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[catabuca]

tyddrwsau wrote...

Em23 wrote...

 I think games like this are an excellent opportunity to expose people to a world free from sexism, racism, homophobia etc so they can learn how meaningless such prejudices are and how there's no need for any of it. 

These baseless, bigoted views are embedded in kids by their parents when they're too young to think for themselves and take what their parents say for granted.

An RPG should promote a world of tolerance and acceptance (while blowing stuff up and killing bad guys) because it can.

This is why I believe the mass effect universe should have gay/lesbian people in it . It may controversial and displease some people, but it is the right thing to do - for the sake those people it displeases as well.

Peace be with you.

It's a time-honoured element of science fiction to envision a future where we have moved past our less noble social traits to a more enlightened form. I rather like that the Mass Effect universe is grittier and darker than other adaptations of the genre that envision an enlightened utopia, where humans seem to have transcended racism but replaced it with xenophobia (for some) and squabbling with the Council races for dominance/relevance on the galactic stage. It would have been more clever for the Mass Effect team to include same-sex romance as a no-big-deal gameplay element, and gave us the fictional filter of insinuations of "alien lover" as a way to look sideways at relational prejudice.

Absolutely, tyddrwsau. A video game is a text to be read whether it wants to be or not, and wouldn't it just be brilliant to be able to credit Bioware with the balls and critical nouse to engage with these types of issues. They aren't primary gameplay elements, but subtle, game universe concerns.

Bioware already has critical acclaim for creating the ME series - I'd love to see one of my favourite developers gain even greater critical acclaim for tackling intelligent topics

[Collider]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Nothing wrong with a healthy young
heterosexual male thinking to girls getting it on is hot. As long as
they recognise and accept its not everyones cup of tea. That some women
think two hot guys getting it on is hot.

It's certainly annoying, I'll tell you.

The only existing NPCs in my opinion that COULD possibly be "bisexual"

Any character can be bisexual. To think that one character over another would be more "likely" or less likely to be bisexual is using stereotypical thinking. I got no impression from Kaidan that he was into dudes, sensitive =/= bisexual.

Modifié par Collider, 25 mars 2010 - 12:09 .

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...
Absolutely, tyddrwsau. A video game is a text to be read whether it wants to be or not, and wouldn't it just be brilliant to be able to credit Bioware with the balls and critical nouse to engage with these types of issues. They aren't primary gameplay elements, but subtle, game universe concerns.

Bioware already has critical acclaim for creating the ME series - I'd love to see one of my favourite developers gain even greater critical acclaim for tackling intelligent topics

Bioware has already done great in LGBT issues. Why? It's not even an issue. It's treated no different from any relationship. And I don't think Bioware should be expected to make political statements.

[Fair34]

As much as I support this thread, I also don't think it's a good idea to make everyone open to same-sex romances. It just wouldn't make sense and would be borderline ridiculous to me. I'd be happy with a DAO type romance. Just don't give us another Kelly-type thing, which was meaningless and almost offensive to me.

[LiquidGrape]

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
Absolutely, tyddrwsau. A video game is a text to be read whether it wants to be or not, and wouldn't it just be brilliant to be able to credit Bioware with the balls and critical nouse to engage with these types of issues. They aren't primary gameplay elements, but subtle, game universe concerns.

Bioware already has critical acclaim for creating the ME series - I'd love to see one of my favourite developers gain even greater critical acclaim for tackling intelligent topics

Bioware has already done great in LGBT issues. Why? It's not even an issue. It's treated no different from any relationship. And I don't think Bioware should be expected to make political statements.

I'd say that's an exaggeration. Bioware has touched upon subjects which most developers choose to gloss over, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for further exploration.
And the fact is that sexuality is an inherent issue with this franchise, seeing as in both ME1 and ME2, dialogue and animations for same sex relations were basically finalized yet somehow missing in the final products.

[Collider]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
Absolutely, tyddrwsau. A video game is a text to be read whether it wants to be or not, and wouldn't it just be brilliant to be able to credit Bioware with the balls and critical nouse to engage with these types of issues. They aren't primary gameplay elements, but subtle, game universe concerns.

Bioware already has critical acclaim for creating the ME series - I'd love to see one of my favourite developers gain even greater critical acclaim for tackling intelligent topics

Bioware has already done great in LGBT issues. Why? It's not even an issue. It's treated no different from any relationship. And I don't think Bioware should be expected to make political statements.

I'd say that's an exaggeration. Bioware has touched upon subjects which most developers choose to gloss over, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for further exploration.

Bioware is treading a useless and unnecessary road if they start to inject political statements in Mass Effect. The fact that homosexual relations is not treated as anything less than normal is enough. They aren't the government, they are a business. There's no obligation that they should be expected to have.

And the fact is that sexuality is an inherent issue with this franchise, seeing as in both ME1 and ME2, dialogue and animations for same sex relations were basically finalized yet somehow missing in the final products.

Not finalized. They were never finished, including lines. MShep on Kaidan has no animation that I know of. I'm referring to the sex scene.

[catabuca]

screwoffreg wrote...

I haven't been in this thread ever before as I try to avoid the usual devolution to a flame fest.

I can understand a lot of your folks' frustration. If the company NEVER intended for a character to be homosexual, then I wouldn't have anything to say. Increasing evidence is showing that they did and just simply backed away. I'm not gay, but just from a writing/creative standpoint that is frustrating as all hell to hear.

Thanks for your opinion Frustration at this apparent backing away is indeed what fuels a lot of the discussion here. I guess if those voice files, animations etc had never been discovered a lot of the threads might never have started.

Then again, Bioware's rep of including s/s content in other IPs means equally the same frustrations might have been there regardless. It's all conjecture really.

Anyway, here's to us continuing to fight the good s/s fight

[LiquidGrape]

Collider wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Collider wrote...

Bioware has already done great in LGBT issues. Why? It's not even an issue. It's treated no different from any relationship. And I don't think Bioware should be expected to make political statements.

I'd say that's an exaggeration. Bioware has touched upon subjects which most developers choose to gloss over, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for further exploration.

Bioware is treading a useless and unnecessary road if they start to inject political statements in Mass Effect. The fact that homosexual relations is not treated as anything less than normal is enough. They aren't the government, they are a business. There's no obligation that they should be expected to have.

I never said anything about obligation. What I said was that there'sroom for further discourse on the subject in question.
Video games are still largely coloured by an unremarkable adolescent mentality, a status quo I would like to see challenged by popular outlets.

LiquidGrape wrote...
And the fact is that sexuality is an inherent issue with this franchise, seeing as in both ME1 and ME2, dialogue and animations for same sex relations were basically finalized yet somehow missing in the final products.

Collider wrote...
Not finalized. They were never finished, including lines. MShep on Kaidan has no animation that I know of. I'm referring to the sex scene.

I defer to your better knowledge on this, though there's still the underlying issue with the recorded dialogue.
Even the possibility of its inclusion implies a willingness to deal with themes of contemporary interest.
- Which subsequently makes its absence all the more frustrating.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 25 mars 2010 - 12:38 .

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

I got no impression from Kaidan that he was into dudes, sensitive =/= bisexual.

Your impression =/= a universally-intended gameplay experience.

In other words, I got the impression Kaidan was hot for my manShep. I accept that in your game Kaidan is sensitive and straight, and have no intention of taking that away from you. It'd be nice if the same was extended in the opposite direction is all. Good writing and implementation means it isn't outside the realm of possibility Kaidan in ME3 could be written in a way that he would continue to appear straight for you, and continue to appear gay/bi for me, with the only difference being that this time my manShep could initiate a romance.

[Collider]

[quote]LiquidGrape wrote...

[quote]Collider wrote...

[quote]LiquidGrape wrote...

[quote]Collider wrote...

Bioware has already done great in LGBT issues. Why? It's not even an issue. It's treated no different from any relationship. And I don't think Bioware should be expected to make political statements.

[/quote]

I'd say that's an exaggeration. Bioware has touched upon subjects which most developers choose to gloss over, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for further exploration.[/quote]

Bioware is treading a useless and unnecessary road if they start to inject political statements in Mass Effect. The fact that homosexual relations is not treated as anything less than normal is enough. They aren't the government, they are a business. There's no obligation that they should be expected to have.[/quote]

I never said anything about obligation. What I said was that there's
room for further discourse on the subject in question.
Video games are still largely coloured by an unremarkable adolescent mentality, a status quo I would like to see challenged by popular outlets.[/quote]
There are plenty of examples of grey morality and serious issues in video games. I think it is genuinely exaggerating the significance of sexual orientation if there is to be a discourse in Mass Effect. How do you even know there would be a discourse? So far, sexual orientation seems to be as remarkable as hair color in ME universe. That's pretty ideal, I think.

[quote]LiquidGrape wrote...
And the fact is that sexuality is an inherent issue with this franchise, seeing as in both ME1 and ME2, dialogue and animations for same sex relations were basically finalized yet somehow missing in the final products.
[/quote]

[quote]Collider wrote...
Not finalized. They were never finished, including lines. MShep on Kaidan has no animation that I know of. I'm referring to the sex scene.
[/quote]

I defer to your better knowledge on this, though there's still the underlying issue with the recorded dialogue.
Even the possibility of its inclusion implies a willingness to deal with themes of contemporary interest.
- Which subsequently makes its absence all the more frustrating.
[/quote]
Bioware already has had gay and lesbian romances. We already know they're able and willing if they think it fits the characters. I personally would have liked Subject Zero to have hair, and she did at point have hair in concept art. I think we should defer to the judgement of the writers rather than get frustrated over it.

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...

Collider wrote...

I got no impression from Kaidan that he was into dudes, sensitive =/= bisexual.

Your impression =/= a universally-intended gameplay experience.

No duh. I'm just showing him the ridiculous of thinking that a character is more or less likely to be bisexual.

Good writing and implementation means it isn't outside the realm of possibility Kaidan in ME3 could be written in a way that he would continue to appear straight for you, and continue to appear gay/bi for me, with the only difference being that this time my manShep could initiate a romance.

Anything can be interpreted as anything. Unless

A) a squad mate can romance both genders
the squad mate explicitely says explicitely says they're bisexual

We have no reason to believe them to be bisexual. We can use stereotypes to judge them as more or less likely to be bisexual or gay or straight, but that's biased thinking. A sensitive man should not be expected to be bisexual, a muscle bound man should not be expected to be a chauvinistic heterosexual pig. Let's steer away from the stereotypes. That's my point.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
Absolutely, tyddrwsau. A video game is a text to be read whether it wants to be or not, and wouldn't it just be brilliant to be able to credit Bioware with the balls and critical nouse to engage with these types of issues. They aren't primary gameplay elements, but subtle, game universe concerns.

Bioware already has critical acclaim for creating the ME series - I'd love to see one of my favourite developers gain even greater critical acclaim for tackling intelligent topics

Bioware has already done great in LGBT issues. Why? It's not even an issue. It's treated no different from any relationship. And I don't think Bioware should be expected to make political statements.

My point, and I believe I've made it a few pages ago too, is that regardless of intent, any content in any form of media can and will be read as a statement - whether or not it wanted to be - simply because that is the way texts work.

Therefore, any cultural producer (because a video game is as much a cultural product as, say, a politically motivated novel or a piece of postmodern art) should be aware of the impact their production has. Should, in this case, is not the same as will be. Being aware also isn't the same thing as actively pursuing.

And no, I agree that s/s content should be treated in exactly the same way as straight content - in that relationships are relationships, whatever flavour they come in. That, in itself, makes a statement. It says 'people of all persuasions are equal'.

This isn't about asking Bioware to make an active political statement. It is about recognising that such statements exist in all cultural products anyway, and socially responsible cultural producers tend to be aware of what these statements are.

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
Absolutely, tyddrwsau. A video game is a text to be read whether it wants to be or not, and wouldn't it just be brilliant to be able to credit Bioware with the balls and critical nouse to engage with these types of issues. They aren't primary gameplay elements, but subtle, game universe concerns.

Bioware already has critical acclaim for creating the ME series - I'd love to see one of my favourite developers gain even greater critical acclaim for tackling intelligent topics

Bioware has already done great in LGBT issues. Why? It's not even an issue. It's treated no different from any relationship. And I don't think Bioware should be expected to make political statements.

My point, and I believe I've made it a few pages ago too, is that regardless of intent, any content in any form of media can and will be read as a statement - whether or not it wanted to be - simply because that is the way texts work.

I'm not disputing that anything can be interpreted as a statement.

Therefore, any cultural producer (because a video game is as much a cultural product as, say, a politically motivated novel or a piece of postmodern art) should be aware of the impact their production has. Should, in this case, is not the same as will be. Being aware also isn't the same thing as actively pursuing.

Somehow, I'm doubting that all you care about is Bioware being aware that their product may make an impact.

This isn't about asking Bioware to make an active political statement. It is about recognising that such statements exist in all cultural products anyway, and socially responsible cultural producers tend to be aware of what these statements are.

How have they not already recognized it? They have. There are same sex relations in ME and DA:O and they're treated no different.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

Anything can be interpreted as anything. Unless

A) a squad mate can romance both genders
the squad mate explicitely says explicitely says they're bisexual

We have no reason to believe them to be bisexual. We can use stereotypes to judge them as more or less likely to be bisexual or gay or straight, but that's biased thinking. A sensitive man should not be expected to be bisexual, a muscle bound man should not be expected to be a chauvinistic heterosexual pig. Let's steer away from the stereotypes. That's my point.

I agree with what I believe is your general premise here.

A sensitive man should not be assumed to be bisexual/gay through stereotyping or whatever. Absolutely. I think my worry is around the comment "we have no reason to believe them to be bisexual": some people in fact do believe Kaidan to be bisexual, not because of any 'sensitivity', but because of signs they interpreted in ME1 where he appears just a little too hot and flirty with manShep, for example.

I fully accept many people saw no such thing, but many also did. So, we might equally say of those who believe Kaidan is bi, "we have no reason to believe Kaidan is completely straight". So, in the case of Kaidan, evidence from people who believe he is straight and from those who believe he is bi proves that the exact same character in the exact same game can be viewed as either/or/both without any detrimental effects to those who believe one or the other thing to be true.

But yes, stereotypes are bad, mkay.

[LiquidGrape]

Collider wrote...
There are plenty of examples of grey morality and serious issues in video games. I think it is genuinely exaggerating the significance of sexual orientation if there is to be a discourse in Mass Effect. How do you even know there would be a discourse? So far, sexual orientation seems to be as remarkable as hair color in ME universe. That's pretty ideal, I think.

While I absolutely agree on that sexuality should be a non-issue, such is not the case.
Before we can deem it a conflict of yore, I feel there's a need to de-stigmatize the many facets of sexuality.
One way of achieving it could be by introducing e.g homosexuality as a normative behaviour on par with heterosexuality in commercial mediums. Such as video games.
- This is after all a microculture in which "gay" is a term commonly used for derogatory purposes.
     I make no excuse for being fairly political on these subjects, because it is an inescapable aspect of the social climate of today.
Now, do I demand anything from Bioware? No.
But their history describes a company eager to deal with these topics, if ultimately falling short.

Collider wrote...
Bioware already has had gay and lesbian romances. We already know they're able and willing if they think it fits the characters. I personally would have liked Subject Zero to have hair, and she did at point have hair in concept art. I think we should defer to the judgement of the writers rather than get frustrated over it.

There's really nothing to suggest that any of the characters in Mass Effect wouldn't be open to romantic involvement with individuals of the same sex.
Even Jack's "girls club" comment is left wide open for interpretation.
My point is that there isn't a mold for what constitutes a GLBTQ character.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 25 mars 2010 - 01:05 .

[Collider]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Collider wrote...
There are plenty of examples of grey morality and serious issues in video games. I think it is genuinely exaggerating the significance of sexual orientation if there is to be a discourse in Mass Effect. How do you even know there would be a discourse? So far, sexual orientation seems to be as remarkable as hair color in ME universe. That's pretty ideal, I think.

But their history describes a company eager to deal with these topics, if ultimately falling short.

So what exactly is your point? We both agree that we do not and should not demand Bioware to make political statements just because they can.

There's really nothing to suggest that any of the characters in Mass Effect wouldn't be open to romantic involvement with individuals of the same sex.

Actually, there is some suggestion. The fact that most squad mates are only open to the opposite sex Shepard. But another of my points that I've stated in this thread is that it is stereotypical to think that any squad mate is more or less likely to be bisexual - or that it would make more sense for x squad mate to be bisexual over others. That's biased thinking that we need to get rid of.

Modifié par Collider, 25 mars 2010 - 01:10 .

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

(Trimmed for brevity: Lots of other stuff, ending with ...

How have they not already recognized it? They have. There are same sex relations in ME and DA:O and they're treated no different.

I think you're mistaking the reason for my reply.

You said Bioware should not be asked to make a political statement. My reply was to outline what I see as the difference between actively making a political statement and being aware of the political/cultural impact they have, and that half-way house of engaging with issues in an intelligent manner.

I wasn't suggesting they haven't recognized this already. I wasn't suggesting they treat s/s relationships in other games differently.

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...

BELIEVE. BELIEVE. To believe that Kaidan is bisexual IS stereotypical thinking. What, a man can't compliment another man and be sensitive and still be straight? I've got no problems with suspecting. But unless Kaidan makes out with mshep or recalls a former boyfriend, we've got no idea and should not believe the characters to be bisexual. We do have evidence - not conclusive - to believe that Kaidan might be straight however.

Modifié par Collider, 25 mars 2010 - 01:10 .

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...
I think you're mistaking the reason for my reply.

You said Bioware should not be asked to make a political statement. My reply was to outline what I see as the difference between actively making a political statement and being aware of the political/cultural impact they have, and that half-way house of engaging with issues in an intelligent manner.

Then I'm not sure what your point is saying it to me in particular. I don't believe I've ever bouted with the idea that Bioware should be aware of their impact.

[Collider]

LiquidGrape wrote...
My point is that there isn't a mold for what constitutes a GLBTQ character.

This is what I've been saying the entire time. That doesn't mean that a writer may decide that x sexuality isn't in character for their character.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...

BELIEVE. BELIEVE. To believe that Kaidan is bisexual IS stereotypical thinking. What, a man can't compliment another man and be sensitive and still be straight? I've got no problems with suspecting. But unless Kaidan makes out with mshep or recalls a former boyfriend, we've got no idea and should not believe the characters to be bisexual. We do have evidence - not conclusive - to believe that Kaidan might be straight however.

The problem with this is it implies that heterosexual is baseline, 'normal'.

Also, you are suggesting that to 'believe' Kaidan is bi is stereotypical, but to 'believe' he is straight isn't.

I understand you are making reference to his conversation about the girl at BAAT, and that is why you 'believe' he is straight. Two points: firstly, that does not preclude an interest in men as well - it is nothing but a conversation in which Kaidan talks about a girl he loved - for you that suggests he is straight, for me it suggests he once loved a girl; secondly, I already illustrated the reasons I and many others 'believe' Kaidan to be bi - namely the vibes he gives off at various points in conversation, including tone and in some cases content of those conversations - it is NOT an act of stereotyping to read into these things a particular sexuality, it is an act of interpretation. It would be stereotyping if I were to say 'ooh, he wears pink armour at the beginning of ME2, therefore he must be raving'.

[LiquidGrape]

Collider wrote...

So what exactly is your point? We both agree that we do not and should
not demand Bioware to make political statements just because they can.

I believe my point is that whereas you feel content with how Bioware have dealt with the subject, I am not.
To me there's a prevalent feeling of catering to a heteronormative audience which doesn't object to sapphic inflections, yet prefers to avoid any suggestion of male homosexuality altogether.
There's a certain hypocrisy to publicly stating that same sex romance is not an inclusion in the franchise, and then handing us Kelly Chambers and the asari on a silver platter.
- And before anyone attempts to argue that the asari are mono-gendered and therefore lacking any dominant sexual attributes; skip the technical mumbo jumbo, take a step back, and consider them for a second.
They are women. Blue, alien, but ultimately women.

Collider wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...
My point is that there isn't a mold for what constitutes a GLBTQ character.

This is what I've been saying the entire time. That doesn't mean that a writer may decide that x sexuality isn't in character for their character.

Then I believe I misinterpreted you. My apologies.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 25 mars 2010 - 01:23 .

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
I think you're mistaking the reason for my reply.

You said Bioware should not be asked to make a political statement. My reply was to outline what I see as the difference between actively making a political statement and being aware of the political/cultural impact they have, and that half-way house of engaging with issues in an intelligent manner.

Then I'm not sure what your point is saying it to me in particular. I don't believe I've ever bouted with the idea that Bioware should be aware of their impact.

The reason I directed it to you was because you commented on my reply to tyddrwsau saying "Bioware should not be expected to make political statements". There appeared to be some misunderstanding of what I was saying to tyddrwsau.

[alias121]

huh

[alias121]

it is a game enjoy it dont disect it