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[Hrodwulf-666]

RyrineaNara wrote...

I too am surprised at the loosing a limb comment for Males.

Its a matter of Context and perspective, For instance he might mean that because he was such a strong leader and friend and iconic figure for humanity that it was 'like losing a limb'... Or so painful losing my friend that it was 'like losing a limb'. 
I really think there is actually nothing remotely Homosexual about that remark, friends can speak passionatley about each other in certain circumstances and I think saving the universe multiple times is valid lol. The only thing that makes that quote Homosexual is the interpretation of the player. E.g in that you are all so bothered about Kadan and shepard being Gay that your projecting your interpretation onto him as a character, thus you will over analyse anything he says. 
If I had a friend die before my very eyes then reappear I might say a LOT worse than it was 'like losing a limb'.

[catabuca]

But it's perfectly acceptable to interpret it in that way, Hdrowulf. It's not 'over analysing', it's role-playing.

[LiquidGrape]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

It's funny how Bioware's "cop-outs" for same sex relations are actually more suggestive than the outright romantic ones.
Kaidan's "losing a limb", Tali's fumbling response to the linking of suits, Jack's dead end...
If their intention was to defuse any hope for future involvement, they failed gloriously.

Maybe that's part of the larger package. Keep the tease in and maybe they won't completely alienate the GLBT-friendly fanbase, but if they don't actually deliver on it they won't alienate the hetero-and-two-chicks-if-they're-hot crowd. Which is just irritating, really.

You might have a point there. And it wouldn't surprise me if they consider that a decent compromise.
- Which is rubbish.

Though, thinking back, it's not like they've got a perfect track record
of actually delivering. I'm pretty sure I got to see Furious Ming
actually kiss Dawn Star, but they faded to black well before he locked
lips with Sky.

Indeed they did. Both same-sex climaxes resulted in a fade to black. And some of the intimate dialogue was removed.
I suppose that should've been an indication of what was to come. Honestly. Censoring a kiss?
Thankfully, a dedicated fan community managed to remove the fade effect, so now the entire scene plays out in all its snogging glory with the proclamations of love restored.
- Additionally, someone found a way to enable the admittedly rather creepy ménage à trois with Silk Fox and Dawn Star for female characters.
I'm not complaining. But still...they are first cousins.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 08 avril 2010 - 05:04 .

[Hrodwulf-666]

catabuca wrote...

But it's perfectly acceptable to interpret it in that way, Hdrowulf. It's not 'over analysing', it's role-playing.

Totally, I know mate! I ain't killing anyone over it yet.
I'm not saying its wrong...Nothing is wrong. I'm just trying to introduce the idea that all this 'concern' is actually down to a matter of perspective & perception and that they are all in peoples heads. Hence if anyone has a formulated oppinion, right or wrong (whatever 'they' are) on any matter it will colour the processing of their interpretations, actions and decisions affecting any inward information their mind receives. If you catch my proverbial drift. 
I wasnt attacking anyone...just perspectives.

I think this makes sense....I may have smoked too much!

[catabuca]

Hrodwulf-666 wrote...

catabuca wrote...

But it's perfectly acceptable to interpret it in that way, Hdrowulf. It's not 'over analysing', it's role-playing.

Totally, I know mate! I ain't killing anyone over it yet.
I'm not saying its wrong...Nothing is wrong. I'm just trying to introduce the idea that all this 'concern' is actually down to a matter of perspective & perception and that they are all in peoples heads. Hence if anyone has a formulated oppinion, right or wrong (whatever 'they' are) on any matter it will colour the processing of their interpretations, actions and decisions affecting any inward information their mind receives. If you catch my proverbial drift. 
I wasnt attacking anyone...just perspectives.

I think this makes sense....I may have smoked too much!

You be British, g'wan, tell me my spidey-sense is on the money here

Aaanyway, yes, we be subjective creatures, we all see what we want to see. There is no concrete 'Kaidan's gay/Kaidan's straight' (except he is gay ). I guess the main thrust (fnar) of the Kaidan stuff comes from the dialogue that was cut from the games where he and manShep could fall hopelessly in love. Taken together with how, to some, his body language and verbal intonation just screams 'take me, I'm yours', well, those predisposed to fancy a little Kaidan action are going to interpret it as him being hot for manShep. S'all good.

[Grunt420]

check this out



http://social.bioware.com/brc/1326930

[Siansonea]

Hrodwulf-666 wrote...

 Just because someone likes the same sex doesn't mean they are a 'fruit'. There are plenty of Gay/Bi types out there that can kick ass as good as anyone, this is true throughout history, MIGHTY men of history and Literature have loved another man and saved or changed the world! 

ANCIENT GREECE anyone!!!!! What about Spartan society, homosexuality was practically expected and deemed pure! 
ALEXANDER THE GREAT WAS GAY!!!!!!

Jesus who gives a ****, the point is that its a Role Playing Game if you don't  want to touch another man's tool then DONT play it that way, but there would be NO shame in a heroic, masculine, empowered Gay Shepard just as there is no shame in a Heroic liberated and focussed Lesbian Shepard.
Why should Gay gamers (GAYMERS???) be excluded from an immersive gaming experience by being forced to explore only straight & 'pseudo' Sapphic encounters that serve only to gratify the young, immature and inexperienced.

GAMING IS ESCAPISM!!! My motto is this... 'ANY way out of the world!!!' why should we be dogged by boring real world debates on sexuality (that in itself is only a matter of perspective) in something that is supposed to free us of the daily burden of living in a populace of ignorant embittered biggots who want to control what we do and make sure we do things the way they want, in the eyes and in the name of their supposed gods... **** all this fundamentalism and Homophobia, stop dicking around and actually learn to be a human and this **** wouldnt be a problem and much less of a waste of time..  Why not have the option of a gay love interest you dont have to play every angle!

We must understand that many males regardless of age harbor a deep-seated fear of homosexuality. It is not a fear of homosexuals per se, but a fear that they might themselves be homosexual or have bisexual tendencies. This can trigger a visceral and very powerful reaction against all things related to homosexuality. To assert the appearance of exclusive heterosexuality, they feel it necessary to suppress any occurrences of homosexuality within their sphere of influence. These reactions can range from the innocuous: simply not watching TV shows that feature gay actors or characters; to the extreme: violence against persons perceived to be homosexual.

Clearly Bioware's decision to exclude homosexual content falls somewhere toward the innocuous-to-middle part of this spectrum, no one is truly harmed by their actions, but it does make one wonder about the motives of the individual who has made the decision.

It is important to remember that one's reputation for heterosexuality is not solidified by seeking to keep oneself and others from homosexual 'temptation', but by being indifferent to such temptation. Those who rail mightily against homosexuality only draw attention to their own insecurities and self-doubt.

[catabuca]

In other words, the lady doth protest too much.

[LiquidGrape]

catabuca wrote...

In other words, the lady doth protest too much.

In time we hate that which we often fear.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 08 avril 2010 - 05:20 .

[Siansonea]

catabuca wrote...

In other words, the lady doth protest too much.

The lady, or the gent.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Though, thinking back, it's not like they've got a perfect track record of actually delivering. I'm pretty sure I got to see Furious Ming actually kiss Dawn Star, but they faded to black well before he locked lips with Sky.

Indeed they did. Both same-sex climaxes resulted in a fade to black. And some of the intimate dialogue was removed.
I suppose that should've been an indication of what was to come. Honestly. Censoring a kiss?
Thankfully, a dedicated fan community managed to remove the fade effect, so now the entire scene plays out in all its snogging glory with the proclamations of love restored.

Happily, I have JE for the PC; I'll have to look for this.

Selfishly, I have to admit that this is one of the reasons I favour pressuring Bioware to just suck it up and fully implement s/s romances rather than flirting with and dancing around them, and then providing non-answers to valid, on-point questions about why the content isn't there.

I rarely game on the PC anymore because I was tired of upgrading a comp that worked well for pretty much everything else I used it for - web browsing, schoolwork, financial crud, etc. I got a console instead, which unfortunately leaves me and a lot of other people well out of seeing this kind of content because we can't use any mods - or, if we can, it takes a hell of a lot more work. It's unlikely that I'll buy future games for the PC at all.

I mean, it's all well and good for some people to say 'the content's there, just use a mod to unlock it' (something that I think came up a couple of times very early in this thread). It leaves console players out in the cold, though, and there are a lot of us who'd like to see it.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 08 avril 2010 - 05:48 .

[Hrodwulf-666]

[/quote]

You be British, g'wan, tell me my spidey-sense is on the money here [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie][/quote]


Its a fair cop I done it all! Guvnor! 

The use of 'Mate' and 'aint' is a real give away!

[/quote]
We must understand that many males regardless of age harbor a deep-seated fear of homosexuality. It is not a fear of homosexuals per se, but a fear that they might themselves be homosexual or have bisexual tendencies. This can trigger a visceral and very powerful reaction against all things related to homosexuality. To assert the appearance of exclusive heterosexuality, they feel it necessary to suppress any occurrences of homosexuality within their sphere of influence. These reactions can range from the innocuous: simply not watching TV shows that feature gay actors or characters; to the extreme: violence against persons perceived to be homosexual.

Clearly Bioware's decision to exclude homosexual content falls somewhere toward the innocuous-to-middle part of this spectrum, no one is truly harmed by their actions, but it does make one wonder about the motives of the individual who has made the decision.

It is important to remember that one's reputation for heterosexuality is not solidified by seeking to keep oneself and others from homosexual 'temptation', but by being indifferent to such temptation. Those who rail mightily against homosexuality only draw attention to their own insecurities and self-doubt.
[/quote]

I understand this... 'The cog that wants to be oiled squeaks loudest after all!'
But as a supposed society we need to combat this and lend a guiding hand to those who are closed minded and unenlightened , I'm not saying gay encounters all round! But If we aim to progress and drift beyond 'Terra Firma' we need to get over this and similar serious issues.
We solve nothing by skirting issues and staying behind picket lines. Information should be universal, nothing should be taboo, 'enlightenment for all'... the quest for enlightenment and unity for me is one of the perceived principles of this game, it is ironic to me that the 'gay' issue has hampered peoples enjoyment of the game and caused the Studio to exclude content because of 'Taboos' or societal templates and literal FEAR.
As I have said... in the early stages of our fruitful existence Homosexuality was accepted and even preferred...WHAT has caused this change and the adoption of hatred against a sexual preference.  

I'm not going to change the world on a video game forum so ill keep quiet, I just wanted to throw down another perspective on this issue, Its dangerous being simultaneously weird and on the net!

x

[catabuca]

There is something really telling about the fact that these files are in the PC versions, and recoverable, at all.



1) It implicitly accepts that some people want this content, that BW want to provide it, but feel constrained in some way to not offer it in actual gameplay



2) It sends the wrong message that homosexuality not 'acceptable' behaviour if it has to be hidden away and can only be activated via community modding



3) It makes some people start to think that saying 'oh well, at least I've got the PC version and can mod the game to see those files' is acceptable - lucky old PC owners. That isn't acceptable, because it neatly diverts attention away from the fact that this content is presented as somehow 'underground' or whatever.

[Hrodwulf-666]

catabuca wrote...

There is something really telling about the fact that these files are in the PC versions, and recoverable, at all.

1) It implicitly accepts that some people want this content, that BW want to provide it, but feel constrained in some way to not offer it in actual gameplay

2) It sends the wrong message that homosexuality not 'acceptable' behaviour if it has to be hidden away and can only be activated via community modding

3) It makes some people start to think that saying 'oh well, at least I've got the PC version and can mod the game to see those files' is acceptable - lucky old PC owners. That isn't acceptable, because it neatly diverts attention away from the fact that this content is presented as somehow 'underground' or whatever.

Right on...

[Temper_Graniteskul]

catabuca wrote...

There is something really telling about the fact that these files are in the PC versions, and recoverable, at all.

1) It implicitly accepts that some people want this content, that BW want to provide it, but feel constrained in some way to not offer it in actual gameplay

2) It sends the wrong message that homosexuality not 'acceptable' behaviour if it has to be hidden away and can only be activated via community modding

3) It makes some people start to think that saying 'oh well, at least I've got the PC version and can mod the game to see those files' is acceptable - lucky old PC owners. That isn't acceptable, because it neatly diverts attention away from the fact that this content is presented as somehow 'underground' or whatever.

True that. The level of finish for the 'hidden' content in ME1 in particular supports your first point, I think.

[Siansonea]

Excellent post Hrodwulf. And you are right, we aren't changing the world here. But perhaps some young homosexual is reading this topic, and instead of turning toward a life of homophobia, he or she might take a step or two toward self-acceptance and tolerance of others. It is not beyond the realm of possibility. It is sadly ironic that the worst enemies of happy, enlightened homosexuals are twisted, unstable, unhappy individuals who are themselves homosexual. Ted Haggerd, Mark Foley, and John Wayne Gacy spring to mind as examples.

By the way, I am American, if you were referring to me in your post above. Or "Murrikin" as our previous president used to say.

[Hrodwulf-666]

 I am American, if you were referring to me in your post above. Or "Murrikin" as our previous president used to say.

Nice reply!
Sorry I was replying to catabuca as well in that reply. I ****ed up the quote markers! 

[catabuca]

Hrodwulf-666 wrote...
I understand this... 'The cog that wants to be oiled squeaks loudest after all!'
But as a supposed society we need to combat this and lend a guiding hand to those who are closed minded and unenlightened , I'm not saying gay encounters all round! But If we aim to progress and drift beyond 'Terra Firma' we need to get over this and similar serious issues.
We solve nothing by skirting issues and staying behind picket lines. Information should be universal, nothing should be taboo, 'enlightenment for all'... the quest for enlightenment and unity for me is one of the perceived principles of this game, it is ironic to me that the 'gay' issue has hampered peoples enjoyment of the game and caused the Studio to exclude content because of 'Taboos' or societal templates and literal FEAR.
As I have said... in the early stages of our fruitful existence Homosexuality was accepted and even preferred...WHAT has caused this change and the adoption of hatred against a sexual preference.  

I'm not going to change the world on a video game forum so ill keep quiet, I just wanted to throw down another perspective on this issue, Its dangerous being simultaneously weird and on the net!

x

The answer absolutely is education, education, education (I feel like a Labour candidate *shudder*). It shouldn't be an issue. BW should be able to include gay content and it just be there, just as straight content is. It involves a paradigm shift in the way we think about these things, you're right - as a society. No one gives it another thought when there is straight content, because it's seen as just content. Gay content should also be seen as just content. But unfortunately, we're not there yet, and so it is absolutely right that people still fight and shout and stamp their feet and argue and debate and insist that gay content be given the same footing as straight conent in video games, in film, in literature, in life.

The arguments that generally go 'but gays are such a minority, we can't include content for all minorities' are missing the point. This isn't about adding a 1:1 ratio - or any kind of ratio - of hetero:****** content in this game. It's about begging, hopeing, arguing, and yes, insisting, that people just see it as more content. More options. More playing styles. Because gay is the same as straight, it just has different genitalia.

It is a shame the lack of gay content has affected some people's enjoyment of the game. I guess the reasons for that are myriad: there's Bioware's reputation to date on gay content; there's the evidence gay content was planned for both games, written, acted, animated, but cut; and there's also the fact that our society is at a stage where gay rights have made such strides in gaining not just legal equality but societal equality that it is fair to expect that to be reflected in our entertainment media.

I have no doubt I won't be changing the world on a gaming forum either, but heck I'm gonna have fun trying

(Also, I'll never cross a picket line. Not on your nelly. Workers of the world unite, etc )

Modifié par catabuca, 08 avril 2010 - 06:07 .

[catabuca]

I need me to join some new forums so I can use "gay is the same as straight, it just has different genitalia" as my tagline.

[Heavensrun]

I was asked to cross-post this from the "Bioware, you have some explaining to do" thread, so here it is.  At least, I -think- this is what I was asked to cross-post, and where I was asked to cross post it.  He was a bit vague, and I'd done several posts in the past few minuites.  <.<

Ah well.  It's relevant either way.  ;p

(nameremoved) wrote...

I like the characters the way they are. There doesn't have to be a token gay person just like there doesn't have to be a person of every race on the Normandy.

I'm going to assume that you're a white straight male.

We live in a time of relatively -incredible- tolerance (in the western world, anyway) where for the most part, gays are allowed to live their lives and be part of society relatively unmolested by homophobes and violent bigots.

60 years ago, you could be beaten to death for being gay, and the police would probably ignore it.

20 years ago, you could still get your butt kicked.  Things today are much, much better, but there is still a practice in hollywood and the game industry of deliberate exclusion.  Gays make up a small percentage of the population, yes, but there are over 20 people on the Normandy.  Statistically, at least a couple of them should be gay.  Others might be open minded.  That's not tokenism, that's -representation-. 

It's also an established fact that Shep is the almighty badass of the universe.  It's not hard to imagine some open minded people being cool with bending their orientation around such a special case.  ;p

Going back to my assumption about your race/gender/prefference:

If the Normandy had a crew that was 70% female, would that seem odd to you?  What if everyone was black?  Would you feel excluded, as a white person, from a future where, with no apparent explanation, no one like you seems to be around?  Gay/Lesbian/straight gamers feel excluded from ME2.  There's nothing wrong with asking to be -included-.  None of us have gone around making unreasonable demands.  My only complaint, really, is with Bioware's obvious PR spin answers to the question.

Why is it that Female Shepard's sexuality is absolutely allowed to be flexed, (regardless of the status of asari gender, they look female, sound female, act female, and have female parts, and only a lesbian shepard would be attracted to Liara)  While male shepard's is "a fixed aspect of the character"?  Muzyka's answers are obvious PR spin for "we excluded gay males because we don't want to drive away our mainstream market".  In fact, once upon a time, that was what they actually -said-, and I was fine with that.  I find the BS excuses to be patronizing.  It irritates me.

[catabuca]

Thank you I think the other thread will be locked in time. It's too inflammatory, and we have a good discussion going on here already.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

catabuca wrote...

The answer absolutely is education, education, education (I feel like a Labour candidate *shudder*). It shouldn't be an issue. BW should be able to include gay content and it just be there, just as straight content is. It involves a paradigm shift in the way we think about these things, you're right - as a society. No one gives it another thought when there is straight content, because it's seen as just content. Gay content should also be seen as just content. But unfortunately, we're not there yet, and so it is absolutely right that people still fight and shout and stamp their feet and argue and debate and insist that gay content be given the same footing as straight conent in video games, in film, in literature, in life.

The arguments that generally go 'but gays are such a minority, we can't include content for all minorities' are missing the point. This isn't about adding a 1:1 ratio - or any kind of ratio - of hetero:****** content in this game. It's about begging, hopeing, arguing, and yes, insisting, that people just see it as more content. More options. More playing styles. Because gay is the same as straight, it just has different genitalia.

QFT.

[Ryzaki]

I thought MShepxKaidan was taken out of ME1 due to time constraints? (Well that's the reason they originally said).

[SorenTrigg]

Ryzaki wrote...

I thought MShepxKaidan was taken out of ME1 due to time constraints? (Well that's the reason they originally said).

Well, yes, that is a reason that was given quite awhile ago.
But that does not account for ME2.

[catabuca]

Ryzaki wrote...

I thought MShepxKaidan was taken out of ME1 due to time constraints? (Well that's the reason they originally said).

I don't think, at this point, we can take any of these reasons with anything more than a pinch of salt.

But even if that was the case, I think it's a fair question to ask why heterosexuality is seemingly privileged by the willingness to spend time and money on it (especially as more resources went on it in ME2).