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[Arik7]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Judging by the polls and groups on the social site your assumption is wrong ( twice as many are for the inclusion in one poll and the pro group has nearly six times as many members as the contra group).

Polls are not a very good indicator here. People with complaints tend to be louder than people who are satisfied.

Then i suppose your assumptions are a better indicator than polls?  If you've been on these forums long enough, it's pretty clear that a substantial majority of fans support inclusion of a same-sex options in the trilogy.

onelifecrisis wrote...

Noone wants every teammember to be available for both sexes just having one of the male and one of the female open for a Shepard of the same sex would be enough. The only thing that defines eight out of the current nine LIs as straight is the gender check in ,not their behaviuor or dialog in the games so I personally dont see why it would be character assasination to open two of them up for s/s by a DLC.

Garrus, Thane and Jacob all have backstories involving women, and none have backstories involving men.

Bisexual men or even gay men often have back stories involving women.  New back stories could be introduced if needed. 

Modifié par Arik7, 30 mars 2010 - 12:28 .

[Wittand25]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Judging by the polls and groups on the social site your assumption is wrong ( twice as many are for the inclusion in one poll and the pro group has nearly six times as many members as the contra group).

Polls are not a very good indicator here. People with complaints tend to be louder than people who are satisfied.

Noone wants every teammember to be available for both sexes just having one of the male and one of the female open for a Shepard of the same sex would be enough. The only thing that defines eight out of the current nine LIs as straight is the gender check in ,not their behaviuor or dialog in the games so I personally dont see why it would be character assasination to open two of them up for s/s by a DLC.

Garrus, Thane and Jacob all have backstories involving women, and none have backstories involving men.

Polls might not be a good way to estimate the demand for game features but they are better than drawing conclusions out of thin air as you did.
Of the three males you mention only one (Jacob) has been with an woman, Garrus and Thane only mention a female of their own species and aslong as we dont know how a female drell or turian looks and what is attractive about them we cannot make a conclusion what this means for their taste in humans. Not to mention that having had a relationship with a woman does not mean that they cannot have a relationship with a man in the present (Sky in Jade empire to give you an example from a Bioware game).

[onelifecrisis]

Arik7 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

No need to nitpick. Most people use "gay" to refer to men and "lesbian" to refer to women.

Both are homosexual. Where's the difference from any reasonable standpoint? Also, "gay" is a gender-neutral term. "Lesbian" is gender-specific.

Garrus, Jacob, Thane... these are not characters I can see going for a gay relationship given what I've seen of them so far. To suddenly make them all bisexual would kill their characters.

This statement doesn't, well, make sense. Exactly how would bisexuality "kill" a character? As long as it's written well, there should be no problem. If Bioware would just stick the option up without slightest of explanation I might agree with you, but they're not exactly known for such half-asses approaches.
Likewise, everybody here wants separate friendship and romance paths; no matter who you romance, straight or gay, it pretty much prevents you from befriending any of the romanceable characters beyond their loyalty quest. This is something that needs to be mended, regardless of sexuality.
Also, grand majority of the people here don't want everybody to go bisexual - just one character per gender. That ought to be enough in my opinion.

Incidentally, what got you to say that Mordin is a new character, while Jacob and Thane are not? Neither was in ME1 any more than Mordin.

Why are you intentionally misunderstanding all of my statements? I'm beginning to see why the other threads got locked down. If you want to discuss the issue you'd do better to talk about the issue itself rather than nitpicking at every word. The meanings behind my statements are perfectly clear, and you're just being argumentative.

Your statements don't really make a whole lot of sense though. 

All kinds of people can be gay or bisexual.  Just take a look at those conservative family-values politicians or evangelists with wife and children, yet they frequently get outed.  Bisexuality or homosexuality cannot be "out of character," not could it change a character. 

I don't need to take a look elsewhere. My mother is lesbian, my GF's brother is gay, two of my friends are gay, and my best friend is bisexual. Sexuality *is* part of a person's character. In the mass effect series, I have so far seen nothing in the behaviour of the aforementioned characters that suggests to me they are bisexual, and I've seen actual evidence in their backstories that they are not all-out-gay. Keep in mind that this is a game. Like a movie, it shows you a snapshot of a person, and that snapshot should be designed to give you as complete an image as possible in the shortest amount of time. If Garrus, Jacob or Thane were bisexual then some clue to that should have been given by now (especially in the case of Garrus who has had two full games to do so).

[Tirigon]

Garrus isn´t attracted to humans at all, only to Shepard in special. So why would gender matter to him?

[Arik7]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

No need to nitpick. Most people use "gay" to refer to men and "lesbian" to refer to women.

Both are homosexual. Where's the difference from any reasonable standpoint? Also, "gay" is a gender-neutral term. "Lesbian" is gender-specific.

Garrus, Jacob, Thane... these are not characters I can see going for a gay relationship given what I've seen of them so far. To suddenly make them all bisexual would kill their characters.

This statement doesn't, well, make sense. Exactly how would bisexuality "kill" a character? As long as it's written well, there should be no problem. If Bioware would just stick the option up without slightest of explanation I might agree with you, but they're not exactly known for such half-asses approaches.
Likewise, everybody here wants separate friendship and romance paths; no matter who you romance, straight or gay, it pretty much prevents you from befriending any of the romanceable characters beyond their loyalty quest. This is something that needs to be mended, regardless of sexuality.
Also, grand majority of the people here don't want everybody to go bisexual - just one character per gender. That ought to be enough in my opinion.

Incidentally, what got you to say that Mordin is a new character, while Jacob and Thane are not? Neither was in ME1 any more than Mordin.

Why are you intentionally misunderstanding all of my statements? I'm beginning to see why the other threads got locked down. If you want to discuss the issue you'd do better to talk about the issue itself rather than nitpicking at every word. The meanings behind my statements are perfectly clear, and you're just being argumentative.

Your statements don't really make a whole lot of sense though. 

All kinds of people can be gay or bisexual.  Just take a look at those conservative family-values politicians or evangelists with wife and children, yet they frequently get outed.  Bisexuality or homosexuality cannot be "out of character," not could it change a character. 

I don't need to take a look elsewhere. My mother is lesbian, my GF's brother is gay, two of my friends are gay, and my best friend is bisexual. Sexuality *is* part of a person's character. In the mass effect series, I have so far seen nothing in the behaviour of the aforementioned characters that suggests to me they are bisexual, and I've seen actual evidence in their backstories that they are not all-out-gay. Keep in mind that this is a game. Like a movie, it shows you a snapshot of a person, and that snapshot should be designed to give you as complete an image as possible in the shortest amount of time. If Garrus, Jacob or Thane were bisexual then some clue to that should have been given by now (especially in the case of Garrus who has had two full games to do so).

I have a hard time believing that you are close to someone who is gay and yet you are arguing against same-sex romance options and for stereotypes. ....   I have a very hard time believing that.

Some same-sex romance audio files for Thane are present on the ME2 disk.  It's pretty clear that the writers did not write Garrus or Jacob for a same-sex romance, but then again, neither Tali nor Garrus were initially written for hetero romance.  There was no hint of attraction to Shepard from either of the characters in ME1.  That was changed in ME2.  Characters do get developed. 

[onelifecrisis]

Arik7 wrote...

I have a hard time believing that you are close to someone who is gay and yet you are arguing against same-sex romance options and for stereotypes. ....   I have a very hard time believing that.

LOL! You've gone from argumentative nitpicking to calling me an outright liar?

I'm done here. Good luck to you.

[tyddrwsau]

onelifecrisis wrote...

 Sexuality *is* part of a person's character.

I wholly agree, and the sexuality (and other elements of identity) of a person should be respected.

The disconnect comes that while the ME cast are characters we can identify with, they're not really people. Fictional characters don't have identities of their own, they're vessels of the narrative. I think I agree with you that internal consistency is important to a character's vibrancy. If Samara becomes a drunken boor in an expansion pack, it wouldn't flow. Likewise if Miranda becomes a docile yes-woman, and so on. There's nothing in the character backstories that depends on sexual orientation - even the Thane and Garrus relationships described before are with reptillian women of their own species, not with mammals from another world.

[onelifecrisis]

tyddrwsau wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

 Sexuality *is* part of a person's character.

I wholly agree, and the sexuality (and other elements of identity) of a person should be respected.

The disconnect comes that while the ME cast are characters we can identify with, they're not really people. Fictional characters don't have identities of their own, they're vessels of the narrative. I think I agree with you that internal consistency is important to a character's vibrancy. If Samara becomes a drunken boor in an expansion pack, it wouldn't flow. Likewise if Miranda becomes a docile yes-woman, and so on. There's nothing in the character backstories that depends on sexual orientation - even the Thane and Garrus relationships described before are with reptillian women of their own species, not with mammals from another world.

And likewise, for me, as I said, it "wouldn't flow" if Garrus suddenly started hitting on my (male) Shepard in ME3.

You and others have mentioned that Garrus and Thane are aliens. Not really. All the aliens in ME (except the Hanar) are just humans with different skins. They look human and they act human, right down to body language and facial expressions. The "humans" in ME are really just Americans. The other races vary only in culture. Hence a great many actual real human players are attracted to these fictional characters. A (real) heterosexual male would not be attracted to a male Quarian or a male Turian. It stands to reason that a (fictional) male heterosexual Turian or Drell would not be attracted to a (fictional) male human.

[Arik7]

onelifecrisis wrote...

tyddrwsau wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

 Sexuality *is* part of a person's character.

I wholly agree, and the sexuality (and other elements of identity) of a person should be respected.

The disconnect comes that while the ME cast are characters we can identify with, they're not really people. Fictional characters don't have identities of their own, they're vessels of the narrative. I think I agree with you that internal consistency is important to a character's vibrancy. If Samara becomes a drunken boor in an expansion pack, it wouldn't flow. Likewise if Miranda becomes a docile yes-woman, and so on. There's nothing in the character backstories that depends on sexual orientation - even the Thane and Garrus relationships described before are with reptillian women of their own species, not with mammals from another world.

And likewise, for me, as I said, it "wouldn't flow" if Garrus suddenly started hitting on my (male) Shepard in ME3.

You and others have mentioned that Garrus and Thane are aliens. Not really. All the aliens in ME (except the Hanar) are just humans with different skins. They look human and they act human, right down to body language and facial expressions. The "humans" in ME are really just Americans. The other races vary only in culture. Hence a great many actual real human players are attracted to these fictional characters. A (real) heterosexual male would not be attracted to a male Quarian or a male Turian. It stands to reason that a (fictional) male heterosexual Turian or Drell would not be attracted to a (fictional) male human.

Supporters wish the player to have the OPTION to pursue a same-sex romance.  We are not asking for NPCs to initiate same-sex romances.  Garrus could be just a friend in your game, but an LI in someone else's, as was done with Sky in Jade Empire.

Humans are Americans?  Shepard's voice actor, Mark Meer, is a Canadian.  ME was written by a Canadian author.   You should really stop assuming.... 

Garrus and Thane are fictional characters and may be developed as the writers please.  Tali and Garrus were not attracted to Shepard in ME1.  But we know what happened in ME2.   In any case, most supporters would like have at least one same-sex romance option for each gender.  It doesn't have to be an existing character; it could be a new one.

Modifié par Arik7, 30 mars 2010 - 02:23 .

[onelifecrisis]

Arik7 wrote...

*sigh*

Humans are Americans?  Shepard's voice actor, Mark Meer, is a Canadian.

I know.

ME was written by a Canadian author.

I know that too.

You should really stop assuming....

You're ending there? What about the Aussie, the Scot, the... Indian!? And I've no idea where Gabby is from. Doesn't change the fact that the human culture depicted in the game is essentially American culture. The behaviour of the "humans" in ME would be very different indeed if Turkey had been the target audience for the game. You really should stop nitpicking. I can see I've hit a nerve with you, I'm sorry for that, but you should give it a rest.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 30 mars 2010 - 02:33 .

[Zinoviy]

SirWalliss wrote...

Heres a complaint, to all the pro gay people, please stop pushing your views on everyone, there is plenty of gay stuff out there for you dont ruin our games as well.

To have an option is not to push anything on anyone else.

Not...sure where you got that logic from.

[Arik7]

You're ending there? What about the Aussie, the Scot, the... Indian!? And I've no idea where Gabby is from. Doesn't change the fact that the human culture depicted in the game is essentially American culture. The behaviour of the "humans" in ME would be very different indeed if Turkey had been the target audience for the game. You really should stop nitpicking. I can see I've hit a nerve with you, I'm sorry for that, but you should give it a rest.

If Mass Effect was written by a Canadian author, why would it be from Turkey's point of view?

You have not hit a nerve with me. I am simply adressing your arguments and assumptions. That's the purpose of this thread.

Modifié par Arik7, 30 mars 2010 - 02:42 .

[Gemini1179]

I keep thinking Gabby is supposed to have some sort of New York area accent.

[jlb524]

Wittand25 wrote...

Not to mention that having had a relationship with a woman does not mean that they cannot have a relationship with a man in the present (Sky in Jade empire to give you an example from a Bioware game).

As does Zevran in DA:O.  He has plenty of stories involving women and
none involving men, interestingly enough.  He's still very much interested in men sexually.

[onelifecrisis]

Personally I think the option would be fine *if* it were handled correctly, but that would require either new gay LI's or a reversal of how BW have handled relationships so far. Given that they saw no need to change the mechanics between ME1 and ME2 I doubt they'll suddenly decide to change it for ME3, but you never know.



As for my assumptions about the player base, they are not pulled from thin air. This community is only a small fraction of the potential audience for ME3 so I'm disinclined to take it as representative, especially given the motivations (or lack thereof) of potential voters, not to mention the potential for being branded homophobic putting off would-be speakers.



So, what's the current ratio estimate? 1 in 8? It was 1 in 8 last I heard. That means 7 out of 8 potential customers will either not care one way or the other, or will be against s/s relationships in ME3. Only 1 out of those 7 needs to fall into the latter category in order to equal the entire "vote" (not that this is a democratic process, but just for the sake of argument) of the pro-s/s-relationship camp (no pun intended). Given the amount of crap my gay friends have to put up with on a regular basis (again, no pun intended) despite the fact that I live in a relatively liberal country, I suspect that it will be more than 1 in 7. Not a fact, just a suspicion, but hardly one that I've yanked from thin air.

[Wittand25]

jlb524 wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Not to mention that having had a relationship with a woman does not mean that they cannot have a relationship with a man in the present (Sky in Jade empire to give you an example from a Bioware game).

As does Zevran in DA:O.  He has plenty of stories involving women and
none involving men, interestingly enough.  He's still very much interested in men sexually.

His last romance dialog mentions an encounter with a man and the toolset also has a comment that the male crow he mentions in his stories was more than a platonic friend, but the first only comes up if you romance him and the second becomes only clear f you know the directions because the text is not very clear.

[jlb524]

onelifecrisis wrote...

As for my assumptions about the player base, they are not pulled from thin air. This community is only a small fraction of the potential audience for ME3 so I'm disinclined to take it as representative, especially given the motivations (or lack thereof) of potential voters, not to mention the potential for being branded homophobic putting off would-be speakers.

So, you're assuming that the on-line community has a disproportionate amount of same-sex romance supporters?  How do you know that the rest of the ME audience (ones who do not belong to this on-line community) doesn't support same-sex romances as much as this community?

So, what's the current ratio estimate? 1 in 8? It was 1 in 8 last I heard. That means 7 out of 8 potential customers will either not care one way or the other, or will be against s/s relationships in ME3.

What is this 1 in 8 ratio referring to?  Is that the number of homosexuals to heterosexuals?

[jlb524]

Wittand25 wrote...

His last romance dialog mentions an encounter with a man and the toolset also has a comment that the male crow he mentions in his stories was more than a platonic friend, but the first only comes up if you romance him and the second becomes only clear f you know the directions because the text is not very clear.

OK, I wasn't aware of that (it's been awhile since I romanced him).  I just only remember him mentioning women in my recent, non-Zevran romance DA:O game.

[onelifecrisis]

jlb524 wrote...

So, you're assuming that the on-line community has a disproportionate amount of same-sex romance supporters?  How do you know that the rest of the ME audience (ones who do not belong to this on-line community) doesn't support same-sex romances as much as this community?

I don't. I thought I made that clear.

What is this 1 in 8 ratio referring to?  Is that the number of homosexuals to heterosexuals?

Yes.

[Wittand25]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Personally I think the option would be fine *if* it were handled correctly, but that would require either new gay LI's or a reversal of how BW have handled relationships so far. Given that they saw no need to change the mechanics between ME1 and ME2 I doubt they'll suddenly decide to change it for ME3, but you never know.

As for my assumptions about the player base, they are not pulled from thin air. This community is only a small fraction of the potential audience for ME3 so I'm disinclined to take it as representative, especially given the motivations (or lack thereof) of potential voters, not to mention the potential for being branded homophobic putting off would-be speakers.

So, what's the current ratio estimate? 1 in 8? It was 1 in 8 last I heard. That means 7 out of 8 potential customers will either not care one way or the other, or will be against s/s relationships in ME3. Only 1 out of those 7 needs to fall into the latter category in order to equal the entire "vote" (not that this is a democratic process, but just for the sake of argument) of the pro-s/s-relationship camp (no pun intended). Given the amount of crap my gay friends have to put up with on a regular basis (again, no pun intended) despite the fact that I live in a relatively liberal country, I suspect that it will be more than 1 in 7. Not a fact, just a suspicion, but hardly one that I've yanked from thin air.

The biggest group of supporters of f/f are straight men, the biggest for m/m are straight women, not only homosexuals want them.
And are you suggesting that all supporters are here on the site but only a fraction of those who oppose ? Because that only a small part of players is active on the social site does not mean that the ratio of support/opposition would be different in the whole playerbase.
This is an anonymous forum and the polls are even more so, so beeing afraid of getting branded a homophobe when nobody can know if or what one voted in one of them is pretty paranoid.

[jlb524]

onelifecrisis wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

So, you're assuming that the on-line community has a disproportionate amount of same-sex romance supporters?  How do you know that the rest of the ME audience (ones who do not belong to this on-line community) doesn't support same-sex romances as much as this community?

I don't. I thought I made that clear.

OK, well then, you can't make assumptions on this community (no one can).  We only have this one to judge the reception of same-sex romance in ME3.  This community is quite receptive of this content.

What is this 1 in 8 ratio referring to?  Is that the number of homosexuals to heterosexuals?

Yes.

Well then, what about bisexuals?  What about heterosexuals that like to roleplay a homosexual or bisexual character?  While 1 to 8 might be the ratio of homosexuals to heterosexuals it is not the ratio of those that support same-sex romances to those that do not as plenty of heterosexuals support the inclusion of these romances plus there are bisexuals that enjoy both same and opposite sex romances in these games.

[onelifecrisis]

Wittand25 wrote...

The biggest group of supporters of f/f are straight men, the biggest for m/m are straight women, not only homosexuals want them.
And are you suggesting that all supporters are here on the site but only a fraction of those who oppose ? Because that only a small part of players is active on the social site does not mean that the ratio of support/opposition would be different in the whole playerbase.
This is an anonymous forum and the polls are even more so, so beeing afraid of getting branded a homophobe when nobody can know if or what one voted in one of them is pretty paranoid.

Heh! f/f figures. m/m is a big surprise to me.

I said people might be branded a homophobe for speaking (posting) on the subject. As for voting, refer to my previous comment: polls tend to get more votes from dissatisfied people than they do from satisfied people. If a player is happy with the sexuality in ME, why would he seek out a poll to vote on? I, for example, haven't.

This is not the ME site, it's the BW site. BW make games with homosexual relationships. It stands to reason that the BW online community will be more inclined towards games with homosexual relationships than the average gamer.

[IngoLoema]

Pointless, I joined the "Fight for Love"-Group, because I don't want this kind of discussion on the "open" forum and now it's starting again.

[Wittand25]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

The biggest group of supporters of f/f are straight men, the biggest for m/m are straight women, not only homosexuals want them.
And are you suggesting that all supporters are here on the site but only a fraction of those who oppose ? Because that only a small part of players is active on the social site does not mean that the ratio of support/opposition would be different in the whole playerbase.
This is an anonymous forum and the polls are even more so, so beeing afraid of getting branded a homophobe when nobody can know if or what one voted in one of them is pretty paranoid.

Heh! f/f figures. m/m is a big surprise to me.

I said people might be branded a homophobe for speaking (posting) on the subject. As for voting, refer to my previous comment: polls tend to get more votes from dissatisfied people than they do from satisfied people. If a player is happy with the sexuality in ME, why would he seek out a poll to vote on? I, for example, haven't.

This is not the ME site, it's the BW site. BW make games with homosexual relationships. It stands to reason that the BW online community will be more inclined towards games with homosexual relationships than the average gamer.

Never heard of slash, shonen ai or yaoi ?
And while those who dont care definatly are the majority on this subject ( like they are on any other subject ) wont seek out that poll, both those who activly support or oppose it do so ( the opposers even have a link to the poll I mentioned in thir group description) and the supporters still outnumber them two to one.

[onelifecrisis]

Wittand25 wrote...

Never heard of slash, shonen ai or yaoi ?

Er, no, actually. Should I google or do you care to elaborate?

And while those who dont care definatly are the majority on this subject ( like they are on any other subject ) wont seek out that poll, both those who activly support or oppose it do so ( the opposers even have a link to the poll I mentioned in thir group description) and the supporters still outnumber them two to one.

I am suggesting that there may be great many silent opposers to whom it has not even occurred that they need to vote, especially given BioWare's public statement that (male) Shepard will not turn gay (I really need to find a link to that before someone else attacks me on it) and the presumable natural assumption of many ME1/2 gamers that ME3 will continue what is now an established trend in the series. Whether or not that is true is a matter for BW to judge.