7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...

BELIEVE. BELIEVE. To believe that Kaidan is bisexual IS stereotypical thinking. What, a man can't compliment another man and be sensitive and still be straight? I've got no problems with suspecting. But unless Kaidan makes out with mshep or recalls a former boyfriend, we've got no idea and should not believe the characters to be bisexual. We do have evidence - not conclusive - to believe that Kaidan might be straight however.

The problem with this is it implies that heterosexual is baseline, 'normal'.

No it doesn't.

Also, you are suggesting that to 'believe' Kaidan is bi is stereotypical, but to 'believe' he is straight isn't.

No I'm not. I JUST said that thinking a muscle meathead must be STRAIGHT was stereotypical. Doesn't matter whether you believe the person is straight, bisexual, or gay, if they have not explicitely said they were attracted to the x gender or have had sex with x gender, it's stereotypical to think that they are conclusively a sexual orientation. I could conceivably look at you and say, you're a lesbian, or you're gay, but I'd be using stereotypes in doing so since I don't know about your sexual life nor have I heard you say whether you like men or not.

I understand you are making reference to his conversation about the girl at BAAT, and that is why you 'believe' he is straight.

Wrong. I don't believe Kaidan is straight. I believe there is evidence to the possibility of him being straight. IE. the girl at BAAT and the possibility of romancing him as opposite sex.

[alias121]

ME2 ROCKS

[Collider]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Collider wrote...

So what exactly is your point? We both agree that we do not and should
not demand Bioware to make political statements just because they can.

I believe my point is that whereas you feel content with how Bioware have dealt with the subject, I am not.

Ah, I see.

To me there's a prevalent feeling of catering to a heteronormative audience which doesn't object to sapphic inflections, yet prefers to avoid any suggestion of male homosexuality altogether.

Zevran? Zevran hits on you with no provocation in DA:O, male or female. That's a far cry from no suggestion of male homosexuality.

They are women. Blue, alien, but ultimately women.

Given how "woman" is culture and highly subjective (we could go back and forth arguing whether an 18 year old female is a girl or a woman), I'm sure whether you can call them women conclusively or if it even matters. What does matter, however, is that they are female and suggesting otherwise is grasping at straws. Yes, I have seen people suggesting otherwise...

[Collider]

alias121 wrote...

ME2 ROCKS

Yes it does.

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...
The reason I directed it to you was because you commented on my reply to tyddrwsau saying "Bioware should not be expected to make political statements". There appeared to be some misunderstanding of what I was saying to tyddrwsau.

As is often the case, a lot of intent is lost over typed words. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[LiquidGrape]

Collider wrote...
Zevran? Zevran hits on you with no provocation in DA:O, male or female. That's a far cry from no suggestion of male homosexuality.

Very true. Which only raises the question why there's not even the slightest allusion to such involvement in Mass Effect.

Collider wrote...
Given how "woman" is culture and highly subjective (we could go back and forth arguing whether an 18 year old female is a girl or a woman), I'm sure whether you can call them women conclusively or if it even matters. What does matter, however, is that they are female and suggesting otherwise is grasping at straws. Yes, I have seen people suggesting otherwise...

Thanks for picking up on that, my semantic consciousness failed me for a second.
Female. That's it.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 25 mars 2010 - 01:36 .

[Collider]

Just as a revision, I meant to say "not sure."

allusion to such involvement

There is allusion to male homosexuality in Mass Effect. Hendel in the ME books was gay or at least bisexual.

semantic consciousness

I admit I was being picky there, but I also admit that until doing some research myself, I probably would have thought the Asari to be women as well in all definitions. I would argue that the absence of male asari kind of renders Asari self-indentifying as women kind of useless.

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

alias121 wrote...

ME2 ROCKS

Thank you for the insightful commentary.  Your input is most appreciated.  btw, has anyone else noticed this thread is over 4000 posts?  Incredible.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

Wrong. I don't believe Kaidan is straight. I believe there is evidence to the possibility of him being straight. IE. the girl at BAAT and the possibility of romancing him as opposite sex.

And I believe there is evidence that he might be bi. And that, my friend, renders us at an impasse.

Semantic shenannigans will get neither of us anywhere.

For me it comes down simply to this: as there are elements of role playing in this game, we all draw on particular realities in the game and interpret them in order to incorporate them into the story we build up in our minds as we play. If it is believable to each of us individually then it is valid, and no one can say what is valid in anybody else's game. It is no less feasible for me to interpret particular game realities in a way that identifies Kaidan as bi than it is for you to identify particular game realities in a way that identifies his as straight (or, for the sake of semantics - in a way that means you believe there is evidence to the possibility of him being straight).

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...

Collider wrote...

Wrong. I don't believe Kaidan is straight. I believe there is evidence to the possibility of him being straight. IE. the girl at BAAT and the possibility of romancing him as opposite sex.

And I believe there is evidence that he might be bi.

Oh yea, like what?

For me it comes down simply to this:

Truly, my principle point is regarding thinking that a character is more or less likely to be bisexual when they cannot be romanced by both genders. Conceivably, any character can be bisexual, but I don't think that believing a character that can be romanced only be opposite sexed Shepards IS bisexual is looking at the big picture. Not much point making a romaceable character specifically bisexual in a universe where all sexual orientations are considered equal when they can't be romanced by both genders of Shepard. Especially since male and female Shepard can act in the same exact ways. You can interpret or believe me to be gay or bisexual, but that does not make it so.

Modifié par Collider, 25 mars 2010 - 01:51 .

[LiquidGrape]

Collider wrote...
There is allusion to male homosexuality in Mass Effect. Hendel in the ME books was gay or at least bisexual.

While perfectly true, and while I thought the execution in Ascension was surprisingly satisfactory, they are wholly separate due to the very difference in format.
It's determinedly canon; but its exposition is isolated to the novel, which for all intents and purposes is virtually a footnote in the ME universe.
- I do not mean to discredit the effort which went into said novel, but it is a novel.
Hopefully my point is discernable.

[Ryzaki]

Wow...arguing about alternate character interpretation *

[Collider]

Yea I see, although it's still important that there is male homosexuality in Mass Effect. As for whether it's in ME3, we'll see. I wouldn't fault the developers or writers if it wasn't, but I'd like there to be a gay or bisexual male character so people would stop complaining. The most ideal method of doing so, in my opinion, would not to have another Zevran but have a morally upright man whose romance is initiated explicitly by the player, instead of being hit on by a promiscuous moral degenerate like Zevran.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Yea I see, although it's still important that there is male homosexuality in Mass Effect. As for whether it's in ME3, we'll see. I wouldn't fault the developers or writers if it wasn't, but I'd like there to be a gay or bisexual male character so people would stop complaining. The most ideal method of doing so, in my opinion, would not to have another Zevran but have a morally upright man whose romance is initiated explicitly by the player, instead of being hit on by a promiscuous moral degenerate like Zevran.

He wasn't that bad Collider.

I don't mind a bad guy (honestly a overly noble guy would be just as bad as Zev) just someone neutral. And not willing to screw anything that moves would be a nice start.

[SnowHeart1]

Collider wrote...

... instead of being hit on by a promiscuous moral degenerate like Zevran.

Hey!  Some of us moral degenerates take exception to that remark!    Seriously, I've been staying out of this thread given the way previous ones have gone, but it's nice to see such a serious and constructive conversation. 

As to the novel/game distinction, it is a different form of media, sure, but Bioware has put same-sex romances into their games before -- and DAO is actually a good bit bloodier and more violent than the ME universe.  In light of that plus the fact that homosexuality has been explicitly included in the ME universe canon... part of me really doesn't understand why Bioware won't (or hasn't) included the option for a m/m romance.  (I have my suspicions, but they're no more than speculation.)

Given the opportunity for so many characters to have been killed off at the end of ME2, I imagine we'll have a new cache of characters for ME3, too.  Do I expect Kaidan to suddenly be m/m-romancable?  No.  But, given the ongoing interest for this sort of option, I'm hopeful Bioware will finally include such a romance and, as much as I like Zevran, I'll agree with Collider that some sort of upright, paladin-y character would be a nice change.  (It's why I like the idea of Kaidan, but I just don't see that one happening.)

[LiquidGrape]

Ryzaki wrote...
And not willing to screw anything that moves would be a nice start.

"Yes, commander?"

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Yea I see, although it's still important that there is male homosexuality in Mass Effect. As for whether it's in ME3, we'll see. I wouldn't fault the developers or writers if it wasn't, but I'd like there to be a gay or bisexual male character so people would stop complaining. The most ideal method of doing so, in my opinion, would not to have another Zevran but have a morally upright man whose romance is initiated explicitly by the player, instead of being hit on by a promiscuous moral degenerate like Zevran.

He wasn't that bad Collider.

BS.
1) Tries to kill you.
2) Tries to kill you AGAIN.
3) Promiscuous.
4) Says he often sleeps with his victims before killing them.
5) Reminds you that you could kill you at any time (Oh gawd that's so hot amirite? [sarcasm])
6) Thinks the Anvil of the Void should be kept (because turning people into mindless husks is so cool right)
7) Is an assassin who kills people just for moola.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Yea I see, although it's still important that there is male homosexuality in Mass Effect. As for whether it's in ME3, we'll see. I wouldn't fault the developers or writers if it wasn't, but I'd like there to be a gay or bisexual male character so people would stop complaining. The most ideal method of doing so, in my opinion, would not to have another Zevran but have a morally upright man whose romance is initiated explicitly by the player, instead of being hit on by a promiscuous moral degenerate like Zevran.

He wasn't that bad Collider.

I don't mind a bad guy (honestly a overly noble guy would be just as bad as Zev) just someone neutral.

A character that is defined only by their moral compass is bad in general. That includes the Paladins who only care about justice (yawn) and the evil bad guys who only care about being evil for no reason (yawn). You can totally have a paragon character who is witty and sarcastic, but ultimately agrees with the paragon way. It's the road, not the destination.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

1) Oh yea, like what?

2) Truly, my principle point is regarding thinking that a character is more or less likely to be bisexual when they cannot be romanced by both genders. Conceivably, any character can be bisexual, but I don't think that believing a character that can be romanced only be opposite sexed Shepards IS bisexual is looking at the big picture. Not much point making a romaceable character specifically bisexual in a universe where all sexual orientations are considered equal when they can't be romanced by both genders of Shepard. Especially since male and female Shepard can act in the same exact ways. You can interpret or believe me to be gay or bisexual, but that does not make it so.

1) I already told you, and there has been plenty of discussion on here about it. Threads and threads worth of discussion.

2) Now, I understand where you are coming from when you say that whatever I may interpret does not define the actual reality in the game. This is both true and slightly misleading. There are certain realities in the game that cannot be ignored - and one of them is that without modding it is not possible for manShep to romance Kaidan. There is, however, no codex entry or part of the game manual that specifies that I must take that to mean I am not allowed to create my own role-playing backstory as to why I can't romance him.

For you the lack of that romance acts as evidence that Kaidan may well be straight. For me it is nothing but evidence that Bioware didn't include the option for manShep to romance Kaidan - it ISN'T evidence that I cannot interpret that lack of romance in any way I see fit. That is what role-playing is.

You say "You can interpret or believe me to be gay or bisexual, but that does not
make it so". I'll substitute 'me' here for 'Kaidan'. Equally, I can say 'you can interpret or believe Kaidan to be straight, but that does not make it so'. Now, you may counter there is 'more evidence' that Kaidan may be straight. For you, perhaps there is. For me, not so much. There is evidence he loved a girl. There is evidence he can romance femShep. So? For me that does not add up to 'therefore is more likely to be straight'.

We can go round and round in circles here, because it seems our frames of reference differ slightly. I understand where you are coming from, I really do. But I disagree with your conclusion. You disagree with mine. Oh well. Perhaps we should end with this: I accept how you view Kaidan; please accept I view him the way I do.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

BS.
1) Tries to kill you.

- Yeah but that was a suicide attempt. (Honestly what assassin takes on the legendary grey wardens head on. Tis a run of stupidty to the fullest.

2) Tries to kill you AGAIN.

Only if you don't bother getting him to warm which is a measly 33 approval and all you have to do is give him 3 gifts, the boots, the gloves, and a gold/silver bar.

3) Promiscuous.

So are all the other LIs with the exception of Alistair your point? Also he is faithful once he's actually in a relationship. Even Wynne! goes on about how mages "comfort" each other in the tower and her bastard son being taken away

4) Says he often sleeps with his victims before killing them.

As does Leliana and Morrigan.

5) Reminds you that you could kill you at any time (Oh gawd that's so hot amirite? [sarcasm])

That was more snark and hurt that you suggest he'd do such a thing after spending a night with you. Leliana mentions cheefully how she can be the "perfect" woman for other man to get close to and kill/steal information from them. I found that creepier seeing as she's near 90 approval when I had that convo.

6) Thinks the Anvil of the Void should be kept (because turning people into mindless husks is so cool right)

Yeah that wasn't cool but Morrigan also thinks for some mindboggling reason its a good idea. its the pragmatic choice even if its morally ambigious.

7) Is an assassin who kills people just for moola.

  As does Leliana not to mention he was raised from the age of 7 through pain and fear of death to do so. He was a slave turned into an assassin. Dude's slime but he was shaped to be that way. Just like every other character in the game. Tis a running theme how the past developed them into the person they are.

I don't like Zevran either but let's put things in perspective.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2010 - 02:24 .

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...
There is evidence he can romance femShep. So? For me that does not add up to 'therefore is more likely to be straight'.

Never said Kaidan was straight.

I accept how you view Kaidan; please accept I view him the way I do.

Just what is my view of Kaidan? I don't think he's straight, bisexual, or gay. I accept your view of Kaidan, but I don't you're justified logically. That's all. If you'd like to discontinue this conversation, I'm perfectly open to that.

[catabuca]

For the record, I found Zevran's story very moving. The more you talked to him to more apparent it became that his choices in life came from a sad place. But yes, I can see how he isn't the ideal gay character - there are many ways in which he can be interpreted in dubious stereotypical ways.



But I liked him.

[Collider]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]Collider wrote...

BS.
1) Tries to kill you.[/quote]- Yeah but that was a suicide attempt. (Honestly what assassin takes on the legendary grey wardens head
on. Tis a run of stupidty to the fullest. [/quote]
Doesn't matter if it was a suicide attempt. Or if it was stupid. Actually, the stupid part adds to my dislike of Zevran. What an ass.

[quote]Only if you don't bother getting him to warm which is a measly 33 approval and all you have to do is give him 3 gifts, the boots, the gloves, and a gold/silver bar.[/quote]
How incredibly ungrateful he is. You'd think it would be enough that the Warden spared his life after he tried to KILL the warden, but no. You have to compliment him and tell him he's so pretty. you don't even need to lose approval.
[quote]
[/quote] [quote]So are all the other LIs with the exception of Alistair your point? Also he is faithful once he's actually in a relationship. Even Wynne! goes on about how mages "comfort" each other in the tower and her bastard son being taken away[/quote]
We have no idea how many people Wynne has been with, nor was Wynne ever part of the discussion.
[quote]4) Says he often sleeps with his victims before killing them. [/quote]
As does Leliana and Morrigan. [/quote]
When did I say I liked Leliana or Morrigan? Last I checked, they were not
a) male
named Zevran[quote]
[/quote]
[quote]That was more snark and hurt that you suggest he'd do such a thing after spending a night with you. Leliana mentions cheefully how she can be the "perfect" woman for other man to get close to and kill/steal information from them. [/quote]
Leliana actually wants to repent for her sins. Zevran? Nothing. He's just there for snark.

[Ryzaki]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And not willing to screw anything that moves would be a nice start.

"Yes, commander?"

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Doesn't matter if it was a suicide attempt. Or if it was stupid. Actually, the stupid part adds to my dislike of Zevran. What an ass.

True I hope you dislike Sten, Leliana, Wynne for turning against the PC as well. (and there's are even dumber moments. At least Zev didn't know the full extent of the PCs fighting skills before turning against the PC).

Edit: Before originally attacking I mean.

How incredibly ungrateful he is. You'd think it would be enough that the Warden spared his life after he tried to KILL the warden, but no. You have to compliment him and tell him he's so pretty. you don't even need to lose approval.

Uh...you don't have to even talk to him just gift spam. Not only that but he's an a-s-s-a-s-s-i-n if you really expect him to trust you just for sparing his life you're retarded. Yes its dirty but everyone uses the PC. Zev has had his life spared more than once and if you bother listening to his stories would realize they only spared him so they could use him later. Tis not so astonishing that he'd think the PC would do the same.

We have no idea how many people Wynne has been with, nor was Wynne ever part of the discussion.

You keep calling him promiscious without paying attention to the game setting. People ARE promiscious in this setting!

When did I say I liked Leliana or Morrigan? Last I checked, they were not
a) male
named Zevran

But once again. THE SETTING. It is NOT strange for him to act like this! Its not even seen as overly immoral! The only PC who frankly would have any right to turn their nose down at him is the Mage and Human Noble Origins! And maybe (not likely) the Dalish Elf! Everyone else has killed people. Some likely to be innocent! 

Leliana actually wants to repent for her sins. Zevran? Nothing. He's just there for snark.

Not really Leliana just happened to find herself on the wrong side of the torture machine. Zev changes a smidge he's no where near as changeable as Lel but that's probably due to her whole wanting to be accepted mentality.

Let's compare this to the setting. Being promiscious in FERELDAN is not a mark against character its expected. You don't say that X character should act like Y in a Z setting. >_>

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2010 - 02:41 .