7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...
For the record, I found Zevran's story very moving.

Oh, very moving. Look at me, I kill people and have no regrets. How moving A moving story would be how he was born into poverty but still went against the odds and became a morally upright person. Not gleefully recanting the moments where he slept with strangers and then killed them afterwards.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
There is evidence he can romance femShep. So? For me that does not add up to 'therefore is more likely to be straight'.

Never said Kaidan was straight.

I accept how you view Kaidan; please accept I view him the way I do.

Just what is my view of Kaidan? I don't think he's straight, bisexual, or gay. I accept your view of Kaidan, but I don't you're justified logically. That's all. If you'd like to discontinue this conversation, I'm perfectly open to that.

Dude, with the semantics! Never said Kaidan was straight, but you said you believed there was more evidence to believe it was possible he was straight.

If you don't think he's straight, bisexual or gay, then are all the NPCs in your games asexual? Or just him? Do you role-play? Do you ever assign traits to the characters in games, whether based on very precise behaviour they display or simply on your own predilictions? Or do you simply see them/him as nothing but pixels and dialogue options, and not as a 'character' with character traits at all? I ask in all honestly because I can't make head nor tail of your comments there.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
For the record, I found Zevran's story very moving.

Oh, very moving. Look at me, I kill people and have no regrets. How moving A moving story would be how he was born into poverty but still went against the odds and became a morally upright person. Not gleefully recanting the moments where he slept with strangers and then killed them afterwards.

lol

And thus endeth the lesson in subjectivity.

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
For the record, I found Zevran's story very moving.

Oh, very moving. Look at me, I kill people and have no regrets. How moving A moving story would be how he was born into poverty but still went against the odds and became a morally upright person. Not gleefully recanting the moments where he slept with strangers and then killed them afterwards.

lol

And thus endeth the lesson in subjectivity.

I can't have an opinion, can I? I'm not interpreting Zev's sexual orientation here.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
For the record, I found Zevran's story very moving.

Oh, very moving. Look at me, I kill people and have no regrets. How moving A moving story would be how he was born into poverty but still went against the odds and became a morally upright person. Not gleefully recanting the moments where he slept with strangers and then killed them afterwards.

...yeah. At least bother to dig beyond the surface of a character before bashing them. <_<
No regrets? GTFO.

Good old Sten: "You must have an enviable life, or a pitiable memory to know nothing of regret." 

That itself is another recurring theme in DA!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2010 - 02:39 .

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
For the record, I found Zevran's story very moving.

Oh, very moving. Look at me, I kill people and have no regrets. How moving A moving story would be how he was born into poverty but still went against the odds and became a morally upright person. Not gleefully recanting the moments where he slept with strangers and then killed them afterwards.

lol

And thus endeth the lesson in subjectivity.

I can't have an opinion, can I? I'm not interpreting Zev's sexual orientation here.

Dude, I think you'll find I was precisely saying we ALL can have an opinion

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
There is evidence he can romance femShep. So? For me that does not add up to 'therefore is more likely to be straight'.

Never said Kaidan was straight.

I accept how you view Kaidan; please accept I view him the way I do.

Just what is my view of Kaidan? I don't think he's straight, bisexual, or gay. I accept your view of Kaidan, but I don't you're justified logically. That's all. If you'd like to discontinue this conversation, I'm perfectly open to that.

Dude, with the semantics! Never said Kaidan was straight, but you said you believed there was more evidence to believe it was possible he was straight.

Yes, I do believe there's more evidence that he's straight than there that he also likes dudes.

If you don't think he's straight, bisexual or gay, then are all the NPCs in your games asexual?

Actually, I normally don't think about character's sexual orientations. I don't look at Udina and think oh man, this guy is totally gay. Asexual is no attraction whatsoever of the sexual kind, so obviously that rules out all of the romance interests. As for NPCs like Udina or Bailey, I make no claims or have no beliefs as to what they're sexual orientation is, nor do I care. Kaidan is not an exception to anything.

Or just him? Do you role-play? Do you ever assign traits to the characters in games, whether based on very precise behaviour they display or simply on your own predilictions? Or do you simply see them/him as nothing but pixels and dialogue options, and not as a 'character' with character traits at all? I ask in all honestly because I can't make head nor tail of your comments there.

Of course I recognize that characters have personalities and all that. I don't go so far as believing them to be bisexual when their romance is not bisexual though. I'd be using biases if I did, unless the squad mates explicitely say their sexual orientation, which none of them have and likely never will.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
For the record, I found Zevran's story very moving.

Oh, very moving. Look at me, I kill people and have no regrets. How moving A moving story would be how he was born into poverty but still went against the odds and became a morally upright person. Not gleefully recanting the moments where he slept with strangers and then killed them afterwards.

...yeah. At least bother to dig beyond the surface of a character before bashing them. <_<
No regrets? GTFO.

Good old Sten: "You must have an enviable life, or a pitiable memory to know nothing of regret." 

That itself is another recurring theme in DA!

Tell me one time where Zevran said he regretted killing someone on moral grounds.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
For the record, I found Zevran's story very moving.

Oh, very moving. Look at me, I kill people and have no regrets. How moving A moving story would be how he was born into poverty but still went against the odds and became a morally upright person. Not gleefully recanting the moments where he slept with strangers and then killed them afterwards.

...yeah. At least bother to dig beyond the surface of a character before bashing them. <_<
No regrets? GTFO.

Good old Sten: "You must have an enviable life, or a pitiable memory to know nothing of regret." 

That itself is another recurring theme in DA!

Tell me one time where Zevran said he regretted killing someone on moral grounds.

Rena? Can't spell her name. But he deeply regrets killing her. Heck just listen to his voice when he's telling the story. (Of course this is the last story he tells you so you actually have to Get to know him!  before hearing it.) And you don't have to worry about him betraying you either once you tells you this story! Unless of course you for some strange reason knock his approval down by like 50 points.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2010 - 02:44 .

[catabuca]

Collider, I'm having a really, really hard time understanding what you're saying.



For a start, you're really caught up on this word 'believe'. Belief is not the same as bias, stereotyping, or whatever. I'll restructure my sentance. Instead of saying "in my game, I believe Kaidan is bi" I'll say "in my game Kaidan is bi", or "in my game I think Kaidan is bi", or "in my game, I have created the backstory where Kaidan is bi". Are any of those less objectionable for you? I mean, it being in 'my' game and all.



Next, your argument sounds all screwy: you say you don't think Kaidan is bi, gay or straight, but then you say you 'believe' (omg there's that word again) there is more evidence that he might be straight, and then you go on and suggest he can't be asexual because he's a romance interest for femShep. So, if he's not bi, gay, straight or asexual, and he's not just a blob of characterless pixels, what is he? For you?



It makes no difference to me whether Kaidan in your game is of any particular sexual persuasion, but it would make it easier for me to understand where on earth you're coming from in your arguments.

[highcastle]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
For the record, I found Zevran's story very moving.

Oh, very moving. Look at me, I kill people and have no regrets. How moving A moving story would be how he was born into poverty but still went against the odds and became a morally upright person. Not gleefully recanting the moments where he slept with strangers and then killed them afterwards.

...yeah. At least bother to dig beyond the surface of a character before bashing them. <_<
No regrets? GTFO.

Good old Sten: "You must have an enviable life, or a pitiable memory to know nothing of regret." 

That itself is another recurring theme in DA!

Tell me one time where Zevran said he regretted killing someone on moral grounds.

Rena? Can't spell her name. But he deeply regrets killing her. Heck just listen to his voice when he's telling the story. (Of course this is the last story he tells you so you actually have to Get to know him!  before hearing it.) And you don't have to worry about him betraying you either once you tells you this story! Unless of course you for some strange reason knock his approval down by like 50 points.

Also, Zevran deflects pain with humor. So assuming he has no regrets is a fallacy. He regularly lies about what he's endured (such as being locked in an obillete, an experience he assures the Warden only happened to other Crows). Zevran certainly has regrets, and to assume otherwise is to miss a huge chunk of his character.

[Collider]

Catabuca, is it wrong that I don't attribute a sexual orientation to everyone or every character I see? I can see a random dude walking down the street and not have an idea of what his sexual orientation is nor would I try to think of what he is. Likewise, you don't know whether I'm bisexual or not and I hope you haven't assumed anything about my sexual orientation. The only relevant opinion that I have regarding Kaidan (or any love interests) regarding their orientation is that there is evidence that they are of the sexuality that their romance is. No one has to conclusively say that any character has a specific orientation, just as I have no opinion or belief about the random people in a phone book.

I'd like "in my game, I have created the backstory where Kaidan is bi" because it recognizes that you are projecting your own interpretation unto Kaidan when we have no direct evidence that he is. Basically, here is an example of where I'm coming from. You see me or someone else who you are acquainted with and you believe them to more feminine or masculine than other people of the same sex. You then believe that they are straight, gay, or bisexual even though you've never them in a romantic or sexual situation of the straight, gay, or bisexual nature. You would therefore be using stereotypes.


In the end, it may be best to stop this discussion Just for the record, I've no hard feelings nor do I think you any lesser even though we appear to perpetually misunderstanding each other, cata

Modifié par Collider, 25 mars 2010 - 03:08 .

[sean_nufc]

I don't get why people are against this.



If having gay shep was an option, and jacob comes onto me you, you could just say ''don't swing that way, sorry'' and problem solved.

[Collider]

sean_nufc wrote...

I don't get why people are against this.

If having gay shep was an option, and jacob comes onto me you, you could just say ''don't swing that way, sorry'' and problem solved.

Ideally, most people would do this. However, for some reason people get offended by this. So, I think the best course of action IMO is to have same sex romances completely player initiated.

[SimonTheFrog]

Ok, we don't know what Kaidan is, exactly.
This is not surprising because his character only consists of a couple of dialogs and actions.

So, the more we got to learn about him the richer his character gets. Which is a good thing.

What's wrong with adding a romance with maleShep, then?


Edit: typo

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 25 mars 2010 - 03:11 .

[Collider]

Nothing other than wasting resources is wrong with a male romance with Kaidan in ME3, IMO.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Nothing other than wasting resources is wrong with a male romance with Kaidan in ME3, IMO.

Yup all the romances are wasting resources to be honest. Plus I'm sick of the gender pronoun switch for the Bi romances. I want some more differences damnit!

...

is it wrong that I hope that countdown is for a PS3 port? I'm sick of borrowing other people's games damnit. >_<

PS3 needs some ME love! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2010 - 03:19 .

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Nothing other than wasting resources is wrong with a male romance with Kaidan in ME3, IMO.

Yup all the romances are wasting resources to be honest. Plus I'm sick of the gender pronoun switch for the Bi romances. I want some more differences damnit!

...

is it wrong that I hope that countdown is for a PS3 port? I'm sick of borrowing other people's games damnit. >_<

Here's my reasoning. To get the Kaidan romance in ME3 you have to:
1) Be male.
2) Play Mass Effect 1.
3) Play Mass Effect 2.

It's a waste of resources creating a new romance just for those who fit the bill, for an already romanceable character for that matter. That's creating two romances for one character just for that audience. You can't have your gay friend play only Mass Effect 3 since by default male Shepard virmired Kaidan. To expose a greater audience to M/m romance, thereby using resources more efficiently, you can have a new gay or bi male character in ME3 like Hendel or something.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Nothing other than wasting resources is wrong with a male romance with Kaidan in ME3, IMO.

Yup all the romances are wasting resources to be honest. Plus I'm sick of the gender pronoun switch for the Bi romances. I want some more differences damnit!

...

is it wrong that I hope that countdown is for a PS3 port? I'm sick of borrowing other people's games damnit. >_<

Here's my reasoning. To get the Kaidan romance in ME3 you have to:
1) Be male.
2) Play Mass Effect 1.
3) Play Mass Effect 2.

It's a waste of resources creating a new romance just for those who fit the bill, for an already romanceable character for that matter. That's creating two romances for one character just for that audience. You can't have your gay friend play only Mass Effect 3 since by default male Shepard virmired Kaidan. To expose a greater audience to M/m romance, thereby using resources more efficiently, you can have a new gay or bi male character in ME3 like Hendel or something.

I hate when games cater to people playing the games late. <_< Who cares about them? 

And to fix the whole "virmire" there could be a whole questionaire or save game editor in the beginning.

BW most likely won't do it for some reason people think you need to explain the whole previous games if someone is going to be late to the party they deserve to be confused until they play the earlier games.

Oh well.

Gah. At least I have my KHBBS coming soon.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2010 - 03:26 .

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

Catabuca, is it wrong that I don't attribute a sexual orientation to everyone or every character I see? I can see a random dude walking down the street and not have an idea of what his sexual orientation is nor would I try to think of what he is. Likewise, you don't know whether I'm bisexual or not and I hope you haven't assumed anything about my sexual orientation. The only relevant opinion that I have regarding Kaidan (or any love interests) regarding their orientation is that there is evidence that they are of the sexuality that their romance is. No one has to conclusively say that any character has a specific orientation, just as I have no opinion or belief about the random people in a phone book.

I'd like "in my game, I have created the backstory where Kaidan is bi" because it recognizes that you are projecting your own interpretation unto Kaidan when we have no direct evidence that he is. Basically, here is an example of where I'm coming from. You see me or someone else who you are acquainted with and you believe them to more feminine or masculine than other people of the same sex. You then believe that they are straight, gay, or bisexual even though you've never them in a romantic or sexual situation of the straight, gay, or bisexual nature. You would therefore be using stereotypes.


In the end, it may be best to stop this discussion Just for the record, I've no hard feelings nor do I think you any lesser even though we appear to perpetually misunderstanding each other, cata

You're making quite the leap to start talking about seeing 'masculine' or 'feminine' people in the street and assuming a sexuality from that. You keep suggesting that's what I'm doing. I'm not! Wow. You're monumentally missing the point.

We're talking about Kaidan. I'm not asking you to state any belief in sexual preference for any other character. I was asking how you saying 'I don't think Kaidan is bi, straight or gay' actually works alongside you suggesting him also not being asexual because he can romance femShep, and alongside you stating you believe there is more evidence that he may be straight. It doesn't make sense.

And please, stop suggesting I am stereotyping Kaidan when I imagine him as bi. The word 'stereotype' has negative connotations and you are misrepresenting me.

The crux of the matter is whether it is acceptable for players to attribute particular traits, whether related to sexuality or not, to characters in the game. Of course it is acceptable. It's called role-playing. Whether one person believes there is more evidence for a certain trait over another is immaterial, because it is up to each player to attribute whatever traits they like to the characters. This is bound by reason, of course. But then I don't think anyone is trying to say they have reason to believe Kaidan is actually a 700 year old Krogan with daddy issues, they are merely either saying 'I thought he was gay', 'I thought he was bi', 'I thought he was straight', or 'I didn't give it much thought'. All of the above are correct. And all the 'but Bioware didn't write it into the final game' in the world means squat because it's called role-playing.

[catabuca]

And with that big ole wall of text I have to go. I don't know if I'll get chance to get back online this evening, so if not I am not ignoring anyone

[catabuca]

One quick btw before I go - I'm female, Collider, so you don't have to be male to want the Kaidan/manShep romance.



I also don't believe it would only cater to those who've played ME1&2. In fact, those who claim there's too much baggage from the previous games for Kaidan to be a m/m option might say that it is those players new to ME3 that will be the ones for whom it is least of an issue.

[screwoffreg]

Everyone is tilting at windmills here and as usual it seems my comments were taken out of context.



The only issue I have is it seems Bioware was self censoring. Do I have evidence for it? Circumstancial, certainly as it is clear in ME 1 and ME 2 certain characters same sex inclinations were removed (Ashley in ME 1, Tali/Thane in ME 2). That hardly seems like "oh wow, you know we don't like that idea anymore" when you take the time to record lines for such things, but if it truly was just a creative decision, then we have to accept that.



Above anything else, the notion that Bioware MAY HAVE HAD (I have to qualify for the ignorant) to edit things out under pressure is disturbing. If this IS NOT THE CASE, then we can certainly take exception to their creative decisions as is our right.

[tinu-fles]

Its fascinating that people argue over black and white ideas of sexuality. Perhaps society and parental guidance give us this very plain and unhelpful concept of either hetero or ****** sexuality and of course the third, bi sexuality. In all the psychological research that is conducted by peer reviewed scientific communities the resounding conclusion is that of sexuality being a fluid and often misunderstood aspect of human development.

It seems irrelevant to make character analyses of sexualities that are neither explicitly stated nor implicitly enforced within the narrative structure of a game such as mass effect. Even in situations where people deny or distance themselves from ****** sexual behaviours in real life there is still the possibility that the person may change their attitude (and indeed their behaviours) later on in their development - for example before and after someone "comes out of the closet".

On the issue of offence at references to ****** sexual behaviours in-game or anywhere else, the response is very simple; laws concerning human rights are constantly evolving just as they did when afro-american rights were being implemented. The developed countries are starting to redefine their status on gender identity rights at the moment, with many countries already supporting these rights and even defending homosexuals from discrimination. Therefore it seems that this eventually will become a non-issue for those of us living in these developed nations in the near future, and considering that Mass Effect is a game set in a fictional future universe, it is a reasonable request for the creators to embrace this shift in philosophy that is currently in-progress.

How the ****** sexual relationships are implemented will more likely be an issue of contention for the creators and how to do this without putting the player in a situation they are uncomfortable with is going to be difficult. As stated earlier (by several people) though, interest in the same sex could be initiated by the player's character instead of the opposite way around as this might mitigate discomfort.

Otherwise it's great that this topic is receiving so much discussion in general though.

Modifié par tinu-fles, 25 mars 2010 - 04:00 .

[Temper_Graniteskul]

I think part of the issue with Kaidan is that so many of his conversations with Shep seem emotionally and sexually charged, in dialogue, delivery, and animation. Admittedly my interpretation, but my partner thought much the same thing, he with his FemShep, me with my MShep. It wasn't less so for MShep just because he couldn't initiate a romance with Kaidan.

Then there's the whole 'losing you was like losing a limb' on Horizon. I'm sorry, but that just screamed deep emotional, romantic attachment, IMO. I don't care how much you respect or bond with your Commander in the field - that line? That's about lost love.

I don't consider including him as a m/m romance option in ME3 any more a 'waste of resources' than making Garrus and Tali romanceable for ME2 was. Something to be hoped for, if the devs are willing to cater to some of the fans on it. Nothing wrong with that.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 25 mars 2010 - 03:55 .