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[hwman]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

hwman wrote...

Add me to the list of people who are happy there is not an option for same-sex romances in mass effect. Most people are heterosexual. Why does everyone have to have the option of being gay?

Why does everyone have to be straight? Or Alliance, for that matter? Most people in the world aren't members of the military.

One of the enjoyable aspects of videogames is that it's 'come as you aren't.' I don't have to be a man to enjoy playing a male character, and I don't have to be gay to enjoy playing a character that has the possibility of same-sex romance. I also don't have to be gay to recognize that people who are would like to see something of themselves reflected in the game, to be treated on par with straight people, and to not be invisible. In a world where xenophilic relationships are an
option - with Liara, Tali, and Garrus - that doesn't seem particularly out of line.

The whole idea behind having options for shepherd in a 3rd person narrative is that all of your possible actions
/ dialog fits into possible things shepherd would choose from. I don't want there to be options in all the dialog where I can hit on same-sex crew mates because shepherd is not homosexual.

Why not? Just because the option is there doesn't mean you have to choose it. Like Paragon/Renegade - if I play Paragon and don't like Renegade, I just don't choose the Renegade option. Why should it be invisible just because I don't like it? Other people do and would like to choose it; it's nothing to me if they want to play the game in a way that I don't. It's not like any of us are playing it wrong or anything.

Yes, Bioware does a good job of advancing modern social causes in their games and I am not opposed to them having gay characters, but they don't need to make it so that everyone can be gay.

No one's particularly arguing for that, though several people (like myself) have wondered why exactly that would be so problematic. I find it hard to believe that half your potential crew is willing to sleep with you at all, much less that almost every possible relationship would be based on a conventionally straight sexual orientation. Still, what most people are asking for is equal representation for m/m, and some well-written romance in general, with at least one option for everyone.

Though I'm not quite sure how you're not opposed to them having gay characters, when you've said that you don't want Shep to be gay. By which I assume you mean MShep - FemShep's sapphic romances seem to slip below the radar. You've also said you don't want characters that are labeled by their sexuality - but how would that be different for gay characters when it'd likely be implemented the same as with the straight ones? You'd get to hear their backstory, and the only difference is that (for example) instead of having a wife or girlfriend, a male character might mention a boyfriend or husband instead. Mentioning a context that highlights their sexuality is not 'labeling' any more with gay people than it is with straight ones; if you're going to object to one, it's only fair you object to all of them.

See bold.  That's the point I'm trying to make.  In ME2 you have 3 different people you can romance with.  If you did a random sampling of America, or the whole world, or anywhere, there is a greater chance that the three people you polled would be heterosexual, than any of the 3 people being any combination of lgbt.  So my point is that if there are tons of people you could have a possible romance with than yes, to be more realistic some of those should have mixed sexual orientation.  If there are less than a handful of options, it would be less realistic to think that half of the possible romances in the world are homosexual/bisexual.

[Mimaiselphenai]

The whole idea behind having options for shepherd in a 3rd person narrative is that all of your possible actions

/ dialog fits into possible things shepherd would choose from. I don't want there to be options in all the dialog where I can hit on same-sex crew mates because shepherd is not homosexual.

This argument is getting a little old. By "things Shepard would choose from," I assume you mean default Shepard? In which case, where is it written that the choices you make are directly related to things he would do? If that were true, then what would be the point in playing a custom Shepard at all? Why even give players the option? To give them the ability to play as their own character, that's why.

Even if I'm wrong though, it doesn't really make a difference - you can still embark on a romantic and sexual relationship with Liara. Nitpickers may say it's "not a lesbian relationship because Liara isn't human" but that still means that the "Jane Shepard" romancing her would probably identify bisexual or homosexual.

Not to mention the fact that one of the romance dialog options with Liara for a male Shepard is "but you're an alien!" and "but you're female!" for a female Shepard. I'm pretty sure, at least. If the fact they look like women, act like women, and talk like women isn't enough proof that Asari are for all intents and purposes FEMALE to the nitpickers, maybe that'll help.

[LiquidGrape]

It's funny how the arguments opposed more often than not boils down to "they don't seem bi/homosexual".

hwman wrote...
See bold. That's the point I'm trying to make. In ME2 you have 3 different people you can romance with. If you did a random sampling of America, or the whole world, or anywhere, there is a greater chance that the three people you polled would be heterosexual, than any of the 3 people being any combination of lgbt.  So my point is that if there are tons of people you could have a possible romance with than yes, to be more realistic some of those should have mixed sexual orientation.  If there are less than a handful of options, it would be less realistic to think that half of the possible romances in the world are homosexual/bisexual.

But how does that apply to a fictional microcosmos which is supposed to entertain and speak to as wide a demographic as possible?

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 31 mars 2010 - 07:05 .

[Servo to the bitter end]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...
Not to mention the fact that one of the romance dialog options with Liara for a male Shepard is "but you're an alien!" and "but you're female!" for a female Shepard. I'm pretty sure, at least. If the fact they look like women, act like women, and talk like women isn't enough proof that Asari are for all intents and purposes FEMALE to the nitpickers, maybe that'll help.

For that, I like directing the nitpickers to the in-game codex, where it says this:

However, in the Codex it is stated that the asari are an all-female race. The Galactic Codex: Essentials Edition 2183
says that "while asari have only one gender, they are not asexual like
single-celled life—all asari are sexually female", and according to
Liara they also have maternal instincts.

[Mimaiselphenai]

hwman wrote...
See bold.  That's the point I'm trying to make.  In ME2 you have 3 different people you can romance with.  If you did a random sampling of America, or the whole world, or anywhere, there is a greater chance that the three people you polled would be heterosexual, than any of the 3 people being any combination of lgbt.  So my point is that if there are tons of people you could have a possible romance with than yes, to be more realistic some of those should have mixed sexual orientation.  If there are less than a handful of options, it would be less realistic to think that half of the possible romances in the world are homosexual/bisexual.

You do realize you're trying to bring "real life statistics" into a game where you can have sex with aliens and the hero of the story comes back from the dead, right? Would it really sour your playing experience knowing that it's possible to romance any character in the game as any gender, even though it's entirely in your power? As mentioned above, that's not what the majority of people here are asking for, but what's the issue other than "statistically more characters would be straight rather than gay?" Statistically Shepard and his/her entire crew would be dead by now.

[Siansonea]

I think one issue is that people tend to think of their sexuality as their identity. I think this is rather odd. One's identity is comprised of a multitude of things, sexuality being only one of them. So to say that Shepard is gay, straight, bisexual or whatever is really beside the point. Shepard is Shepard, and the relationships he or she chooses to pursue are simply another aspect of his or her whole personality. I think it is a mistake to place one's core identity within the confines of something as limiting as gender, species, ethnicity, sexuality or belief system. We are all much more complex than that, and presumably, so is Shepard.



If Shepard wants to pursue a relationship with a male human, a female human, or an alien of any gender, Shepard should have that opportunity, regardless of Shepard's own gender. To limit these options in any way is tacitly but unequivocally stating that there is something wrong with the omitted options.

[Wittand25]

hwman wrote...
See bold.  That's the point I'm trying to make.  In ME2 you have 3 different people you can romance with.  If you did a random sampling of America, or the whole world, or anywhere, there is a greater chance that the three people you polled would be heterosexual, than any of the 3 people being any combination of lgbt.  So my point is that if there are tons of people you could have a possible romance with than yes, to be more realistic some of those should have mixed sexual orientation.  If there are less than a handful of options, it would be less realistic to think that half of the possible romances in the world are homosexual/bisexual.

It is actually more likely than the fact that out of seven possible female squadmembers in both ME!+2 all are sexually intrested in a male Shepard and only one of them has the selfcontrol to keep her hands of him.

Modifié par Wittand25, 31 mars 2010 - 07:06 .

[Mimaiselphenai]

Siansonea II wrote...

I think one issue is that people tend to think of their sexuality as their identity. I think this is rather odd. One's identity is comprised of a multitude of things, sexuality being only one of them. So to say that Shepard is gay, straight, bisexual or whatever is really beside the point. Shepard is Shepard, and the relationships he or she chooses to pursue are simply another aspect of his or her whole personality. I think it is a mistake to place one's core identity within the confines of something as limiting as gender, species, ethnicity, sexuality or belief system. We are all much more complex than that, and presumably, so is Shepard.

If Shepard wants to pursue a relationship with a male human, a female human, or an alien of any gender, Shepard should have that opportunity, regardless of Shepard's own gender. To limit these options in any way is tacitly but unequivocally stating that there is something wrong with the omitted options.

That's a bit beyond the scope of the average gamer. Or rather the average heterosexual male gamer, because let's face it, that's the majority of those opposed to the idea of male/male romances in the game.  I say male/male since I'm fairly confident lesbian pairings slip right on by for the most part.

[Siansonea]

TommyServo wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...
Not to mention the fact that one of the romance dialog options with Liara for a male Shepard is "but you're an alien!" and "but you're female!" for a female Shepard. I'm pretty sure, at least. If the fact they look like women, act like women, and talk like women isn't enough proof that Asari are for all intents and purposes FEMALE to the nitpickers, maybe that'll help.

For that, I like directing the nitpickers to the in-game codex, where it says this:

However, in the Codex it is stated that the asari are an all-female race. The Galactic Codex: Essentials Edition 2183
says that "while asari have only one gender, they are not asexual like
single-celled life—all asari are sexually female", and according to
Liara they also have maternal instincts.

Asari can bear young and suckle them, they are females. Is this really still being debated? One merely has to glance at asari to determine that they are mammals, and female mammals. That their species does not have males does not take away from the fact that they are females. They reproduce by a variant form of hybridogenesis/parthenogenesis in which the father organism participates in reproduction but does not contribute genetic material. The father of an asari child merely helps the asari mother randomize the other half of the genome, which originates with the asari mother.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Siansonea II wrote...

Asari can bear young and suckle them, they are females. Is this really still being debated?

The forehead shaped dents in my desk say that yes, a lot of people still think it's up for debate.

[jlb524]

hwman wrote...

The fact is though that you can't have shepard do whatever you want.  You can't go AWOL and kill everyone on the normandy.  You can't crash your ship into the side of a planet.  You can't walk around the citadel and start romances with anyone walking down the street.  You can't have shepard sit down and watch television.  There is an endless list of things that you cannot have shepard do because 1) it is a game with limited resources put behind it, and 2) they don't fit with the character.

The options you mentioned would take the main story in unbelievable directions, or would be difficult for BW to implement all of them.  Romances have no effect on the main plot and implementing same-sex romances (when six straight ones are already implemented) is not difficult.

I bet if you asked anyone at bioware if shepard was gay they would say no.  If you asked them if the main character in dragon age is gay, they would say depends on how you play the game.

What Shepard?  The default marketing Shepard or one of the many Shepards that exist throughout the world in the minds of many gamers?  Ask BW if Shepard is male...would the say yes or no?

I just think if bioware were to put more effort into improving something about the game, it is my personal opinion that with some romances already built into the game, and the fact that relationships are such a small part of the game, that time and money would be better spent on something else.  Admittedly this argument doesn't do much for the question of why not maybe change one opposite-sex relationship for a same-sex relationship during development of the game because that wouldn't add any time/money to development.  I think it does address the whole notion of developing a patch to enable these ideas.

You may think romances don't add much to the game, which is fine, but BW still takes the time to implement them in game.   Again, they added six new straight romances to ME2, more romances than any of their previous games.  Romances are obviouisly a huge deal to them.  Why couldn't they have made one of the three males open to Male Shepard and one of the three females open to FemShepard?  It wouldn't have taken that much more effort, especially considering that some of the same-sex romance dialog is already recorded and these files can be found by PC ME players.

Modifié par jlb524, 31 mars 2010 - 07:17 .

[Siansonea]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I think one issue is that people tend to think of their sexuality as their identity. I think this is rather odd. One's identity is comprised of a multitude of things, sexuality being only one of them. So to say that Shepard is gay, straight, bisexual or whatever is really beside the point. Shepard is Shepard, and the relationships he or she chooses to pursue are simply another aspect of his or her whole personality. I think it is a mistake to place one's core identity within the confines of something as limiting as gender, species, ethnicity, sexuality or belief system. We are all much more complex than that, and presumably, so is Shepard.

If Shepard wants to pursue a relationship with a male human, a female human, or an alien of any gender, Shepard should have that opportunity, regardless of Shepard's own gender. To limit these options in any way is tacitly but unequivocally stating that there is something wrong with the omitted options.

That's a bit beyond the scope of the average gamer. Or rather the average heterosexual male gamer, because let's face it, that's the majority of those opposed to the idea of male/male romances in the game.  I say male/male since I'm fairly confident lesbian pairings slip right on by for the most part.

Yes, there is remarkably little outcry against female/female romance options. The Female Shepard/Liara pairing, and the Female Shepard/Kelly Chambers pairing are clearly lesbian relationships, questions of species notwithstanding.

I know that many purchasers of this game are young males, and this would explain much of the resistance to male/male pairings. Disclaiming homophobia does not negate the very obvious expression of it, insisting that this one romance option be omitted for any reason cannot be explained away 'rationally'. I believe Bioware doesn't really care one way or the other about Shepard's sexuality, but has omitted male/male pairings so as not to alienate this demographic of players, which doubtless comprises the majority of their consumers. It is unfortunate, but probably a sound business decision on Bioware's part.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

hwman wrote...

See bold.  That's the point I'm trying to make.  In ME2 you have 3 different people you can romance with.  If you did a random sampling of America, or the whole world, or anywhere, there is a greater chance that the three people you polled would be heterosexual, than any of the 3 people being any combination of lgbt.  So my point is that if there are tons of people you could have a possible romance with than yes, to be more realistic some of those should have mixed sexual orientation.  If there are less than a handful of options, it would be less realistic to think that half of the possible romances in the world are homosexual/bisexual.

How is realism an argument? FemShep can have a relationship with an alien that strongly resembles a bird of prey of some sort or a lizard that looks like a green Abe Sapien. She can carry a gun that looks like it'd cause her arms to snap off. Half the recruitable crew is willing to have sex with their commander! And two more words: Lazarus Project. How is any of that 'realistic'?

This is why when people cry 'it's not realistic to have everybody gay/bi,' I keep reading 'I don't like gay options, don't want any gay options, but can't think of a reason other than I don't like or want them.' And you don't need a reason - if people don't like it and don't want it, then they don't like it and don't want it. Simple. Just please stop trying to use realism as a reason why it shouldn't happen for the people who do.

Videogames are escapist and at their very basic level not very realistic at all, particularly where it comes to party members and crew composition. If everyone can suspend their disbelief that four of six interactable female NPCs are all ready, willing, and able to bed their commander, I fail to see how one or two f/f and m/m options are so much more of a strain.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 31 mars 2010 - 07:35 .

[Mimaiselphenai]

Siansonea II wrote...

I know that many purchasers of this game are young males, and this would explain much of the resistance to male/male pairings. Disclaiming homophobia does not negate the very obvious expression of it, insisting that this one romance option be omitted for any reason cannot be explained away 'rationally'. I believe Bioware doesn't really care one way or the other about Shepard's sexuality, but has omitted male/male pairings so as not to alienate this demographic of players, which doubtless comprises the majority of their consumers. It is unfortunate, but probably a sound business decision on Bioware's part.

I would agree with you, but then that doesn't explain why it's entirely possible to have a male/male relationship in Dragon Age. Are there more insecure males playing Mass Effect than Dragon Age? I think it might also have a little to do with Bioware not wanting to "sully"  their most valued franchise, but that's just my cynicism talking.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Oh, and to whoever said that romances are an insignificant part of the game, I don't think that's entirely true. Obviously they aren't the most important aspect, but I have to say I like the way the Garrus romance went. And it made me appreciate him more when he pulled his weight during the suicide mission. So it does add flavor to the game in general.

[Siansonea]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I know that many purchasers of this game are young males, and this would explain much of the resistance to male/male pairings. Disclaiming homophobia does not negate the very obvious expression of it, insisting that this one romance option be omitted for any reason cannot be explained away 'rationally'. I believe Bioware doesn't really care one way or the other about Shepard's sexuality, but has omitted male/male pairings so as not to alienate this demographic of players, which doubtless comprises the majority of their consumers. It is unfortunate, but probably a sound business decision on Bioware's part.

I would agree with you, but then that doesn't explain why it's entirely possible to have a male/male relationship in Dragon Age. Are there more insecure males playing Mass Effect than Dragon Age? I think it might also have a little to do with Bioware not wanting to "sully"  their most valued franchise, but that's just my cynicism talking.

This is an open question. I do not own Dragon Age, and do not know how the romance options are explored or implemented. It could be that because of the way it is implemented, it is less objectionable to anti-gay players of that game.

And your point about Bioware isn't cynical, the Mass Effect franchise and associated intellectual property is extremely valuable, so anything controversial must be evaluated with caution. It would be irresponsible to do otherwise, and Bioware shouldn't be censured for keeping their eye on the bottom line. They are a company that wishes to make money, and their products should be optimized to maximize profitability, rather than tailored to a minority of consumers who likely will purchase the game for its other merits anyway. It is far more likely that a person will NOT purchase the game because male/male relationships are possible, I speculate that few would not purchase the game because those pairings aren't an option. Homophobia is much stronger than homophilia, in situations like these.

[jlb524]

If the game was 'realistic' it would be hella boring! The fact that every female on the crew wants to have sex with Male Shepard is unrealistic. How realistic is it that two female aliens want Shepard? How realistic is it that two human women who have the exact opposite personalities and backgrounds (Miranda and Jack) happen to have the same taste in men? It may not be 'realistic' but who cares? It's fun and adds to the replayability of the game. That's why all of those options are there.

[Siansonea]

I would also state that romances are a significant portion of the game, as are all the interactions Shepard has with people. For me, the 'role-playing' element of the game supersedes combat in importance, and is second only to the overall story in importance. Once again I stress that these criteria are my own personal opinion, others will have different criteria.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Siansonea II wrote...
They are a company that wishes to make money, and their products should be optimized to maximize profitability, rather than tailored to a minority of consumers who likely will purchase the game for its other merits anyway. It is far more likely that a person will NOT purchase the game because male/male relationships are possible, I speculate that few would not purchase the game because those pairings aren't an option. Homophobia is much stronger than homophilia, in situations like these.

Good point. I suspected as much myself. Obviously they aren't still "feeling the waters" as there's only one game left in the series. It's a shame that a company has to play to the reservations of some of its fans (albeit the majority) instead of opening its games to interpretation for all, but I suppose it's hard to fault them for making the safe move.

[Cootie]

jlb524 wrote...

If the game was 'realistic' it would be hella boring! The fact that every female on the crew wants to have sex with Male Shepard is unrealistic. How realistic is it that two female aliens want Shepard? How realistic is it that two human women who have the exact opposite personalities and backgrounds (Miranda and Jack) happen to have the same taste in men? It may not be 'realistic' but who cares? It's fun and adds to the replayability of the game. That's why all of those options are there.

I might wanna' add that all of the women want to sleep with FemShep, as well. It's just that the Men In Black come in and flash their memories away once the flirting starts.

[Servo to the bitter end]

jlb524 wrote...

If the game was 'realistic' it would be hella boring!

Off-topic, but I watched someone playing Heavy Rain this weekend. 

"Press X to help put away the groceries."

Fun!

[Maria Caliban]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Oh, and to whoever said that romances are an insignificant part of the game, I don't think that's entirely true.

I don't think that's even a bit true, and BioWare has shown repeatedly they think the same: Romances are an important part of BioWare games.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Oh, and to whoever said that romances are an insignificant part of the game, I don't think that's entirely true.

I don't think that's even a bit true, and BioWare has shown repeatedly they think the same: Romances are an important part of BioWare games.

Well, I said "not entirely true" since the Mass Effect series is drawing in more action gamers. So it depends on your view. For RPGers or people just more interested in story, obviously it's an important part. Not so much for those more interested in combat, since romances don't really effect the game at all (unless romancing a character makes them more likely to survive the suicide mission).

[Siansonea]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
They are a company that wishes to make money, and their products should be optimized to maximize profitability, rather than tailored to a minority of consumers who likely will purchase the game for its other merits anyway. It is far more likely that a person will NOT purchase the game because male/male relationships are possible, I speculate that few would not purchase the game because those pairings aren't an option. Homophobia is much stronger than homophilia, in situations like these.

Good point. I suspected as much myself. Obviously they aren't still "feeling the waters" as there's only one game left in the series. It's a shame that a company has to play to the reservations of some of its fans (albeit the majority) instead of opening its games to interpretation for all, but I suppose it's hard to fault them for making the safe move.

I agree. While in a perfect world one of my male Shepard's would have the option to romance another male, the omission of this option doesn't ruin the game for me. I remain optimistic that a future DLC would address this, a paid DLC is the perfect method of delivering this content, especially if it comes with a warning. This would allow the consumers that want the content to have it, and allow the anti-gay consumers to opt out. Win-win.