7455 réponses à ce sujet

[cutthecameras]

jlb524 wrote...

Collider wrote...

It's just an irrational opinion of mine. As an addition to what I said, I prioritize the wishes of actual lesbian and bisexual women over men fawning over lesbians.

Well, as an actual lesbian I want f/f romance content in ME.  I could care less if straight men are also drooling over it.  it doesn't offend me in the slightest.

That goes for me as well, and I'm sure many others.

[mothbanquet]

jlb524 wrote...

Collider wrote...

It's just an irrational opinion of mine. As an addition to what I said, I prioritize the wishes of actual lesbian and bisexual women over men fawning over lesbians.

Well, as an actual lesbian I want f/f romance content in ME.  I could care less if straight men are also drooling over it.  That doesn't offend me in the slightest.

It better not because that's where i come in!! :lol:

Modifié par mothbanquet, 26 février 2010 - 06:59 .

[Heavensrun]

Collider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Well, they can just say Tali was 'extra' shy around Female Shepard because Tali knows about human prejudices against homosexual behavior and didn't want to offend the Commander by expressing interest in her.

I'm not saying don't have the option in ME3. I couldn't care less if Tali was romanceable by females in ME3. The distinction is that I would dislike it if they had DLC that effectively retconned Tali's character, for a very small audience of likely heterosexual male players. I'm sorry, but it is really hard to shake off negative feelings towards hetero guys who are just drooling over lesbians.

The writers can make any of these work if they want to.

I agree. If they so choose, make Kaidan, Thane, Ashley, whoever bisexual in ME3, just don't retcon.

I can agree with this.  I'm also in the camp of people who would prefer not to see love interest retconning.  Not, mind you, because it would disrupt my game experience in any way, but because the detractors of same-gender relationships would whine endlessly about bioware blowing off story integrity.

If they decide to make Tali bi, I would hope that it shows up in ME3, possibly with a "I felt this way about you back then, but I felt awkward about propositioning another woman....I never thought of myself that way" kind of line.

For my part, I honestly didn't mind ME2 not having a same sex option, despite being bisexual myself, and generally disliking double standards.  They had expressed that they were pursuing a mainstream audience with this franchise, and while I disagreed with it, I could respect their decision from a practical perspective.

But Ray Muzyka's interview seriously cheesed me off.  They didn't limit male shep's romance options for some narrative statement about Shepard's character.  You can change his gender, his proclivity for violence, and, if you do change his gender, -her- sexual prefference, but -his- sexual prefference is off limits strictly because of some higher narrative goal?

That response was...demeaningly condecending at best.  As if he thinks the GLBT community in Bioware's fanbase wouldn't see right through it.

I also agree with the poster who contends that appeasing the naysayers with offers to "keep out of their way" is counter productive.  The interest in same sex relationship options is there, and there are good reasons for bioware to include it.  We don't have to appease the detractors.  We simply have to point out that most people -don't care-, -won't care-, and the sales figures for other games that featured same-sex content bear that out.  We don't have to compromise, we just have to convince Bioware that we're here, and that we want our tastes to be included in the options for Mass Effect 3 and other games in other franchises.

I just hope that the devs haven't gotten so "on the defensive" about this issue that they've knuckled down their position on it.  The IGN interview really makes me worry about Ray's attitude towards the topic.

As has been mentioned, Bioware really is exceptionally progressive and inclusive when it comes to same-gender romance options, and has been for a long time.  I would just like to see them continue their trend of inclusiveness in future games in this franchise.

[CommanderShawn]

maybe there is no same sex because the writer of the game did not want it in his story and yes it was in mass effect 1 that's why they got bashed on the news for it and its not in ME2 and please don't count Kelly cause you do nothing with her

[Jimmy Fury]

Pardon my slight tangent here. I'll try to avoid TLDR text wall but I am overwhelmed with a desire to dive face first into this whole "pre-defined character" thing.

Dr. Ray was wrong. This is not an opinion, this is not some obscure inferrence, this is based on simple inarguable data. I shall explain.

1: ME has more customization than DAO. Shepard has 54 variations. 3 backgrounds, 3 military histories, and 6 combat classes. This does not even take into account sex and physical appearance. These are story elements and there are 54 of them.
DAO has 12 variations on "The Warden". 3 variations of human, 5 variations of Elf, and 4 variations of Dwarf. =12.

2: The only difference in story progression in the 2 games is that in DAO you play the origin mission and in ME you simply click a box. The Warden always becomes a warden the same way Shepard always joins the alliance. It is exactly the same.

3: In terms of Narrative Style, again, they are exactly the same. They are both first-person-by-proxy narrations because the entire story unfolds as seen by the player via Shepard/Warden. The only minor difference is that the opening and conclusion of DAO are actually narrated by a third person narrator...

4: Now the big bit. The notion of Shepard as a pre-defined character. I have recently realized that the very best argument against this idea is the simple fact that there are, by nature of the romance options, 2 Shepards. Ignore the sex for a moment and look at how the options are presented.
A pre-defined character would have the same options no matter what variables were changed in character creation.
Pre-defined Shep = Options A, B, and C.
However, that is not the case. Changing the sex of Shepard alters those options.
Shep 1= Options A and B. Shep 2= Option C.
Not to stray off topic, but compare this to an actual pre-defined character that has character creation options. The Saint from Saints Row 2 (I will be very brief and it is extreeeemely topical)
The Saint always has the exact same options in the game. It doesn't matter if the saint is Male or Female. Every single interaction with your gang members are exactly the same. Indeed both male and female Saint enjoy lap dances from women.

If Shepard was predefined then all options would be the same. If m.Shep is the "canon" Shep and the story is predefined around him, then f.Shep should only have lesbian romance options. This way every single Shep has the exact same options.
But she does not. F.Shep has the ability to be hetero, ******, or bi. m.Shep should, if Shepard is predefined, have these same options.

[Collider]

SirGladiator wrote...

I don't think most people are as much upset at what is 'not in' the game as much as we're upset at what was 'taken out' of the game. Whether you're talking about Ashley or Tali or whoever else, romances were put into the game and then taken out, and we feel like thats a slap in the face because it is.

People are so damn sensitive. It is not a slap in the face. In the end, it could have been decided that these characters are simply not bisexual. Sexuality is an aspect of any character, and it does affect their conduct and behavior. There is no formula for deciding what characters should or should not be x sexuality, but the writers seem to generally have the final say.

If you don't like the romance you can simply not play it,

The only thing I am disagreeing with in regards to same sex romances is retconning the characters. I couldn't care less if there are same sex romances in ME3, or if these characters effectively become bisexual in ME3. For story integrity, keep their sexualities in ME2 as is.

So no, we don't feel 'entitled' to anything, but we would very much like to have them stop removing our romances from the game. They're much more fun when you can actually play them, rather than only being able to watch them on YouTube .

Never said anyone in particular felt they were entitled. It is just the impression I have gotten from some people who believe Bioware is giving homosexuals the finger.

[FKA_Servo]

Collider wrote...

TommyServo wrote...
I could be wrong, Collider, but I don't think anyone in our group is doing that.

What group? I've seen it being done by people who have posted in this thread. Who basically said that Bioware is being homophobic or otherwise having a negative opinion or conduct towards homosexuals.

I think it's safe to say that a lot of the people in this thread hold Bioware in very high regard.  We're just confused as to why it was left out, since it was clearly more than halfway done.  And they themselves have never commented on it.

Characters go through many iterations, as is the process of good writing. You can be sure that they cut out plenty of other stuff. In the end, the sexualities of these characters are canonically what is in the final game.

The post and FAQ was brainstormed by Fight For The Love.

In any event, I'm talking about Shepard, not any of the existing nonplayer characters.  I'd be more interested in adding someone new.

There is no canon Shepard though.  While I don't think anyone here has flat out accused Bioware of homophobia, a lot of people think its very strange that they can play a gay woman but not a gay man, especially when it made it to release in other Bioware IPs.  It's a fair question, and one that has never been satisfyingly answered.

If MShep and FemShep are the same character (they are) why is this limitation imposed on one iteration?  Why is lesbian FemShep good writing and gay MShep bad writing?

Modifié par TommyServo, 26 février 2010 - 07:04 .

[Lord Atlia]

First I will support this to the degree that not every romance is gay or straight at the drop of a hat. As long as characters have predefined gender preferences it is all good. This means that some straight characters can never be gay and some gay characters can never be straight.



However on the topic at hand of ME, I think that there was a marketing shift between ME1 and ME2. People think that it is the demographics they are marketing to that shifted but I think it is how they approached marketing ME2. Sheploo has been come an iconic ME2 figure and in a sense moved towards a canonical Shepard. Inter species intercourse is strange to some people out there and so is homosexual intercourse. Thane's romance is very touching and would be equally touching as a homosexual romance. However homophobes or those that find homosexuality funny might turn it into an internet joke which could both offend the gay and lesbian community and also work against all the marketing trying to push Shepard as a marketable product.

[Jazharah]

I've been a big supporter of same-sex romances from the beginning, until the flamewars got out of hand. I'm completely with Mr. Woo when it comes to discussing it on the forums.
I applaud the continued effort, and the setup of this OP and thread. I haven't been part of the discussion since ME2 came out for the reason mentioned above, and I won't involve myself either anymore. Also with this thread, I have only read the OP.

That said, I'd like to show my support again with this post, and continue to keep my sig and be member of the 'Fight for the Love' group.

Keep up the good work!

Modifié par Jazharah, 26 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[CommanderShawn]

[quote]Lord Atlia wrote...

First I will support this to the degree that not every romance is gay or straight at the drop of a hat. As long as characters have predefined gender preferences it is all good. This means that some straight characters can never be gay and some gay characters can never be straight.

i agree with you on that cause in other theards people wanted every character in the game to be gay which i think would be a bit stupid

[Octorox]

Collider wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

I don't think most people are as much upset at what is 'not in' the game as much as we're upset at what was 'taken out' of the game. Whether you're talking about Ashley or Tali or whoever else, romances were put into the game and then taken out, and we feel like thats a slap in the face because it is.

People are so damn sensitive. It is not a slap in the face. In the end, it could have been decided that these characters are simply not bisexual. Sexuality is an aspect of any character, and it does affect their conduct and behavior. There is no formula for deciding what characters should or should not be x sexuality, but the writers seem to generally have the final say.

That's where I stand. Add gay/lesbian/bi characters but don't make every character bisexual just so everyone can approach any romance option

[CommanderShawn]

Lord Atlia wrote...

First I will support this to the degree that not every romance is gay or straight at the drop of a hat. As long as characters have predefined gender preferences it is all good. This means that some straight characters can never be gay and some gay characters can never be straight.

 

i agree with you on that cause in other theards people wanted every
character in the game to be gay which i think would be a bit stupid

[Collider]

Heavensrun wrote...
But Ray Muzyka's interview seriously cheesed me off.  They didn't limit male shep's romance options for some narrative statement about Shepard's character.  You can change his gender, his proclivity for violence, and, if you do change his gender, -her- sexual prefference, but -his- sexual prefference is off limits strictly because of some higher narrative goal?

I think people may be reading too much into this. It's not as simple as
a) Bioware hates or dislikes homosexuals or other homosexual things.
Bioware doesn't care about the GLBT audience
c) Bioware is intentionally insulting the GLBT audience
d) Bioware is making a political statement
e) Bioware owes players homosexual romances

We have plenty of examples that are contrary to these.

I just hope that the devs haven't gotten so "on the defensive" about this issue that they've knuckled down their position on it.  The IGN interview really makes me worry about Ray's attitude towards the topic.

You have to put it into context. If I "made" a game, and people started accusing me of being homophobic, I would get defensive, because I know I am NOT homophobic nor would I like my group or company portrayed that way.

[CommanderShawn]

interesting

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

That's the thing , I don't think that Bioware is being homophobic or scared because they slightly censored sex scenes.There's always a reason , maybe not the best reason but something that says what they're position is.



This is BioWare's game they decide what goes in period. They can offer a branch to customers of how they can improve the game , but they don't have to include every idea.No matter how some may feel.

[Collider]

While I don't think anyone here has flat out accused Bioware of homophobia,

I've already seen it. Maybe not in this thread, but 100% sure I saw it word for word in another thread dealing with same sex romances. That Bioware was a group of homophobes.

a lot of people think its very strange that they can play a gay woman but not a gay man, especially when it made it to release in other Bioware IPs.  It's a fair question, and one that has never been satisfyingly answered.

It's not as if Bioware has never done homosexual gay romances before. Because they have. So saying "lawl they're homophobic but Zevran and Sky don't count lololololololol"

If MShep and FemShep are the same character (they are) why is this limitation imposed on one iteration?  Why is lesbian FemShep good writing and gay MShep bad writing?

If you got that impression from me, I never stated or intentionally implied that x sexuality = good, y sexuality = bad. You can wonder at the question to the answer, but the line is drawn when someone starts putting words into Bioware's mouth.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 07:10 .

[FKA_Servo]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

That's the thing , I don't think that Bioware is being homophobic or scared because they slightly censored sex scenes.There's always a reason , maybe not the best reason but something that says what they're position is.

This is BioWare's game they decide what goes in period. They can offer a branch to customers of how they can improve the game , but they don't have to include every idea.No matter how some may feel.

Troof.

We're just here reminding them there is a sizable audience for this content and providing arguments in favor of it's inclusion.  We don't necessarily expect they'll do it, though it would be nice.  But there's no reason for us not to talk about it.  We like talking about it.

[asaiasai]

Octorox wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

I agree with the OP and i support relationships for the PC with any NPC regardless of sex. It should not matter to anyone how an individual wants to play thier character, this whole discussion to me is like trying to debate a character build. One infiltrator build versus another infiltrator build in a game where neither builds will be pitted against each other, is somewhat specious, it should have been in from the beginning. The option for whatever romance the player wants to engage in should have been included from ME just like it was in DAO.

I think the simplest way to resovle this issue is to open up the romances to any NPC but the player MUST build the character to make it possible. Let me explain by example.

In both games we have stats called persuasion/intimidation that influences the NPC's attitudes towards the PC. If a male shep wanted to engage in a relationship with Garrus or Jacob they would need to build a higher persuasion character at the detriment of another stat like weapon accuracy. The player would have to make a consious decision to build for a specific romance where it would take less persuasion/intimidation for the same PC to romance Jack or Tali, as the relationship is more "traditional".

Now i also think that taking my idea above and adding to it a specific dialog option to initate a romance with any NPC, something along the lines of "Express Romantic Interest". The player would HAVE to select that option while in a conversation with the character of thier choice, they would also need sufficent persuasion/intimidation before the dialog option would even present itself.

I know what some folks are thinking why is there a penalty for this type of option? Look at it more of a way to compromise. I am a hetero male who drives nothing but femsheps, I am willing to trade a few stat points to engage in a F/F romance of my choice, it really is more of a matter of how you look at it, the folks for who this would not be an option will use thier stat points elsewhere. In the end seriously does 10% less accuracy and a 2 sec longer cool down in order to build enough persuasion points to engage in the romance partner of your choice really matter? This seems to be a way to provide the options with out really having to call any more attention to them.

Just a thought

Asai

Now this is exactly what I'm against. Everyone is the galaxy shouldn't be straight but they shouldn't all be bi either. Being able to romance ANY character regardless of their sexual orientation would just ruin the idea of romance in Mass Effect for me.

You are missing the point entirely, it is a single player experience, what MY universe offers as opposed to what YOUR universe offers SHOULD be completely different experiences. It is already a completely different experience because you build your character differently than i would build mine. The precedent is already in the game because of the choices you made in your build means you approach combat differently than i do already. My way creates an opportunity for for the player to play in a universe of thier choice. If you do not want to have a same sex romance then do not spend the additional points to necessary to boost your persuasion to a level sufficient to enter in a same sex romance.

I will attempt to be more concise.

Taking the curent player options for builds there are 8 stats in ME2 that determine the effectivness of the player in combat or interactions with the NPCs. To max out the persuasion/intimidation stat requires 10 total points. At 6 points expended all store discounts and dialog options are open, you as a player do not need to max out your persuasion/intimidation stat because you will not be looking to engage in a same sex romance, in a sense you max out at 6 where as i max out at 10, because the option to engage in same sex romances is more important to me than maxing out another stat. You never have to worry about a dialog option even popping up in a conversation with a same sex crew member because your stats will not allow it. The choice for a same sex romance becomes a consious choice, that i have to choose to make, period.

What you seem to be saying is that i have to play in your universe, which in a sense i already am right up until i spend the additional 4 points necessary to max out my persuasion/intimidation stat. It is only then that my universe changes compared to your universe, and that change is a small one. You will never have to play in my universe and that is fine by me, all i am saying is that you should be willing to allow me the same courtsey that i am extending to you. This is imho the simplest compromise because it puts the onus on the player to consiously make the choice that in reality should be thier's to make anyway.

Asai

[FKA_Servo]

Collider wrote...

While I don't think anyone here has flat out accused Bioware of homophobia,

I've already seen it. Maybe not in this thread, but 100% sure I saw it word for word in another thread dealing with same sex romances. That Bioware was a group of homophobes.

a lot of people think its very strange that they can play a gay woman but not a gay man, especially when it made it to release in other Bioware IPs.  It's a fair question, and one that has never been satisfyingly answered.

It's not as if Bioware has never done homosexual gay romances before. Because they have. So saying "lawl they're homophobic but Zevran and Sky don't count lololololololol"

If MShep and FemShep are the same character (they are) why is this limitation imposed on one iteration?  Why is lesbian FemShep good writing and gay MShep bad writing?

If you got that impression from me, I never stated or intentionally implied that x sexuality = good, y sexuality = bad. You can wonder at the question to the answer, but the line is drawn when someone starts putting words into Bioware's mouth.

I get the sense that we're more or less on the same side (but correct me if I'm wrong).  I don't mean to be hostile if I came across that way.  Besides, I just like debating this stuff.

I like Bioware, and I know they're not bigots.  I don't think I was putting words in their mouth.  And that last thread (if you're referring to the one I think you're referring to) was a train wreck.  Nobody who devotes more than a second's thought to the issue could possibly accuse Bioware of homophobia.

I still think that the question, as I posed it, is a good one.

[Jimmy Fury]

Collider wrote...
I've already seen it. Maybe not in this thread, but 100% sure I saw it word for word in another thread dealing with same sex romances. That Bioware was a group of homophobes.

Something said by one person does not mean we all feel that way. Many of your posts seem to suggest it is a popular feeling from our side of the debate. It is not.

[Octorox]

asaiasai wrote...

Octorox wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

I agree with the OP and i support relationships for the PC with any NPC regardless of sex. It should not matter to anyone how an individual wants to play thier character, this whole discussion to me is like trying to debate a character build. One infiltrator build versus another infiltrator build in a game where neither builds will be pitted against each other, is somewhat specious, it should have been in from the beginning. The option for whatever romance the player wants to engage in should have been included from ME just like it was in DAO.

I think the simplest way to resovle this issue is to open up the romances to any NPC but the player MUST build the character to make it possible. Let me explain by example.

In both games we have stats called persuasion/intimidation that influences the NPC's attitudes towards the PC. If a male shep wanted to engage in a relationship with Garrus or Jacob they would need to build a higher persuasion character at the detriment of another stat like weapon accuracy. The player would have to make a consious decision to build for a specific romance where it would take less persuasion/intimidation for the same PC to romance Jack or Tali, as the relationship is more "traditional".

Now i also think that taking my idea above and adding to it a specific dialog option to initate a romance with any NPC, something along the lines of "Express Romantic Interest". The player would HAVE to select that option while in a conversation with the character of thier choice, they would also need sufficent persuasion/intimidation before the dialog option would even present itself.

I know what some folks are thinking why is there a penalty for this type of option? Look at it more of a way to compromise. I am a hetero male who drives nothing but femsheps, I am willing to trade a few stat points to engage in a F/F romance of my choice, it really is more of a matter of how you look at it, the folks for who this would not be an option will use thier stat points elsewhere. In the end seriously does 10% less accuracy and a 2 sec longer cool down in order to build enough persuasion points to engage in the romance partner of your choice really matter? This seems to be a way to provide the options with out really having to call any more attention to them.

Just a thought

Asai

Now this is exactly what I'm against. Everyone is the galaxy shouldn't be straight but they shouldn't all be bi either. Being able to romance ANY character regardless of their sexual orientation would just ruin the idea of romance in Mass Effect for me.

You are missing the point entirely, it is a single player experience, what MY universe offers as opposed to what YOUR universe offers SHOULD be completely different experiences. It is already a completely different experience because you build your character differently than i would build mine. The precedent is already in the game because of the choices you made in your build means you approach combat differently than i do already. My way creates an opportunity for for the player to play in a universe of thier choice. If you do not want to have a same sex romance then do not spend the additional points to necessary to boost your persuasion to a level sufficient to enter in a same sex romance.

I will attempt to be more concise.

Taking the curent player options for builds there are 8 stats in ME2 that determine the effectivness of the player in combat or interactions with the NPCs. To max out the persuasion/intimidation stat requires 10 total points. At 6 points expended all store discounts and dialog options are open, you as a player do not need to max out your persuasion/intimidation stat because you will not be looking to engage in a same sex romance, in a sense you max out at 6 where as i max out at 10, because the option to engage in same sex romances is more important to me than maxing out another stat. You never have to worry about a dialog option even popping up in a conversation with a same sex crew member because your stats will not allow it. The choice for a same sex romance becomes a consious choice, that i have to choose to make, period.

What you seem to be saying is that i have to play in your universe, which in a sense i already am right up until i spend the additional 4 points necessary to max out my persuasion/intimidation stat. It is only then that my universe changes compared to your universe, and that change is a small one. You will never have to play in my universe and that is fine by me, all i am saying is that you should be willing to allow me the same courtsey that i am extending to you. This is imho the simplest compromise because it puts the onus on the player to consiously make the choice that in reality should be thier's to make anyway.

Asai

but your suggestion involves me not only having control of Shepard, but also of every other character in my ME universe. As Shepard I do everything in my power to change things in my world and customize myself however I want, but I shouldn't have the power to make NPC's orientations the way I want them to be. I like the idea that my Shepard is my character who is dropped into this living, breathing universe, not an all powerful character who the universe revolves around. I also don't like the idea of relationships dependent upon numbers and stats...

[Collider]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
Something said by one person does not mean we all feel that way. Many of your posts seem to suggest it is a popular feeling from our side of the debate. It is not.

I'm sorry you feel this way, because I have made no intentional effort to any way imply that I thought most same sex supports feel they are entitled.

[Ryzaki]

I think alot of people are missing two words: VIDEO GAME

'Tis ment to be fun. :"( Logical and concise but fun (and sometimes logic and coherency goes bye bye when it comes to fun time.)

We all love the ME world but let's not pretend that its something it isn't. The game's primary purpose is to provide entertainment. Nothing more nothing less.

As long as the game remains fun for all of us should we really begrudge others easily avoided choices?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 février 2010 - 07:21 .

[Collider]

[quote]TommyServo wrote...
I get the sense that we're more or less on the same side (but correct me if I'm wrong).[/quote]
This happens often. Anyway, we do appear to be on the same side.

I don't mean to be hostile if I came across that way.[/quote]
No you haven't.

[quote]Besides, I just like debating this stuff.[/quote]
As do I.

[quote]I like Bioware, and I know they're not bigots.  I don't think I was putting words in their mouth.[/quote]
I know, I wasn't referring to you when I said words in mouth.

[quote]And that last thread (if you're referring to the one I think you're referring to) was a train wreck.  Nobody who devotes more than a second's thought to the issue could possibly accuse Bioware of homophobia.[/quote]
It may have been the last one, I think it was, but it could have been the one before that. Anyway, I have seen it elsewhere irregardless.

[quote]I still think that the question, as I posed it, is a good one.
[/quote]
Regarding how lesbian = good writing, gay = bad? An interesting question. But I don't think anyone has actually said that lesbian = good writing, etc.