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[Siansonea]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
One thing to remember is that including male/male LI options isn't just for gay people. I have multiple Shepards, male and female, and each one has a distinct personality. I would like the option of having a gay male Shepard for my group, even though I am a heterosexual female in 'real life'. That needs to be part of Bioware's decision-making equation.

Yes I think according to research that I have been told of anyway,  heterosexual females are a lot more likely to be open or experiement with such things versus heterosexual males.  I am a hetersexual male and I have not tried to romance any LI's with my femshep yet.  I thought about trying it and pretending to be the LI instead of femshep herself.  Pretending to be femshep and romancing a male is really weird and strange for me right now.  I don't know if I'll try it or not.

I guess I don't see any of my Shepards as an avatar of myself, but rather as third parties. It's much like playing a tabletop RPG where one's player character is very different from oneself (which I do often). I play from the character's point of view, not my own, and I find it pretty easy to take my own attitudes out of the equation. I have ultra-Paragon Shepards and ultra-Renegade Shepards, Shepards who romance only humans, Shepards who are alien-friendly, Shepards who are thorough, Shepards who take shortcuts. Sexuality is another spectrum that could allow for increased variability among my Shepards, and it would be nice to have as many options in this and other areas of the game as possible. There cannot be too many options as far as I'm concerned, because ultimately each Shepard chooses a single path.

Hmmm, that is interesting.  I never bothered to look at it from that perspective.  Just pretend that I am neither instead of choosing one.  I'll have to think about that.

It's a very fun way to play the game. I have six core Shepards that I play, one from each class, three males and three females. They run the gamut in attitudes, and I like to come up with a psychological profile of sorts for each character that guides their interactions, and even influences their actions in combat. Devon Shepard, my Paragon Vanguard, crosses all his 't's and dots all his 'i's, scans planets for resources, upgrades all his equipment, and does every Loyalty and N7 mission. Ashley Shepard, my Renegade Soldier, does only what is mission critical, and doesn't waste time with the niceties of social discourse or mollycoddling her team. My other Shepards fall between these two extremes, and each has a unique twist that makes them enjoyable and memorable for me.

I know that has very little to do with same-sex romance per se, but it illustrates how inclusion of these romance options can do more than just address the desires of gay people to have romance options that are relevant for themselves. For me, Mass Effect 2 is not one game, it's six games, and I want each one to be as fun and different from each of the other five as possible. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

[Siansonea]

Raanz wrote...

After 183 pages I am not sure if I even qualify to add to this discussion.  It's an interesting topic, one in which I wouldn't mind giving my two cents to, but even after reading the OP and multiple pages, I am still a little unclear what this is meant to accomplish.
Is the thread merly to opine on the subject, or to ask why Bioware didn't include homosexual relationships?

If Mass Effect 2 had included same sex relationships (I guess a meaningful one, as they have a superficial female/lesbian one in Kelly) I don't think I would have minded as I could have easily chosen not to participate in such a relationship.  So if the question is for opinions, mine is as mentioned.

Why they don't have them, well I will have to defer to one of the very early posts that quoted Ray Muzyka.  Honestly, that is the way I have always looked at it.  Both Mass Effect games for me, have been a story that I play one of the characters (as opposed to Dragon Age where I 'generate" MY character).  In doing so, the story is laid out in front of me with a few minor forks and decisions to make.  It's always been my opinion, that Bioware simply didn't want to portray any (or a good portion) of the characters in the story as homosexual, or with an option to be homosexual. Not saying it's good or bad, but that seems to be the direction they wanted to go with for the ME trilogy.
I know they are not entirely the same thing, but it would be a little similar to folks being upset that you can't play a female Gear in the Gears of War storyline.  In the end, it's the developer's story that they wish to tell.  The difference being that ME allows the players to impact that story on a very high level.  Unfortunately for players who like to roleplay their hero as a homosexual, Bioware would like to keep the hero of galaxy a heterosexual.

As for a solution, I don't see there being one as it's their story to tell.  I know it's a little disappointing to folks that would like to have the option, but that's the way it is.  I like ME and the fact that they do not include same sex relationships doesn't bother me...I enjoy the story.

This is an interesting point, my only question is why would this be the case? Why does Shepard's sexuality have any bearing on Shepard's mission or anything else in the game that isn't romance-related? Especially since Shepard's gender isn't even predetermined? Does the galaxy really care if its savior is homosexual? The game appears to allow a significant degree of customization of Shepard, who has no gender, race, religion, or even a first name when the opening credits roll. Why then is sexuality fixed?

The exclusion of an overtly homosexual romance option appears to imply that a homosexual Shepard would be in some way fundamentally different from a nominally heterosexual Shepard, enough so to render the majority of the story untenable. Is that really the message Bioware wishes to send?

Personally, I find it hard to believe that in 100 years, people are still going to care about homosexuality one way or the other, I like to think that as our species evolves, our differences become less of an issue. One's sexuality should be little more than an aspect of his or her life, not a structure around which to build one's entire identity. I'd like to think that in the future as seen in Mass Effect, being gay is simply not a big deal.

[RollaWarden]

Because Bioware has, I'll argue, blurred the distinctions between cinema and video gaming, creating interactive fiction, it's only natural that the devs--as they've done since SoA--incorporate romance into their stories, as an essential element that drives much great fiction. I firmly believe that one day we'll see Bioware universally hailed as the pioneer of an entirely new kind of interactive entertainment. Are not DA:O and ME on par with any great cinematic entertainment? And they offer the element of immersing the viewer IN the story, in which the viewer/player's actions determines the outcome. An extraordinary achievement.



I agree, therefore, that it's natural to include a way for all players, regardless of gender or orientation, to feel connected to the story in a way that is natural for them. Again, a supeior achievement.

[Raanz]

Siansonea II wrote...
This is an interesting point, my only question is why would this be the case? Why does Shepard's sexuality have any bearing on Shepard's mission or anything else in the game that isn't romance-related? Especially since Shepard's gender isn't even predetermined? Does the galaxy really care if its savior is homosexual? The game appears to allow a significant degree of customization of Shepard, who has no gender, race, religion, or even a first name when the opening credits roll. Why then is sexuality fixed?

The exclusion of an overtly homosexual romance option appears to imply that a homosexual Shepard would be in some way fundamentally different from a nominally heterosexual Shepard, enough so to render the majority of the story untenable. Is that really the message Bioware wishes to send?

Personally, I find it hard to believe that in 100 years, people are still going to care about homosexuality one way or the other, I like to think that as our species evolves, our differences become less of an issue. One's sexuality should be little more than an aspect of his or her life, not a structure around which to build one's entire identity. I'd like to think that in the future as seen in Mass Effect, being gay is simply not a big deal.

I don't think that Shepard's sexuality has any bearing on the story or any mission.  I think that is the point (if that makes sense).  Maybe Bioware's thoughts on it are:  "we have this cool story-driven game.  We allow players to pick to play good or not so good, but in the end, they still save the galaxy.  Ok, great." 
Well in their story, it just so happens that Shepard is a heterosexual (as was written). 
"Ok, so we allow Shepard to form relationships if the player so chooses with these 3 characters, and if they choose to stick with a character relationship they forged in the first part, we should throw them a bone."  Kelly, enter stage left.
I know this will probably not resonate with folks but let's say that there was a game, based on Star Wars.  One of the characters you could play is Han Solo.  As Han Solo you could pursue relationships with NPCs.  I'm pretty sure they wouldn't allow the player to pursue homosexual relationships with Han Solo.   All I am trying to get at is that in their story "Mass Effect", playing Shepard as a homosexual is not something they wanted.   I don't think it speaks to their views on the subject, I just think that is the direction they wanted to go.  They allow it other games where they feel that they have given the players an opportunity to mold their own character, I just don't think that ME is one of those games.

Modifié par Raanz, 01 avril 2010 - 10:30 .

[SirGladiator]

The different romance options definitely add a tremendous amount of replay value, they make everything much more fun and interesting. I always play as FemShep, and during my first playthrough I didn't bother jumping through any of the hoops required to do one of the 'main 3' romances, I just stuck with Ashley and romanced Kelly as well (I think I'll romance Kelly on every playthrough, particularly since there's no apparent downside anyway) . On my second playthrough I went sort of part renegade and pro-cerberus and romanced Miranda. On my current playthrough Im going even more renegade and I'm going to romance Jack, tentatively planning on being super-paragon for the next one and romancing Tali. Of course each character could be romanced as a paragon or renegade, so if the game holds my attention that long, I'll probably end up doing that . If there was no way for me to do the romances, I might've just done one playthrough and that would've been it (actually if there hadn't been a way to get around the lockout of the romances I just wouldn't have bought the game in the first place) . The romances make ALL the difference, they give you a real reason to do another run, to try things a different way, a reason to care.



When I played Fallout 3, which is obviously a somewhat similar game, there was no romance (or if there was it was sufficiently hidden that I never saw it) and I enjoyed the game, played it once, considered playing through again but really couldn't be bothered, its way too much trouble without an LI involved to make it interesting. I also never bothered buying any of the DLC, same basic reason. If they had some cool LIs in Fallout 3 I can pretty much guarantee I'd have bought all the DLC. So yeah, games can be plenty fun without LIs, but they add just a HUGE amount of replay value, which is another reason why we all want the romance DLC to put back the ME2 romances we like.

[Roelandtstorme]

If a homosexual is offended that a character or person is heterosexual, they are the one with the problem.  In the English languages, it's called Reverse Discrimination.  

I can't imagine any logcial resaon for Shepard to be, or even have the option to be a homosexual. It would be akin to complaining that he's not salarian or taurian. He just ain't, and it's okay. The OP's arguement is pointless. I regret responding.

Modifié par Roelandtstorme, 01 avril 2010 - 11:41 .

[Fade9wayz]

Ah, nothing about M/M romance options, but for those who were worried their previous LIs wouldn't be there in ME3: http://masseffectclu.../blog/31281670/

[Arik7]

Roelandtstorme wrote...

If a homosexual is offended that a character or person is heterosexual, they are the one with the problem.  In the English languages, it's called Reverse Discrimination.  

I can't imagine any logcial resaon for Shepard to be, or even have the option to be a homosexual. It would be akin to complaining that he's not salarian or taurian. He just ain't, and it's okay. The OP's arguement is pointless. I regret responding.

"He" or SHE is supposed to be YOUR custom character, as advertized by BioWare.  Salarians or Turians do not play Mass Effect, gay people do.  

[Fade9wayz]

Roelandtstorme wrote...

If a homosexual is offended that a character or person is heterosexual, they are the one with the problem.  In the English languages, it's called Reverse Discrimination.  

I can't imagine any logcial resaon for Shepard to be, or even have the option to be a homosexual. It would be akin to complaining that he's not salarian or taurian. He just ain't, and it's okay. The OP's arguement is pointless. I regret responding.

I take no offense in the fact that the character has the option to pursue heterosexual romances. I merely just find disappointing the male character does not have the option to engage in gay or bisexual romances if the player so choses while his female counterpart has it. And I can't imagine any logical reason for MShepard not to have this option too. If someone wants to complain about the inability to chose their race in ME, they can start a new thread about it.

Modifié par Fade9wayz, 02 avril 2010 - 12:33 .

[illerianna]

The main thing I don't get with the "it's a pre-determined story," deal is that...

I was sold the original ME under the premise of it was MY SHEPARD, MY STORY. Even the Steam description says "Customize your character and embark on a pulse-pounding adventure in an immersive open-ended storyline". Now, either that interview is full of ****, or I was lied to when I purchased the game.

If I had known it was another "lol it's a book that you're playing" thing, I would never have bought the game. If they decide to pull that whole "No, you can't do that because... Uhm... It wasn't designed that way! Right, right, yeah, we know it was advertised as an open-ended game, but Shepard isn't a **** lololololz," I'm going to throw a **** fit. Not just because I can't have a gay relationship, but because I apparently bought the game under false pretenses, read everything about it wrong, and played the game wrong.

I also recall one of the writers saying ME doesn't have "canon".

EDIT: linkie: http://meforums.biow...=144&highlight= (Just a copy and paste, don't want anyone thinking it's another spam redirect)

Ugh.

Modifié par illerianna, 02 avril 2010 - 12:59 .

[Servo to the bitter end]

Roelandtstorme wrote...

If a homosexual is offended that a character or person is heterosexual, they are the one with the problem.  In the English languages, it's called Reverse Discrimination.  

I can't imagine any logcial resaon for Shepard to be, or even have the option to be a homosexual. It would be akin to complaining that he's not salarian or taurian. He just ain't, and it's okay. The OP's arguement is pointless. I regret responding.

No one expects you to read 180 pages at this point, but if you want to participate in the discussion, you should at take two minutes to read the FAQ.

That said, no one is offended that the game contains heterosexual relationships.

Shepard is a/n asian/african/caucasian/hispanic/anything man/woman born on earth/a spaceship/another planet.  S/he is a paragon of virtue, acting in the interest of interstellar peace and cooperation, or a total douchebag, looking out for number one.  S/he is a steadfast atheist or a staunch believer in the existence of a higher power.  S/he is a level headed soldier or an emotionally scarred headcase.

She can be gay or bisexual.  He cannot.

This is what people take issue with - why limit the character's potential in such an arbitrary way?  The precedent for homosexual relationships exists in Mass Effect already, and m/m relationships exist in other Bioware games.  The relationship dialog was fully voiced in ME1, partially voiced in ME2.  Why wasn't it included?  And why not include it now?  DLC and the Cerberus network is the perfect way to deliver it.  On this forum, more people are in favor of it than not, and even more people don't care either way, because it wouldn't change the game negatively for anyone.

Modifié par TommyServo, 02 avril 2010 - 03:55 .

[Raanz]

TommyServo: where do you get that FemShep can be gay? The only relationship that I can think of (and it Bioware's eyes, it's not a "real" relationship) is the Kelly gig. IMO, I think they threw in the Kelly relationship as a consolation prize for those players who decided to stick it out with their ME1 LI.

If you are referring to Liara, well I don't think that is intended to be a homosexual relationship. Liara's race just so happens to resemble females. They mate with any race any gender.

I'm still convinced that Mass Effect is a Bioware property that they have specific designs for and Shepard's sexuality is something they wanted to dictate...much like dictating that your ME1 LI would be protected through ME2. Like I said before, I really don't think it's a reflection on what they think of homosexuality, or peer or media pressure, it's just their choice. They designed and produced the game.

[FataliTensei]

Raanz wrote...

TommyServo: where do you get that FemShep can be gay? The only relationship that I can think of (and it Bioware's eyes, it's not a "real" relationship) is the Kelly gig. IMO, I think they threw in the Kelly relationship as a consolation prize for those players who decided to stick it out with their ME1 LI.
If you are referring to Liara, well I don't think that is intended to be a homosexual relationship. Liara's race just so happens to resemble females. They mate with any race any gender.
I'm still convinced that Mass Effect is a Bioware property that they have specific designs for and Shepard's sexuality is something they wanted to dictate...much like dictating that your ME1 LI would be protected through ME2. Like I said before, I really don't think it's a reflection on what they think of homosexuality, or peer or media pressure, it's just their choice. They designed and produced the game.

I will explain this once more, Asari are a mono-gendered race, mono means one, that gender is female ok?

That said, if a human woman were attracted to an Asari, she would have to be bisexual or a lesbian because they walk like women, talk like women and look like women, no exclusively straight female would ever be attracted to an Asari.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Raanz wrote...

TommyServo: where do you get that FemShep can be gay? The only relationship that I can think of (and it Bioware's eyes, it's not a "real" relationship) is the Kelly gig. IMO, I think they threw in the Kelly relationship as a consolation prize for those players who decided to stick it out with their ME1 LI.
If you are referring to Liara, well I don't think that is intended to be a homosexual relationship. Liara's race just so happens to resemble females. They mate with any race any gender.
I'm still convinced that Mass Effect is a Bioware property that they have specific designs for and Shepard's sexuality is something they wanted to dictate...much like dictating that your ME1 LI would be protected through ME2. Like I said before, I really don't think it's a reflection on what they think of homosexuality, or peer or media pressure, it's just their choice. They designed and produced the game.

First of all, asari are women.  Read the codex.

If you - and Bioware - want to nitpick and say that Femshep/Liara is not a homosexual relationship (despite the fact that asari are sexually and psychologically female) its fine, although by that logic, I don't understand how you can characterize something like MShep and Tali as a heterosexual relationship, since it's still interspecies.  Whatever.

It is still undeniable that for a woman to be sexually and romantically attracted to an asari, who embodies just about every ideal of feminine beauty, she would identify as either homosexual or bisexual.  This applies to the interest she can show towards Morinth and Samara as well.  That she can be sexually and romantically attracted to Kelly only further supports that.

Edit: RE your second point.  We all really like Bioware, largely because they do have a nontypical stance on LGBT issues compared with most other game companies.  I don't think most of the people agitating for this stuff is angry at them, but they'd like clarification.  If it was clearly never intended in the first place, people might question the exclusion, but not to this extent.  However, it's clear that full s/s romance was developed and partially implemented in the final game.  There is voiced dialog for a MaleShep/Kaidan romance that you can dig up in the game files.  But when people ask about this stuff, they get Casey Hudson being cute about Femshep/Liara and Ray Muzyka dodging the question. 

Yeah, it's their game, but they implemented Tali and Garrus as LIs based on community feedback.  There's no reason why they wouldn't reactivate this stuff too.  A lot of people want it.

Modifié par TommyServo, 02 avril 2010 - 05:00 .

[Raanz]

@FataliTensei you don't have to explain it to me, Yes they are mono-gendered according to codex but that doesn't necessarily mean "female". If you take the wiki as a good source, it specifically states: "A mono-gender race—distinctly feminine in appearance" not distinctly FEMALE. "Liara says her species is "mono-gendered—male and female have no real meaning for us," and, if asked, says that she is "not precisely a woman"."

I see where the actual codex states "an all female race". I can see where it gets confusing. So I guess that is open to debate. If you believe the former, then homosexual has no meaning when dealing with the asari, but I understand your stance in regards to that.



@TommyServo I read the codex, several times. See my above statement. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a homosexual relationship was not the intention when they allowed Shepard to meld/mate with an asari (Liara). Maybe it was, maybe Bioware has no issue with girl on girl, I can't say with all certainty, but I don't think that is the case.

As far as petitioning or lobbying for it to be done, more power to anyone that wants it and gets it done. It won't bother me. It also won't bother me if Bioware never puts it in. I would still play the game if they had zero romantic relationships in it, including heterosexual.



As far as Hudson or Muzyka goes, they have to walk a fine line. I don't blame them for being guarded with answers to sensitive subjects like this. People get so offended these days over such things that it could start a sh*t-storm either way.

[The Uncanny]

Raanz wrote...

Maybe Bioware has no issue with girl on girl, I can't say with all certainty, but I don't think that is the case.

Juhani, Silk Fox and Leliana would certainly suggest they do not.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Raanz wrote...

@FataliTensei you don't have to explain it to me, Yes they are mono-gendered according to codex but that doesn't necessarily mean "female". If you take the wiki as a good source, it specifically states: "A mono-gender race—distinctly feminine in appearance" not distinctly FEMALE. "Liara says her species is "mono-gendered—male and female have no real meaning for us," and, if asked, says that she is "not precisely a woman"."
I see where the actual codex states "an all female race". I can see where it gets confusing. So I guess that is open to debate. If you believe the former, then homosexual has no meaning when dealing with the asari, but I understand your stance in regards to that.

@TommyServo I read the codex, several times. See my above statement. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a homosexual relationship was not the intention when they allowed Shepard to meld/mate with an asari (Liara). Maybe it was, maybe Bioware has no issue with girl on girl, I can't say with all certainty, but I don't think that is the case.
As far as petitioning or lobbying for it to be done, more power to anyone that wants it and gets it done. It won't bother me. It also won't bother me if Bioware never puts it in. I would still play the game if they had zero romantic relationships in it, including heterosexual.

As far as Hudson or Muzyka goes, they have to walk a fine line. I don't blame them for being guarded with answers to sensitive subjects like this. People get so offended these days over such things that it could start a sh*t-storm either way.

Female reproductive organs means female.  It can happen.  Human attractiion to a female asari species is homosexual, that is not necessarily  the case in regards to the Asari since they can mate with any species any gender.  But for females of other species it is.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 02 avril 2010 - 05:31 .

[Lightice_av]

I see where the actual codex states "an all female race". I can see where it gets confusing. So I guess that is open to debate. If you believe the former, then homosexual has no meaning when dealing with the asari, but I understand your stance in regards to that.

The Codex is the most canonical source there is, not the wiki. The asari biology is distinctly female. They have maternal instincts. They have feminine appearance and use feminine pronouns. A human woman who is attracted to an asari has to be bisexual or gay.

[Raanz]

The Uncanny wrote...

Raanz wrote...

Maybe Bioware has no issue with girl on girl, I can't say with all certainty, but I don't think that is the case.

Juhani, Silk Fox and Leliana would certainly suggest they do not.

Point taken.  I meant for their Mass Effect IP though.