7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Servo to the bitter end]

Raanz wrote...

@FataliTensei you don't have to explain it to me, Yes they are mono-gendered according to codex but that doesn't necessarily mean "female". If you take the wiki as a good source, it specifically states: "A mono-gender race—distinctly feminine in appearance" not distinctly FEMALE. "Liara says her species is "mono-gendered—male and female have no real meaning for us," and, if asked, says that she is "not precisely a woman"."
I see where the actual codex states "an all female race". I can see where it gets confusing. So I guess that is open to debate. If you believe the former, then homosexual has no meaning when dealing with the asari, but I understand your stance in regards to that.

You left out this - again, this is from the wiki, but I'm at work so I can't check the codex proper, but I know it says this.

However, in the Codex it is stated that the asari are an all-female race. The Galactic Codex: Essentials Edition 2183
says that "while asari have only one gender, they are not asexual like
single-celled life—all asari are sexually female", and according to
Liara they also have maternal instincts.

@TommyServo I read the codex, several times. See my above statement. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a homosexual relationship was not the intention when they allowed Shepard to meld/mate with an asari (Liara). Maybe it was, maybe Bioware has no issue with girl on girl, I can't say with all certainty, but I don't think that is the case.
As far as petitioning or lobbying for it to be done, more power to anyone that wants it and gets it done. It won't bother me. It also won't bother me if Bioware never puts it in. I would still play the game if they had zero romantic relationships in it, including heterosexual.

As far as Hudson or Muzyka goes, they have to walk a fine line. I don't blame them for being guarded with answers to sensitive subjects like this. People get so offended these days over such things that it could start a sh*t-storm either way.

Although I think it's a meaningless distinction, I'm happy to concede that there are no "full-fledged" (read: human, if that's how we're defining them) homosexual relationships depicted in the game - Liara's a different species, Kelly's a fling, etc. - but that's not what I'm saying here.  We think that there is ample evidence that you can play FemShep as a homosexual or a bisexual.  There's ample evidence that the ability to do so with MShep was at least planned.  Considering the company's track record, why leave them out?  And why not add it now?  I feel that the community has provided a lot of good suggestions that wouldn't negatively impact anyone's game.

Anywho, support or not, Raanz, thanks for actually engaging in the discussion rather than just flitting in and crapping out a thoughtless blurb.  And to everyone else - keep it comin', guys!

Modifié par TommyServo, 02 avril 2010 - 05:48 .

[Raanz]

Lightice_av wrote...

I see where the actual codex states "an all female race". I can see where it gets confusing. So I guess that is open to debate. If you believe the former, then homosexual has no meaning when dealing with the asari, but I understand your stance in regards to that.

The Codex is the most canonical source there is, not the wiki. The asari biology is distinctly female. They have maternal instincts. They have feminine appearance and use feminine pronouns. A human woman who is attracted to an asari has to be bisexual or gay.

I already stated that I could see that given the definition of the codex.  Although in-game dialogue contradicts that somewhat...Liara's own words.  BUT, I accept the codex definition and agree with what you say.

[Raanz]

[quote]TommyServo wrote...

You left out this - again, this is from the wiki, but I'm at work so I can't check the codex proper, but I know it says this.

[quote]However, in the Codex it is stated that the asari are an all-female race. The Galactic Codex: Essentials Edition 2183
says that "while asari have only one gender, they are not asexual like
single-celled life—all asari are sexually female", and according to
Liara they also have maternal instincts.[/quote]

[quote]

Although I think it's a meaningless distinction, I'm happy to concede that there are no full-fledged (read: human) homosexual relationships in the game - Liara's a different species, Kelly's a fling, etc. - but that's not what I'm saying here.  We think that there is ample evidence that you can play FemShep as a homosexual or a bisexual.  There's ample evidence that the ability to do so with MShep was at least planned.  Considering the company's track record, why leave them out?  And why not add it now?  I feel that the community has provided a lot of good suggestions that wouldn't negatively impact anyone's game.

Anywho, support or not, Raanz, thanks for actually engaging in the discussion rather than just flitting in and crapping out a thoughtless blurb.  And to everyone else - keep it comin', guys!


[/quote]

Yes, I conceded to the codex.  That has to be considered "canon" as someone pointed out, so your points are understood.
If there was evidence (not questioning it) that they had the ability for male Shep and Kaidan to hook up and took it out, then I have to stick to the idea that Bioware considered it and decided that it was something they didn't want to do.
If enough players want the ability to play their Shep that way, I suspect that they will at least entertain the idea of including it....ALTHOUGH, the series is already 2 parts into the story and changing it now might not make sense in their grand vision.
I totally support our(the player's) ability to discuss wanted changes to games that we purchase and lobby the developer to make changes that players would enjoy.  I'm always happy to have intellegent discussions with differing points of view with mutual respect on both sides.

[The Uncanny]

Raanz wrote...

I totally support our(the player's) ability to discuss wanted changes to games that we purchase and lobby the developer to make changes that players would enjoy.  I'm always happy to have intellegent discussions with differing points of view with mutual respect on both sides.

Thanks Raanz. Much appreciated.

[LiquidGrape]

...Civil dicussions?

...Common courtesies?

...Smileys?



- "Good communication is as stimulating as black coffee and just as hard to sleep after."

[The Uncanny]

LiquidGrape wrote...

...Civil dicussions?
...Common courtesies?
...Smileys?

- "Good communication is as stimulating as black coffee and just as hard to sleep after."

Indeed. I think it does us good to, at least sometimes, have a little less debate and a little more conversation.

[Siansonea]

Personally I think it's a waste of time to debate the technicalities of whether asari are female or not at this point. For all intents and purposes, asari ARE female. They give birth, they suckle young. Just because their race does not have males does not mean asari are any less female. Asari can play a semblance of a male role in reproduction, but they contribute no genetic material in the process, and apparently possess no analog to male human genitalia. All of this has been said before, and I am sure it will all be said again. But in my mind, the matter is settled, now people are simply using the debate to further an agenda or viewpoint.



The purpose of this asari gender tangent seems to be to establish parity in the exclusion of same sex romances for males and females, and I find that disingenuous. You cannot tell me that FemShep romancing Liara and Kelly aren't overtly lesbian relationships. Dismissing Kelly as a 'fling' is also rather silly, since if there were a similar m/m 'fling' option in the game, there would doubtless be few individuals that would say a MaleShep who explores that relationship would not be gay. And all this argument accomplishes is to highlight the need for greater depth to f/f human-only romance options.



And ultimately this attempt to derail the discussion serves no purpose, it does not lessen the fact that the exclusion of same sex romances is at odds with the overall philosophy of the game, which allows for a tremendous degree of customization of the central protagonist/player character. It is conspicuous by its absence, and no amount of misdirection or false analogies can diminish that perception.



Bioware’s silence on this topic speaks volumes. I understand if Bioware ultimately feels that implementing an overt m/m romance option is too risky, and chooses not to include them in DLC or ME3. That said, we should not deceive ourselves that there is any reason for this exclusion other than social pressure or a desire to avoid bad publicity or decreased game sales. They have a right to protect their intellectual property, and they cannot be expected to ‘do the right thing’ if it will end up costing them millions in the long run. Personally I think they are right not to come up with excuses for the exclusion, it is best to let everyone believe what they want, since that probably does less damage than taking a clear stand on the issue.

[Siansonea]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
It's a very fun way to play the game. I have six core Shepards that I play, one from each class, three males and three females. They run the gamut in attitudes, and I like to come up with a psychological profile of sorts for each character that guides their interactions, and even influences their actions in combat. Devon Shepard, my Paragon Vanguard, crosses all his 't's and dots all his 'i's, scans planets for resources, upgrades all his equipment, and does every Loyalty and N7 mission. Ashley Shepard, my Renegade Soldier, does only what is mission critical, and doesn't waste time with the niceties of social discourse or mollycoddling her team. My other Shepards fall between these two extremes, and each has a unique twist that makes them enjoyable and memorable for me.

I know that has very little to do with same-sex romance per se, but it illustrates how inclusion of these romance options can do more than just address the desires of gay people to have romance options that are relevant for themselves. For me, Mass Effect 2 is not one game, it's six games, and I want each one to be as fun and different from each of the other five as possible. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Well it sounds like when you are finished with ME2, then you will have thoroughly exhausted all potential in the game.  You also come across as having a very positive attitude and that you really enjoy the game.  This is somewhat off topic, but as you said it also pertains to romance options and I am glad to have read your statements about this anyway.  I was getting a little burned out, but I may pursue some of the methods that you described.  Now I feel so uncreative. Actually it probably more than likely has more to do with myself not trying to be creative and exploring other avenues I suppose.

Thank you, and I hope you give this a try, for me it adds a tremendous dimension to the game. That's one reason I played my first runthrough of Mass Effect 2 with one of my male characters, to diminish my tendency to put myself into the character. My Shepard that is most like me is my Engineer, Leah Shepard, and I'm planning on playing her last, but I doubt by that point I will identify with her. One of these days I should create an avatar of myself in the game and play through the game as I would if I were Shepard. It's a different gaming style that I should explore. I doubt I'd romance any of the current trio of LIs, though, since the only human is a character I am not drawn to. Jacob's face animation is just too weird, and I hate the Paragon dialogue between FemShep and Jacob.

And even though in real life I am kind of a goody two shoes, and Samara is my favorite squad mate, I will admit that I greatly enjoyed my Renegade playthrough in which Ashley Shepard resolved Samara's loyalty mission in the Renegade spirit.

[SimonTheFrog]

Siansonea II wrote...

<snip... worth reading though >
Personally I think they are right not to come up with excuses for the exclusion, it is best to let everyone believe what they want, since that probably does less damage than taking a clear stand on the issue.

They can only loose sympathy if they comment on this. 
1.) If they tell us that it was planned but cut because of budget/deadline issues, we go mad because they planned poorly.
2.) If they tell us it was never planned we go mad because they left it out intentionally after including it in other games and this is pandering to people who don't like gays. 
3.) If they tell us that it doesn't fit the narrative structure of the trilogy we still go mad because it sounds like a silly dodge while it actually means the same as #2

So, until they announce some solid plans to change this omission, they better be silent about it for their own sakes. 
It would have been much easier and more convenient if they just had put it in... but hey... 

[The Uncanny]

Siansonea II wrote...

And even though in real life I am kind of a goody two shoes, and Samara is my favorite squad mate, I will admit that I greatly enjoyed my Renegade playthrough in which Ashley Shepard resolved Samara's loyalty mission in the Renegade spirit.

I know what you mean. Back when I was playing ME1 I found my renegade playthrough really difficult and I felt awful about some of the things my character did.

But playing her again in ME2 it all felt much, much easier... and more fun being a renegade. In fact I found myself wishing that she could behave a great deal worse!

[Servo to the bitter end]

Off topic, but @Siansonea - from the way you write, I'm actually hearing Samara's voice when reading your posts, hehe.

[EliteZev]

Sounds dumb, I don't think Garrus, Thane, or Jacob are gay, let alone any male on the Normandy, doesn't fit their characters.

[Raanz]

Siansonea II wrote...

The purpose of this asari gender tangent seems to be to establish parity in the exclusion of same sex romances for males and females, and I find that disingenuous. You cannot tell me that FemShep romancing Liara and Kelly aren't overtly lesbian relationships. Dismissing Kelly as a 'fling' is also rather silly, since if there were a similar m/m 'fling' option in the game, there would doubtless be few individuals that would say a MaleShep who explores that relationship would not be gay. And all this argument accomplishes is to highlight the need for greater depth to f/f human-only romance options.

Well, there is always the other possible explanation: That Bioware has always intended that the Shepard in their story is male and everything is geared towards that reality, and the ability to play Shepard as a female was an afterthough meant to appeal to those players that would like to have that option.  I'm not saying that I believe that, I'm just saying that if you are looking for some reason that will satisfy and alleviate the angst over it, that could very well be one.

And ultimately this attempt to derail the discussion serves no purpose, it does not lessen the fact that the exclusion of same sex romances is at odds with the overall philosophy of the game, which allows for a tremendous degree of customization of the central protagonist/player character. It is conspicuous by its absence, and no amount of misdirection or false analogies can diminish that perception.

I hope it didn't come across that way, I never meant to derail the discussion.  Personally, I don't feel that the inability to pursue male/male relationships is in any way, at odds with the philosophy of the game.  As I mentioned before, I just look at it differently then you (obviously).  This is probably in large part to the fact that I mainly play a male Shepard and rarely if ever play a female Shepard, it's just the way I prefer to enjoy the game.
At it's base level, the game is about a hero saving the galaxy, what he/she does inbetween is filler and fluff.

Bioware’s silence on this topic speaks volumes. I understand if Bioware ultimately feels that implementing an overt m/m romance option is too risky, and chooses not to include them in DLC or ME3. That said, we should not deceive ourselves that there is any reason for this exclusion other than social pressure or a desire to avoid bad publicity or decreased game sales. They have a right to protect their intellectual property, and they cannot be expected to ‘do the right thing’ if it will end up costing them millions in the long run. Personally I think they are right not to come up with excuses for the exclusion, it is best to let everyone believe what they want, since that probably does less damage than taking a clear stand on the issue.

I don't feel that I am deceiving myself in regards to that.  They have made that decision because they don't want to deal with perceived societal issues, or because they simply didn't want that as part of their storyline.  I would argue that no one can say for sure what reason is behind it.  Only the developers know for certain.  I would also add that I don't believe they have an obligation to give a reason either.

[Servo to the bitter end]

EliteZev wrote...

Sounds dumb, I don't think Garrus, Thane, or Jacob are gay, let alone any male on the Normandy, doesn't fit their characters.

Strictly speaking, none of them actually exist, so that's for Bioware to decide.

You might consider reading the FAQ so you have a good foundation for the
discussion and backing up your opinion with details rather than baldly stating it as
fact.

Modifié par TommyServo, 02 avril 2010 - 07:47 .

[Kokkostan]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
Groupies aren't quite the same as an elite para-military team of professionals, though. If nothing else, you expect a little more discipline when on the job.

I think it doesn't matter what kind of professional you are, if it is about your idol which is that sex you like. Maybe it has something to do with genes and instincts, because of course it would be good to have offsrping with a person you think is perfect and therefore his or her genes would be good too. Of course you can train to withstand that feeling, but if that idol pushes that issue a little I'm sure it wouldn't need much to jump to the bed. Especially when we are talking about universal hero here.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Siansonea II wrote...
It's a very fun way to play the game. I have six core Shepards that I play, one from each class, three males and three females. They run the gamut in attitudes, and I like to come up with a psychological profile of sorts for each character that guides their interactions, and even influences their actions in combat. Devon Shepard, my Paragon Vanguard, crosses all his 't's and dots all his 'i's, scans planets for resources, upgrades all his equipment, and does every Loyalty and N7 mission. Ashley Shepard, my Renegade Soldier, does only what is mission critical, and doesn't waste time with the niceties of social discourse or mollycoddling her team. My other Shepards fall between these two extremes, and each has a unique twist that makes them enjoyable and memorable for me.

I know that has very little to do with same-sex romance per se, but it illustrates how inclusion of these romance options can do more than just address the desires of gay people to have romance options that are relevant for themselves. For me, Mass Effect 2 is not one game, it's six games, and I want each one to be as fun and different from each of the other five as possible. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Somebody likes getting their money's worth.

[LiquidGrape]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
It's a very fun way to play the game. I have six core Shepards that I play, one from each class, three males and three females. They run the gamut in attitudes, and I like to come up with a psychological profile of sorts for each character that guides their interactions, and even influences their actions in combat. Devon Shepard, my Paragon Vanguard, crosses all his 't's and dots all his 'i's, scans planets for resources, upgrades all his equipment, and does every Loyalty and N7 mission. Ashley Shepard, my Renegade Soldier, does only what is mission critical, and doesn't waste time with the niceties of social discourse or mollycoddling her team. My other Shepards fall between these two extremes, and each has a unique twist that makes them enjoyable and memorable for me.

I know that has very little to do with same-sex romance per se, but it illustrates how inclusion of these romance options can do more than just address the desires of gay people to have romance options that are relevant for themselves. For me, Mass Effect 2 is not one game, it's six games, and I want each one to be as fun and different from each of the other five as possible. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Somebody likes getting their money's worth.

I understand Siansonea's reasoning perfectly.
Working on my fourth Shepard (second Sheploo) this very moment, carefully molding his persona and not thinking so much about the consequences of his actions, but rather the psychological fundaments of his behaviour.
It elevates the experience beyond mere personal emulation, and it makes for a fantastic time.

[Siansonea]

TommyServo wrote...

Off topic, but @Siansonea - from the way you write, I'm actually hearing Samara's voice when reading your posts, hehe.

This made me chuckle.  I actually do a pretty good Samara voice, if I do say so myself. I can't quite master Morinth's voice though, she's a bit 'rapsy' and I have a hard time emulating that.

[Siansonea]

[quote]Raanz wrote...
[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
*snipped*[/quote]
Well, there is always the other possible explanation: That Bioware has always intended that the Shepard in their story is male and everything is geared towards that reality, and the ability to play Shepard as a female was an afterthough meant to appeal to those players that would like to have that option.  I'm not saying that I believe that, I'm just saying that if you are looking for some reason that will satisfy and alleviate the angst over it, that could very well be one.[/quote]

I think Shepard’s gender was planned to be player’s choice from a very early stage of the game’s development, and in any case it’s been this way through two games now, so the issue at hand cannot be explained away due to considerations of the earliest intentions for the character. I’m certain the character has evolved much since the early drafts, and it appears that the developer’s intent has been to expand the options for Shepard rather than limit them. In any case, I’m really not losing sleep over the issue, and this conversation is very interesting in its own right.

[quote]Raanz wrote...
[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
*snipped*[/quote]
I hope it didn't come across that way, I never meant to derail the discussion.  Personally, I don't feel that the inability to pursue male/male relationships is in any way, at odds with the philosophy of the game.  As I mentioned before, I just look at it differently then you (obviously).  This is probably in large part to the fact that I mainly play a male Shepard and rarely if ever play a female Shepard, it's just the way I prefer to enjoy the game.
At it's base level, the game is about a hero saving the galaxy, what he/she does inbetween is filler and fluff.[/quote]

One man’s filler and fluff is another man’s (or woman’s) meat and potatoes. For some, the game’s combat and storyline are its raison d’être but for others it is the interpersonal interaction and social aspects of the game. I actually enjoy all aspects of the game, which is why it is one of my favorites. We must remember that even if there is an aspect of the game we don’t focus on, others might be very focused upon it, and it’s to the betterment of the game for everyone if all aspects are improved to the greatest extent possible.

[quote]Raanz wrote...
[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
*snipped*[/quote]
I don't feel that I am deceiving myself in regards to that.  They have made that decision because they don't want to deal with perceived societal issues, or because they simply didn't want that as part of their storyline.  I would argue that no one can say for sure what reason is behind it.  Only the developers know for certain.  I would also add that I don't believe they have an obligation to give a reason either.[/quote]
[/quote]

I agree with this completely!

[Siansonea]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
It's a very fun way to play the game. I have six core Shepards that I play, one from each class, three males and three females. They run the gamut in attitudes, and I like to come up with a psychological profile of sorts for each character that guides their interactions, and even influences their actions in combat. Devon Shepard, my Paragon Vanguard, crosses all his 't's and dots all his 'i's, scans planets for resources, upgrades all his equipment, and does every Loyalty and N7 mission. Ashley Shepard, my Renegade Soldier, does only what is mission critical, and doesn't waste time with the niceties of social discourse or mollycoddling her team. My other Shepards fall between these two extremes, and each has a unique twist that makes them enjoyable and memorable for me.

I know that has very little to do with same-sex romance per se, but it illustrates how inclusion of these romance options can do more than just address the desires of gay people to have romance options that are relevant for themselves. For me, Mass Effect 2 is not one game, it's six games, and I want each one to be as fun and different from each of the other five as possible. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Somebody likes getting their money's worth.

I do! Ironically, though, ME2 and the strategy guide were a birthday present this year, so there's no money at stake except for what I've shelled out for DLC.

[FataliTensei]

So many Samaras O_o

[Siansonea]

We Samaras have to stick together...