7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Fade9wayz]

The Knights who say Ni wrote...

I support this topic. It is illogical to stat that the main character in Mass Effect is "pre-defined" when you can choose the character's sex, facial features, back story and class. Further through player's choice of dialog and actions the player develops the character towards a specific goal. There is no reason why the choice of whom your character has a relationship cannot be determined by the player as well. It is not a case of pushing one's orientation onto someone else, but a matter of allowing a person to role play the game as they choose. Considering that KOTOR, Jade Empire, and Dragon Age didn't bring about the downfall of society by allowing players to chose the person(s) their characters had relationships with; I doubt that Mass Effect would if they included homosexual relationships either in the main story or as a DLC pack.

Thank you for your support and... Ni! 

[SimonTheFrog]

Fade9wayz wrote...

<snip>

Back on topic: Does anyone know if Kasumi is a romanceable character, and if so in a F/F capacity? Or is she just some female Zaeed? The informations I got until now are rather contradictory...

She's the female Zaeed. You click, she rants about past missions.
You may love her, but she won't love you back 

That's what I've read it in several previews, at least.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

FiveThreeTen wrote...

Part of me feels that every character shouldn't be made bisexual . But in the other hand why would it ruins their characters if they were made available for both genders ? If the option is there, and that you have to trigger it explicitely, it shouldn't be a problem .
I have to admit I don't have a definite opinion on this question

This is my question. Admittedly, it's totally IMO that it wouldn't, but I'm not sure why there's such a backlash to the idea. I mean, it's not like a FemShep romancing Tali suddenly takes her away as an LI from someone else's MShep out there. I've not seen anything in anyone's backstory so far that absolutely excludes s/s romance, though I do kind of like the idea that some of the LIs might turn Shep down (f/m included).

[Fade9wayz]

@SimonTheFrog : Ah, thanks, that's what I was afraid of, oh well, that will save me some money then

[OrbitalWings]

I've always been of the opinion that all characters should be available for everyone.

People complain about "making everyone bisexual", but all they would need to do is structure the dialogue so that for example to a MaleShep, Miranda seems to be straight, but to a FemShep she is open to a relationship with another woman, but only if Shepard herself showed interest first.

That way, people who want it can have it, and those that don't, won't get anything coming their way from characters of the same gender that they don't want.

If they leave it to Shepard to show the initial interest, then surely nothing bad can come of it?

[hwman]

Add me to the list of people who are happy there is not an option for same-sex romances in mass effect. Most people are heterosexual. Why does everyone have to have the option of being gay?



Keep in mind with your responses and flames about my blatant homophobia or whatever that chances are I won't be back on this thread to see them anyways.

[Bamabamcz]

Metal-Dragon-Kiryu wrote...

I've always been of the opinion that all characters should be available for everyone.

People complain about "making everyone bisexual", but all they would need to do is structure the dialogue so that for example to a MaleShep, Miranda seems to be straight, but to a FemShep she is open to a relationship with another woman, but only if Shepard herself showed interest first.

That way, people who want it can have it, and those that don't, won't get anything coming their way from characters of the same gender that they don't want.

If they leave it to Shepard to show the initial interest, then surely nothing bad can come of it?

I agree, this is probably the most reasonable and possible solution to this.

While I see the point that Bioware wanted to make Shepard more developed character than say your Dragon Age character, I'd still preffer if the option was there. It's always better to have something and not use it then miss something and have people complaining about it

[SimonTheFrog]

hwman wrote...

Add me to the list of people who are happy there is not an option for same-sex romances in mass effect. Most people are heterosexual. Why does everyone have to have the option of being gay?

Keep in mind with your responses and flames about my blatant homophobia or whatever that chances are I won't be back on this thread to see them anyways.

Well, thanks for the bump, then. 

Edit: there are also options for skin colors that are a minority among the players. Hair color too (how many have bright red hair?). There are options to date aliens... options options options...

That's what this is about.

And to answer your question with another question: why not?

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 31 mars 2010 - 04:58 .

[hwman]

The whole idea behind having options for shepherd in a 3rd person narrative is that all of your possible actions / dialog fits into possible things shepherd would choose from. I don't want there to be options in all the dialog where I can hit on same-sex crew mates because shepherd is not homosexual.



Yes, Bioware does a good job of advancing modern social causes in their games and I am not opposed to them having gay characters, but they don't need to make it so that everyone can be gay.

[Bamabamcz]

hwman wrote...

The whole idea behind having options for shepherd in a 3rd person narrative is that all of your possible actions / dialog fits into possible things shepherd would choose from. I don't want there to be options in all the dialog where I can hit on same-sex crew mates because shepherd is not homosexual.

Yes, Bioware does a good job of advancing modern social causes in their games and I am not opposed to them having gay characters, but they don't need to make it so that everyone can be gay.

....I thought you said you won't be back

[OrbitalWings]

Bamabamcz wrote...

I agree, this is probably the most reasonable and possible solution to this.

While I see the point that Bioware wanted to make Shepard more developed character than say your Dragon Age character, I'd still preffer if the option was there. It's always better to have something and not use it then miss something and have people complaining about it

I think the main source of arguments about this is that those that don't want same-sex romances seem to think that characters of the same gender are going to throw themselves at Shepard, and they "don't want gay in their game".

While I disagree with that view, I understand the reasoning behind a mainstream game not wanting to offend anyone. I think the Garrus romance option is a good example of how it should be impliment - a simple 2-choice dialogue wheel option - one shows romantic interest, the other doesn't.

If romantic interest isn't shown, then the character will not make any signs of liking Shepard in that way. If romance interest is shown, then they will behave the same way they would with a Shepard of the opposite gender.

That way, those that don't want the content don't have to see it, and those that do, can. Simple.

[SimonTheFrog]

hwman wrote...

The whole idea behind having options for shepherd in a 3rd person narrative is that all of your possible actions / dialog fits into possible things shepherd would choose from. I don't want there to be options in all the dialog where I can hit on same-sex crew mates because shepherd is not homosexual.

Yes, Bioware does a good job of advancing modern social causes in their games and I am not opposed to them having gay characters, but they don't need to make it so that everyone can be gay.

What do you mean by "everyone can be gay"?
You mean crewmates? That's not what people around here want. Not everybody should be gay... 
In case you mean Shepard, there are many things that the player may chose, why not his/her mode of attraction? What's wrong with that? And don't tell me "because he ain't gay"... that's not an argument in a rpg with a sandbox character.

[SimonTheFrog]

Metal-Dragon-Kiryu wrote...

Bamabamcz wrote...

I agree, this is probably the most reasonable and possible solution to this.

While I see the point that Bioware wanted to make Shepard more developed character than say your Dragon Age character, I'd still preffer if the option was there. It's always better to have something and not use it then miss something and have people complaining about it

I think the main source of arguments about this is that those that don't want same-sex romances seem to think that characters of the same gender are going to throw themselves at Shepard, and they "don't want gay in their game".

While I disagree with that view, I understand the reasoning behind a mainstream game not wanting to offend anyone. I think the Garrus romance option is a good example of how it should be impliment - a simple 2-choice dialogue wheel option - one shows romantic interest, the other doesn't.

If romantic interest isn't shown, then the character will not make any signs of liking Shepard in that way. If romance interest is shown, then they will behave the same way they would with a Shepard of the opposite gender.

That way, those that don't want the content don't have to see it, and those that do, can. Simple.

Yes, it would be really simple. That's the fun part about it 

[Servo to the bitter end]

hwman wrote...

The whole idea behind having options for shepherd in a 3rd person narrative is that all of your possible actions / dialog fits into possible things shepherd would choose from. I don't want there to be options in all the dialog where I can hit on same-sex crew mates because shepherd is not homosexual.

Yes, Bioware does a good job of advancing modern social causes in their games and I am not opposed to them having gay characters, but they don't need to make it so that everyone can be gay.

See bolded - this is already debunked in the game.

It's possible that your Shepard is not homosexual - that doesn't mean that Shepard cannot be.  Again, for FemShep players, it's possible to unambiguously identify as either bisexual or homosexual. 

As Simonthefrog says, no one wants every single crew member or character you interact with to be gay or bisexual.  But Shepard is your character - you exercise a huge amount of control over the character's personal history as well as the way s/he reacts to the situations in the game.  It's possible to have define Sheperds sexuality for FemShep players.  It isn't for MShep players.  Why?

[Maria Caliban]

TommyServo wrote...
Again, for FemShep players, it's possible to unambiguously identify as either bisexual or homosexual.

I'm going to disagree here. There's no way for a FemShep to 'unambigiuously' identify as gay. The player can decide she's gay and have a relationship they see as being same-sex, but that's not the same thing.

[hwman]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

hwman wrote...

The whole idea behind having options for shepherd in a 3rd person narrative is that all of your possible actions / dialog fits into possible things shepherd would choose from. I don't want there to be options in all the dialog where I can hit on same-sex crew mates because shepherd is not homosexual.

Yes, Bioware does a good job of advancing modern social causes in their games and I am not opposed to them having gay characters, but they don't need to make it so that everyone can be gay.

What do you mean by "everyone can be gay"?
You mean crewmates? That's not what people around here want. Not everybody should be gay... 
In case you mean Shepard, there are many things that the player may chose, why not his/her mode of attraction? What's wrong with that? And don't tell me "because he ain't gay"... that's not an argument in a rpg with a sandbox character.

Ok I did come back.  I think your last line about the sandbox character isn't really accurate.  In the realm of sandbox rpg's, mass effect is a pretty small sandbox.  If the game was so detailed and elaborate that you could truly  have shepard do anything you wanted except have same-sex relationships, than I would agree with a lot of the points on this thread.

The fact is though that you can't have shepard do whatever you want.  You can't go AWOL and kill everyone on the normandy.  You can't crash your ship into the side of a planet.  You can't walk around the citadel and start romances with anyone walking down the street.  You can't have shepard sit down and watch television.  There is an endless list of things that you cannot have shepard do because 1) it is a game with limited resources put behind it, and 2) they don't fit with the character.

I bet if you asked anyone at bioware if shepard was gay they would say no.  If you asked them if the main character in dragon age is gay, they would say depends on how you play the game.  I agree with the above post that having a female shep romancing an asari doesn't really equal the same thing as a same-sex relationship.  Having some options in what you say / do / where you go doesn't mean that you are playing on a blank canvas.

I just think if bioware were to put more effort into improving something about the game, it is my personal opinion that with some romances already built into the game, and the fact that relationships are such a small part of the game, that time and money would be better spent on something else.  Admittedly this argument doesn't do much for the question of why not maybe change one opposite-sex relationship for a same-sex relationship during development of the game because that wouldn't add any time/money to development.  I think it does address the whole notion of developing a patch to enable these ideas.

As for having no mention of other gay characters in the mass effect games I don't really see this as a problem.  Do people feel the need to walk around telling everyone their sexual orientation?  The fact is the only people who you know at least some of their sexual preferences are are the people you can romance in the game.  So does that mean everyone else in the game is heterosexual because they're not running around screaming that they're gay? No.  I just don't see how labeling random characters by their sexual orientation would develop and further the game.

Once again, just my opinions.

Modifié par hwman, 31 mars 2010 - 05:55 .

[Servo to the bitter end]

Maria Caliban wrote...

TommyServo wrote...
Again, for FemShep players, it's possible to unambiguously identify as either bisexual or homosexual.

I'm going to disagree here. There's no way for a FemShep to 'unambigiuously' identify as gay. The player can decide she's gay and have a relationship they see as being same-sex, but that's not the same thing.

Bah.  I'm at work, so I can't fire up the game and actually check out the dialog, and I can't find a link to a youtube video or a transcript.  Perhaps someone else who remembers it or has a link can help out?

I'm almost certain that both Shepards have dialog where they concretely express their orientation to other characters, while rejecting them (ie, Mark Meer voiced the later cut assertion that he "only likes men," while Jen Hale has similar put downs).  My memory isn't perfect though, and it's entirely possible that I'm wrong.  If i'm right, FemShep telling Kaidan to his face that she's not interested in men (or vice versa to Liara) would be a  pretty unambiguous declaration. 

Even if I'm wrong though, it doesn't really make a difference - you can still embark on a romantic and sexual relationship with Liara.  Nitpickers may say it's "not a lesbian relationship because Liara isn't human" but that still means that the "Jane Shepard" romancing her would probably identify bisexual or homosexual.

Edit:  There's still the troublesome reality of Kelly as well.  A "Jane" that shacks up with her would still, at the very least, be bi.

Modifié par TommyServo, 31 mars 2010 - 06:10 .

[Temper_Graniteskul]

hwman wrote...

Add me to the list of people who are happy there is not an option for same-sex romances in mass effect. Most people are heterosexual. Why does everyone have to have the option of being gay?

Why does everyone have to be straight? Or Alliance, for that matter? Most people in the world aren't members of the military.

One of the enjoyable aspects of videogames is that it's 'come as you aren't.' I don't have to be a man to enjoy playing a male character, and I don't have to be gay to enjoy playing a character that has the possibility of same-sex romance. I also don't have to be gay to recognize that people who are would like to see something of themselves reflected in the game, to be treated on par with straight people, and to not be invisible. In a world where xenophilic relationships are an
option - with Liara, Tali, and Garrus - that doesn't seem particularly out of line.

The whole idea behind having options for shepherd in a 3rd person narrative is that all of your possible actions
/ dialog fits into possible things shepherd would choose from. I don't want there to be options in all the dialog where I can hit on same-sex crew mates because shepherd is not homosexual.

Why not? Just because the option is there doesn't mean you have to choose it. Like Paragon/Renegade - if I play Paragon and don't like Renegade, I just don't choose the Renegade option. Why should it be invisible just because I don't like it? Other people do and would like to choose it; it's nothing to me if they want to play the game in a way that I don't. It's not like any of us are playing it wrong or anything.

Yes, Bioware does a good job of advancing modern social causes in their games and I am not opposed to them having gay characters, but they don't need to make it so that everyone can be gay.

No one's particularly arguing for that, though several people (like myself) have wondered why exactly that would be so problematic. I find it hard to believe that half your potential crew is willing to sleep with you at all, much less that almost every possible relationship would be based on a conventionally straight sexual orientation. Still, what most people are asking for is equal representation for m/m, and some well-written romance in general, with at least one option for everyone.

Though I'm not quite sure how you're not opposed to them having gay characters, when you've said that you don't want Shep to be gay. By which I assume you mean MShep - FemShep's sapphic romances seem to slip below the radar. You've also said you don't want characters that are labeled by their sexuality - but how would that be different for gay characters when it'd likely be implemented the same as with the straight ones? You'd get to hear their backstory, and the only difference is that (for example) instead of having a wife or girlfriend, a male character might mention a boyfriend or husband instead. Mentioning a context that highlights their sexuality is not 'labeling' any more with gay people than it is with straight ones; if you're going to object to one, it's only fair you object to all of them.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 31 mars 2010 - 06:26 .

[Servo to the bitter end]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
It's not like any of us are playing it wrong or anything.

If the "Third Person Narrative" fluff quote is taken literally, then most of us are.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

TommyServo wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
It's not like any of us are playing it wrong or anything.

If the "Third Person Narrative" fluff quote is taken literally, then most of us are.

Well dammit, if they wanted Kyle Shepard to shoot Wrex and save Ashley on Virmire, they should have bloody well said. I'm not a mind reader.<_<

Shepard: 'Talk to Wrex'
Bioware: You have chosen 'Shoot Wrex'
Shepard: What? Cancel. 'Talk to Wrex'
Bioware: You have chosen 'Shoot Wrex' *Blam*
Shepard: Son of a b!tch!

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 31 mars 2010 - 06:35 .

[FataliTensei]

[quote]Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

[quote]hwman wrote...

Add me to the list of people who are happy there is not an option for same-sex romances in mass effect. Most people are heterosexual. Why does everyone have to have the option of being gay?[/quote]
Why does everyone have to be straight? Or Alliance, for that matter? Most people in the world aren't members of the military.

One of the enjoyable aspects of videogames is that it's 'come as you aren't.' I don't have to be a man to enjoy playing a male character, and I don't have to be gay to enjoy playing a character that has the possibility of same-sex romance. I also don't have to be gay to recognize that people who are would like to see something of themselves reflected in the game, to be treated on par with straight people, and to not be invisible. In a world where xenophilic relationships are an
option - with Liara, Tali, and Garrus - that doesn't seem particularly out of line.

[quote]

Yeah and the fact that Xenophilic relationships with Tali and Garrus...can..ya know...harm you, kinda doesn't make sense to include relationships that can harm you but exclude ones that could happen to be with members of your own species but just a different sex

[FataliTensei]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
It's not like any of us are playing it wrong or anything.

If the "Third Person Narrative" fluff quote is taken literally, then most of us are.

Well dammit, if they wanted Kyle Shepard to shoot Wrex and save Ashley on Virmire, they should have bloody well said. I'm not a mind reader.<_<

Shepard: 'Talk to Wrex'
Bioware: You have chosen 'Shoot Wrex'
Shepard: What? Cancel. 'Talk to Wrex'
Bioware: You have chosen 'Shoot Wrex' *Blam*
Shepard: Son of a b!tch!

That annoyed me, i wanted to start a new character on ME2 but when i saw that my choices were made for me I just decided to play through ME1 again, lol, which i actually enjoy more than ME2

[Temper_Graniteskul]

FataliTensei wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

hwman wrote...

Add me to the list of people who are happy there is not an option for same-sex romances in mass effect. Most people are heterosexual. Why does everyone have to have the option of being gay?

Why does everyone have to be straight? Or Alliance, for that matter? Most people in the world aren't members of the military.

One of the enjoyable aspects of videogames is that it's 'come as you aren't.' I don't have to be a man to enjoy playing a male character, and I don't have to be gay to enjoy playing a character that has the possibility of same-sex romance. I also don't have to be gay to recognize that people who are would like to see something of themselves reflected in the game, to be treated on par with straight people, and to not be invisible. In a world where xenophilic relationships are an
option - with Liara, Tali, and Garrus - that doesn't seem particularly out of line.

Yeah and the fact that Xenophilic relationships with Tali and Garrus...can..ya know...harm you, kinda doesn't make sense to include relationships that can harm you but exclude ones that could happen to be with members of your own species but just a different sex

Yeah. Funny as it was that FemShep effectively assigned Garrus homework, you have to wonder - they're willing to go with an LI that needs to do a mini research project to consummate the relationship, but can't be bothered to let MShep/FemShep so much as hit on Jacob/Miranda respectively? Weak.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 31 mars 2010 - 06:48 .

[The Knights who say Ni]

Is Sheppard strait or gay is going to depend on the person playing the game. To state that the majority of people are going to say that Sheppard is straight is unfounded. I'm a straight guy playing a female character who has a relationship with Liara. Why? Well I like looking at females more than guys, I don't really like any of the character builds for the male characters, and I think the female voice acting is superior to the male voice acting. Also much like Joss Wheadon I believe we should have more female heroes in movies, comics, games and so forth.



I also have my femShep pursue female relationships with women because I'm not that interested in hitting on guys, eventhough it's just a game. However, I have no problem with any relationship anyone wants to have their character pursue. Years ago on Star Trek TNG Tasha Yar had sex with Data, an android. Did that make her perverted because she made out with a machine? Of course not it was a story device to show Yar in a more emotional light.



The simple fact is that above everything else Mass Effect is a role playing game. If I want my character to role play having a relationship with a volus to the geth the options should be there. Mass Effect is not your game or my game but our game. Therefore, as many options for gameplay enjoyability should be present to make it as appealing to as many people as possible. Just because an option is there to have a particular relationship does not mean you have to exercise it. Otherwise by saying that you are not interested in having gay relationships in the game because you don't like it would be the same as me saying that I don't believe in extra-marital affairs and therefore Sheppard shouldn't be having sex with anyone in the game unless he/she is getting married (I don't by the way). Nonetheless, if I did I would be representing a particular group of people not everyone who plays the game, yet I would have the option of not pursuing a relationship if I decided to exercise it.



Having the option there does not make one gay by association. Rather it simply adds to the suspension of disbelief and role-playing world if those choices exist for those who choose to exercise them.