no sense to me. There should be certain actions that you do that will cut a character off from romancing you and in some cases being friends.

Maybe it shouldn't be based around charm and intimidate but rather the choices you've made so far. If you've made actions that go against what that character believes n matter the context it should be more difficult to romance them. (the face scan would be interesting to even if I have a feeling it would be difficult as all hell to implement if not impossible.)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mars 2010 - 10:54 .

[Collider]

Nordic Einar wrote...

Romances should not be at all limited by stat/skill point selection. I agree wholeheartedly with Collider on this.

Just as an extension of what we were talking about in PM, I'd like to say that I've no hard feelings towards you and I hope you feel the same.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Eh if you take the sexuality portion out of it sounds like a decent idea. Romances should be harder to achieve.

Why? What is gained from having the romance be a tricky endeavor that requires a walkthrough? I'm fine with making it a little harder, but I draw the line on having it dependant on charm or intimidate. Especially since charm and intimidate have been bastardized in ME2. If you have too many renegade points, you can't charm in ME2. Vice versa with paragon points. Apparently I can't tell the reporter that she's being a ****** on the Citadel because I have too many paragon points.

Then you'll need to roll another Shep who more closely aligns with that character's view points no?

Last I checked, people do not have paragon and renegade scores in real life. I couldn't just look at you and say "Oh, she's totally renegade." Just having a high paragon or renegade score doesn't mean that you killed the rachni queen or not.

Just like one needs to roll a certain gender Shep to romance a certain character now.

That's a far cry from the accumulation of choices throughout the game.

Romancing Leliana after doing a certain thing she feels strongly against made no sense to me.

Uh, there are consequences to doing these things. You lose approval and eventually the romance is off. Leliana can even attack you if you do a certain thing in DA:O, IIRC.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Well, it's been two months and people are still discussing this, Pathetic. Let it go already.

[xDarkicex]

lol destroy the urn I hated here ><

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...
Why? What is gained from having the romance be a tricky endeavor that requires a walkthrough? I'm fine with making it a little harder, but I draw the line on having it dependant on charm or intimidate. Especially since charm and intimidate have been bastardized in ME2. If you have too many renegade points, you can't charm in ME2. Vice versa with paragon points. Apparently I can't tell the reporter that she's being a ****** on the Citadel because I have too many paragon points.

Then you'll need to roll another Shep who more closely aligns with that character's view points no?

Last I checked, people do not have paragon and renegade scores in real life. I couldn't just look at you and say "Oh, she's totally renegade." Just having a high paragon or renegade score doesn't mean that you killed the rachni queen or not.

I actually meant the game keeps track not of just paragon/renegade score but of certian decisions like that and if those decisions were made certain characters become more inclined to romance Shep/less inclined or not willing to romance Shep.

That's a far cry from the accumulation of choices throughout the game.

Then one should make different choices no?

Uh, there are consequences to doing these things. You lose approval and eventually the romance is off. Leliana can even attack you if you do a certain thing in DA:O, IIRC.

Not if you conviently leave her behind. <_< Or happen to have a extremely high intimidate score. Hell I managed to romance Alistair doing every single thing he hated by simply leaving him behind and bribing him with the gifts from the dead companions.

[Collider]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...
Last I checked, people do not have paragon and renegade scores in real life. I couldn't just look at you and say "Oh, she's totally renegade." Just having a high paragon or renegade score doesn't mean that you killed the rachni queen or not.[/quote]

I actually meant the game keeps track not of just paragon/renegade score but of certian decisions like that and if those decisions were made certain characters become more inclined to romance Shep/less inclined or not willing to romance Shep. [/quote]
The problem is that's not how Charm and Intimidate currently works. I can't charm with too renegade, or intimidate with too much paragon, which is retarded and inhibits roleplaying. And roleplaying is example what want here, no?
[quote]
[/quote] [quote]Then one should make different choices no?[/quote]
I've already explained this.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

The problem is that's not how Charm and Intimidate currently works. I can't charm with too renegade, or intimidate with too much paragon, which is retarded and inhibits roleplaying. And roleplaying is example what want here, no?

Probably why persuade should be brought back as a skill. Though with the paragon and renegade certain characters would be far less likely to approach you if they felt that you were a ends justify the means rather than an idealist. No? 

I've already explained this.

Yup and still I stand by the fact that certain character sshould not romance you if you commit certain actions. Not lose approval, not attack you on the spot but completely ignore it later if you lie to them. They should not romance/be friend you period.

[SimonTheFrog]

uhm... the idea about the persuasion check was not meant seriously.

The most important reason is that, even though i agree that having characters fall in love with you should require more dedication than clicking friendly dialog choices for two times, i feel that ME games are above all ones that tell an epic story about a galaxy that is threatend and a hero(in) that fight this thread together with some cool allies.

A over complicated mechanism to deal with squadmates takes the speed out of the game and distracts from the main plot. It's fine, obviously, in small doses, but ME always differed from slower RPG's in this matter and i think this is intended and fine.

But if BioWare wanted to make LI a bit more satisfying to get, there would be several leavers to achieve this. I just have the feeling that they don't intend to make it more difficult than "always click top right in dialogs". Probably because they underestimate their customers or because, as Collider said, they don't want the player to need a walkthrough for dating.

Having to be friendly in the loyalty mission etc would be a good start for sure. Alignment, like in DA:O or KOTOR would work too. Pretty much like Garrus who starts Renegadish and can be turned Paragon or full Renegade in ME1.

The face-editor thing was actually just tossed in for entertainment. It wouldn't make sense at all to measure attractiveness with some sort of algorithm and also would in the worst case force players to assume a certain face just for the gameplay mechanics, which would feel very very bad.

What i wanted to say anyway was something totally different: the NPC's in the game are not real people. They only have as much character or psyche as what can be perceived through dialogs and actions. Everything apart from that is either our imagination or the lack of thereof.
This fact, combined with our hero being pure awesome (per definition), concludes in possible romances beyond what might appear "obvious" from the beginning.

For example it would be very rewarding to date Samara even though she tells us she's not interested in the beginning. But with a combination of right dialog answers and right actions (and a walkthrough) it's still possible.
Likewise it would be very rewarding to "enkindle" bisexuality in characters that would never have thought to be able to fall in love wiht the same sex before (at least for players who like that sort of stuff).

This system would require some less difficult LI options too, of course. But i think some variation would be great.

Edit: many RPG's have social skills that can be raised with skill points. I always thought that this is an interesting choice for the player: boosting the combat skills or boosting the possibility to avoid combat (in many, many RPG's this choices is nuked by the stereotypical end-boss fight that require a LOT of combat skills and makes choosing social skills look like a horrible idea )
But when, for example in ME, there would be something like a persuasion skill it could be used to gain access to romantic dialogs that cannot be get otherwise. That would certainly be worth the sacrifices in combat for many players. (vampires 2 had the seduction skill and it was utterly useless besides charming a few, pretty useless NPC's.... i still maxed it in some playthroughs and enjoyed it a lot )

But then again, i'm not sure if BioWare sees the franchise in this area of games where choices like this are possible. I have the feeling that they move it away from that towards more visceral choices (it est ingame interrupts etc where your action has a certain impact that will be displayed immediately instead of invisible requirement checks and character stats... you know, old school stuff)

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 25 mars 2010 - 01:04 .

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

Congratulations to everyone. This thread is almost to 4000 posts. Crazy......

[screwoffreg]

I haven't been in this thread ever before as I try to avoid the usual devolution to a flame fest.



I can understand a lot of your folks' frustration. If the company NEVER intended for a character to be homosexual, then I wouldn't have anything to say. Increasing evidence is showing that they did and just simply backed away. I'm not gay, but just from a writing/creative standpoint that is frustrating as all hell to hear.

[Collider]

screwoffreg wrote...

I haven't been in this thread ever before as I try to avoid the usual devolution to a flame fest.

I can understand a lot of your folks' frustration. If the company NEVER intended for a character to be homosexual, then I wouldn't have anything to say. Increasing evidence is showing that they did and just simply backed away. I'm not gay, but just from a writing/creative standpoint that is frustrating as all hell to hear.

So? That's how writing is. You consider some ideas, some make it and some don't. That's how good writing works out.

[SimonTheFrog]

Collider wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

I haven't been in this thread ever before as I try to avoid the usual devolution to a flame fest.

I can understand a lot of your folks' frustration. If the company NEVER intended for a character to be homosexual, then I wouldn't have anything to say. Increasing evidence is showing that they did and just simply backed away. I'm not gay, but just from a writing/creative standpoint that is frustrating as all hell to hear.

So? That's how writing is. You consider some ideas, some make it and some don't. That's how good writing works out.

I think he's talking about self-censoring. 

If they all agreed, internally, that some characters are bi and then some CEO shows up and tells them to cut that out, then this is bad.
If they tried to include bisexuality but for some artistic reasons felt that it would not fit the personality of the characters, than this would not be as bad, obviously (it would still be incredibly stupid if you ask me... but that's where personal preference comes in :innocent:)

[Collider]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Collider wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

I haven't been in this thread ever before as I try to avoid the usual devolution to a flame fest.

I can understand a lot of your folks' frustration. If the company NEVER intended for a character to be homosexual, then I wouldn't have anything to say. Increasing evidence is showing that they did and just simply backed away. I'm not gay, but just from a writing/creative standpoint that is frustrating as all hell to hear.

So? That's how writing is. You consider some ideas, some make it and some don't. That's how good writing works out.

I think he's talking about self-censoring. 

If they all agreed, internally, that some characters are bi and then some CEO shows up and tells them to cut that out, then this is bad.

We don't know what happened. As far as we know, these characters are not bi and that's what matters.

[SimonTheFrog]

Collider wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Collider wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

I haven't been in this thread ever before as I try to avoid the usual devolution to a flame fest.

I can understand a lot of your folks' frustration. If the company NEVER intended for a character to be homosexual, then I wouldn't have anything to say. Increasing evidence is showing that they did and just simply backed away. I'm not gay, but just from a writing/creative standpoint that is frustrating as all hell to hear.

So? That's how writing is. You consider some ideas, some make it and some don't. That's how good writing works out.

I think he's talking about self-censoring. 

If they all agreed, internally, that some characters are bi and then some CEO shows up and tells them to cut that out, then this is bad.

We don't know what happened. As far as we know, these characters are not bi and that's what matters.

Wrong: 

As far as we know, these characters are not bi YET and that's what matters. 

[Collider]

There's Simon with his lesbian fantasies again.

[SirGladiator]

Actually, we do know that Jack is bi, and we seem to know that Kelly is bi, of course all Asari are bi, obviously Tali is very much interested in FemShep and MaleShep but that doesn't make her bi, it could be the only man she's interested in is MaleShep, or the only woman she's interested in is FemShep, whatever. Of course ultimately it should be up to the individual player to decide whether characters like Tali are straight, lesbian, or bi, thats the basic point here. Leave it to each player, and you'll be guaranteed that everyone will end up happy, since it'll be exactly as they want it to be .

[catabuca]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

@Blackveldt
That was interesting, but not surprising. Reading what you provided, tends to narrow the possibility of s/s romance in ME3 in reality IMO.

Your surmising would hold more water had Bioware not included s/s content in previous titles. But they have, so we already know they are not (always) 'scared' to do so. Even if it doesn't make it into ME3, I have absolutely no doubt it will do in future titles.

[Collider]

SirGladiator wrote...

Actually, we do know that Jack is bi,

No we don't. She even killed that couple afterwards.

and we seem to know that Kelly is bi,

Not seem, we know.

bviously Tali is very much interested in FemShep and MaleShep

Male Shepard, sure. If you'd like to imagine her being with femshep for your own fantasies, well, your loss.

but that doesn't make her bi, it could be the only man she's interested in is MaleShep, or the only woman she's interested in is FemShep, whatever.

Quite literally, if you are attracted to both genders, you are bisexual. We don't know whether or not Tali is bisexual, but we do KNOW she's attracted to male shepard. If she was bisexual, why not make the romance bisexual? FFS. It's not hard to comprehend.

Of course ultimately it should be up to the individual player to decide whether characters like Tali are straight, lesbian, or bi, thats the basic point here.

Uh, no it shouldn't. Have consistent characters, we can't mold someone's orientation in real life, we shouldn't in Mass Effect either. Have some diversity for god's sake.

Leave it to each player, and you'll be guaranteed that everyone will end up happy, since it'll be exactly as they want it to be .

Uh, except for the many people who are like me and want consistent characters.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

The fact that homosexual men are well, homosexual. Not attracted to females. And probably would not have sex with females if they can get help it. Although I share some of your sentiment.

The fact that one does not wish to sleep with women does not also mean one does not want to have a family. Gay men fight for the right to adopt, and also have been known to arrange surrogacies in order to have a family. The liberalisation of laws in this area will make this easier to achieve and a reality for all gay couples.

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...

Collider wrote...

The fact that homosexual men are well, homosexual. Not attracted to females. And probably would not have sex with females if they can get help it. Although I share some of your sentiment.

The fact that one does not wish to sleep with women does not also mean one does not want to have a family.

I'm not saying that they are unable to develop the desire for a family. I'm saying that there is something to the notion that gay men are less likely to reproduce. Of course I don't echo the foolish doomsday scenarios that anti-homosexual people say where an increase in homosexuals will somehow cause the death of the human race (LOL)

[ScotGaymer]

Collider wrote...

There's Simon with his lesbian fantasies
again.

Nothing wrong with a healthy young
heterosexual male thinking to girls getting it on is hot. As long as
they recognise and accept its not everyones cup of tea. That some women
think two hot guys getting it on is hot. And that some blokes like other
blokes. And some girls like girls. And so on.

Its all about tolerance,
acceptance, realism, fairness, and equality.

SirGladiator wrote...

Actually, we do know that Jack is bi, and we seem to know that Kelly is bi, of course all Asari are bi, obviously Tali is very much interested in FemShep and MaleShep but that doesn't make her bi, it could be the only man she's interested in is MaleShep, or the only woman she's interested in is FemShep, whatever. Of course ultimately it should be up to the individual player to decide whether characters like Tali are straight, lesbian, or bi, thats the basic point here. Leave it to each player, and you'll be guaranteed that everyone will end up happy, since it'll be exactly as they want it to be .

Actually your not totally correct.

Jack isnt bi. Shes f*cked up. She doesnt have a very strong moral compass due to her messed up childhood and therefore doesnt have any real idea of what sex and intimacy should be. She uses it for momentary pleasure and for power and control.
Therefore she would only have sex with another female if it was "in her interest" - if it would help her in some way. Or if she thought it would be "fun".
She tells you herself if your a femshep that shes not into the girls.

Kelly is bi yes. Asari arent bi either tho.

I mean strictly speaking since they are MONOGENDERED (glares round at the Asari arent female crowd) females they could be considered bisexual. But since their procreation and sexuality centres around compatibility with any non asari I think it would be more correct to consider them OmniSexual. Willing to go at it with anything and anyone as long as they like and are compatibile with the individual in quest be they female or male, alien or human.

Its their partners sexuality that would be defined as "bisexual" or "homosexual" by their attraction to an asari not the sexuality of the asari themselves.

I also disagree with the "make all romances open" sentiment you are expressing here im sorry to say. People arent like that in real life and unless specifically stated (like the asari) I dont imagine aliens would be either.
The reason people are defined as "straight", "bisexual", or "gay" is because it forms a solid and immovable unchangable part of who and what a person is. 

Even if i never looked at a guy again and got married and had children I would still be gay. Nothing would change that.

Thats why I agree with predefined characters in this sense. Jacob is straight. Garrus is straight and shouldnt have been a love interest (the first game always gave the impression turians werent sexually compatible with humans!). Jack is straight (though open to hot sex with whatever).

The only existing NPCs in my opinion that COULD possibly be "bisexual" given their interactions with Shepard are Kaidan (who is rather flirty with ManShep in the first game), Tali (who in both games seems to worship and love Shepard for who he/she is), and Thane.
But I would rather have a "new" character that we could pursue that is strictly gay (none of this wishy washy "oh they might be bisexual" crap) and is only available to ManShep. Also I would like to see Kelly's Lesbian Romance made a little deeper and meaningful than what they have currently.