Ce sujet est fermé
catabuca wrote...
I think you're at sixes and sevens with JD here, because as far as I am aware he supports m/m romances in the game, but is simply being pragmatic about the possible reasons why they are excluded at present.
Ryzaki wrote...
My Password is Banana wrote...
No!!!!!
No one likes two hot dogs rubbin against each-other!!!
Two chicks is OK tho
The optimist in me says this is sarcasm but the cynic is once again fearing for the human race. <_<
slimgrin wrote...
So you like Tacos?
Really. Just put both the hotdogs and the taco's in there. People can choose for themsleves, as long as BioWare wants to market the game to discerning adults.
Mimaiselphenai wrote...
catabuca wrote...
I think you're at sixes and sevens with JD here, because as far as I am aware he supports m/m romances in the game, but is simply being pragmatic about the possible reasons why they are excluded at present.
I think he's just trying to pick a fight where there isn't one. =P
Guest_slimgrin_*
Mimaiselphenai wrote...
slimgrin wrote...
So you like Tacos?
Really. Just put both the hotdogs and the taco's in there. People can choose for themsleves, as long as BioWare wants to market the game to discerning adults.
Or you can grind the two hotdogs up and sprinkle them in the taco shells like ground beef, and then they're tacos!
Wait...what...what are we talking about?
I...uh...
If you would deny two women or two men in love the right to simply walk down the street holding hands - an act that still results in verbal abuse and carries the threat of violence - because you don't like it, then yes, you're the bad guy.ReconTeam wrote...
And I am supposed to be the bad guy because I believe homosexuals should keep such business behind closed doors and not in the public realm?
Modifié par Atomic Space Vixen, 08 avril 2010 - 10:33 .
Mimaiselphenai wrote...
I know you were directing your post at someone else, but I'm bored. =P
First of all, I think the main argument is that there's already F/F romance in the game. So it's not that Bioware is excluding homosexual content entirely, just one facet of it. That would be the "injustice," if I'm not mistaken. Female on female romance scenes in the game are just dandy, but two men still carries unnecessary stigma. If they're going to include one side of it, why not go all the way? It's the inclusion of being able to romance Kelly Chambers, a human female, that sets ME2 apart from ME1, as you could only romance one Asari in the game (though let's not kid ourselves, that's just as much lesbianism as anything else). I hate having to come back to that point over and over, but people keep overlooking it.
As for SecondLife, there's a big difference between obscurring your gender in an online game or any form of social interaction over the internet, and your own private experience in a single player game. Not that I have a stake in what people do in the former either way.
And lastly, this thread is for the sake of discussion, right? Nobody's trying to raise hell, just expressing their opinions. I think it's safe to say the majority of players for same sex romances won't stop buying Bioware products if it's not included in ME2 DLC or ME3.
Atomic Space Vixen wrote...
If you would deny two women or two men in love the right to simply walk down the street holding hands - an act that still results in verbal abuse and carries the threat of violence - because you don't like it, then yes, you're the bad guy.ReconTeam wrote...
And I am supposed to be the bad guy because I believe homosexuals should keep such business behind closed doors and not in the public realm?
Here's the thing about homosexuality or bisexuality - sex is only part of it. If it were only about sex, then there would be no same-sex marriage debate going on.
What you are doing is asking people to keep a part of them that's as vital as your heterosexuality and all that comes with it hidden from the public eye. No holding hands, no kisses, no dating, no arm around the shoulders at a movie, no public declarations of your love (weddings), none of that. If you think all that should be behind closed doors, then I'm sorry to say you are the bad guy.
Personally, I'm offended by public displays of left-handedness and would rather see that kept behind closed-doors. They can be as sinister as they want at home, but out in the open? They should use their right hands like everyone else. /sarcasm
) should be behind closed doors? Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 avril 2010 - 10:37 .
Siansonea II wrote...
For what it's worth, I don't think Bioware would show hot dogs or tacos, just people reaching into the refrigerator.
slimgrin wrote...
Siansonea II wrote...
slimgrin wrote...
Geso wrote...
Jacob's a nice guy. And nobody likes nice guys.Especially women.
Very true.
Actually I don't think this is necessarily true. Kaidan is/was a nice guy, and I do like that character.
All the Kaiden's I know have two things in common: Ignored by the ladies, and abused by their peers. Sometimes being nice is being weak, and people respond accordingly( that whole human nature thing is just so unaviodable.)
Guest_slimgrin_*
Siansonea II wrote...
For what it's worth, I don't think Bioware would show hot dogs or tacos, just people reaching into the refrigerator.
................Thats no fun.
Ryzaki wrote...
Siansonea II wrote...
For what it's worth, I don't think Bioware would show hot dogs or tacos, just people reaching into the refrigerator.
Pfft. With their new Pg-13 nonsense we'd be lucky to see that much.
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Pick a fight? No, but I suppose, as catabuca alluded to, I can be pragmatic at times and I don't mind debating sometimes either.Mimaiselphenai wrote...
I think he's just trying to pick a fight where there isn't one. =Pcatabuca wrote...
I think you're at sixes and sevens with JD here, because as far as I am aware he supports m/m romances in the game, but is simply being pragmatic about the possible reasons why they are excluded at present.
Modifié par Charsen, 08 avril 2010 - 10:48 .
Guest_slimgrin_*
Sabul wrote...
From what I understand Canadians do not even use the same rating system as Americans. So that PG-13 comment seems off. Or has BioWare magically stopped being Canadian as well?
MsKlaussen wrote...
I do see the inequality that people are referring to. Please don't assume that I don't or that I'm ignoring it.
I think the difference for me at least lies in the definition of "injustice". Women being beaten in town squares in the Middle East for not having their heads covered and having parts of their bodies mutilated under the auspices of population control and some religious order that sex be about procreation and nothing else? That's "injustice".
Not having the Miranda LI angle available to my FemShep is "a bummer".
The stigma? Yes, it exists, and not even close to just in video games. The fact is, a lot of the world simply doesn't view girl-girl relationships as truly gay. It may sound ridiculous, but it isn't. Most of the crap put forth in media was formed at an early stage by men, and so were the ideals. It is the male idea of women as touchy-feely, emotional, weak willed, lead with the heart type creatures who give and accept love unconditionally that allows for this sort of thing. These attributes and this sort of flexibility is not attributed to men, so "gay" begins at men "behaving badly" to those who edit the film. The same assumptions have made so-called "house husbands" the target of ridicule from other men.
There is in fact, a big difference between obscuring your gender in social interaction over the internet, such as SecondLife, and one's personal experience in ME. Bioware never gave anyone reason to expect that they decide "everything"
about who their character is. They're Shepard. Second Life's title explains quite well what the point is and the Lindens make liberal use of such concepts as being limited only by your imagination. It would be foolhardy and naive of anyone to expect that in an environment like that, people who will presumably be keeping their interaction over the internet will limit themselves to what they offer in real life.
A predesigned single player game franchise with a defined lead character lends nothing to such expectations.
MsKlaussen wrote...
Mimaiselphenai wrote...
I know you were directing your post at someone else, but I'm bored. =P
First of all, I think the main argument is that there's already F/F romance in the game. So it's not that Bioware is excluding homosexual content entirely, just one facet of it. That would be the "injustice," if I'm not mistaken. Female on female romance scenes in the game are just dandy, but two men still carries unnecessary stigma. If they're going to include one side of it, why not go all the way? It's the inclusion of being able to romance Kelly Chambers, a human female, that sets ME2 apart from ME1, as you could only romance one Asari in the game (though let's not kid ourselves, that's just as much lesbianism as anything else). I hate having to come back to that point over and over, but people keep overlooking it.
As for SecondLife, there's a big difference between obscurring your gender in an online game or any form of social interaction over the internet, and your own private experience in a single player game. Not that I have a stake in what people do in the former either way.
And lastly, this thread is for the sake of discussion, right? Nobody's trying to raise hell, just expressing their opinions. I think it's safe to say the majority of players for same sex romances won't stop buying Bioware products if it's not included in ME2 DLC or ME3.
I do see the inequality that people are referring to. Please don't assume that I don't or that I'm ignoring it.
I think the difference for me at least lies in the definition of "injustice". Women being beaten in town squares in the Middle East for not having their heads covered and having parts of their bodies mutilated under the auspices of population control and some religious order that sex be about procreation and nothing else? That's "injustice".
Not having the Miranda LI angle available to my FemShep is "a bummer".
The stigma? Yes, it exists, and not even close to just in video games. The fact is, a lot of the world simply doesn't view girl-girl relationships as truly gay. It may sound ridiculous, but it isn't. Most of the crap put forth in media was formed at an early stage by men, and so were the ideals. It is the male idea of women as touchy-feely, emotional, weak willed, lead with the heart type creatures who give and accept love unconditionally that allows for this sort of thing. These attributes and this sort of flexibility is not attributed to men, so "gay" begins at men "behaving badly" to those who edit the film. The same assumptions have made so-called "house husbands" the target of ridicule from other men.
There is a whole lot to reverse and redefine. Maybe it's just me but what about Bioware would single it out as atypical in this regard?
There is in fact, a big difference between obscuring your gender in social interaction over the internet, such as SecondLife, and one's personal experience in ME. Bioware never gave anyone reason to expect that they decide "everything"
about who their character is. They're Shepard. Second Life's title explains quite well what the point is and the Lindens make liberal use of such concepts as being limited only by your imagination. It would be foolhardy and naive of anyone to expect that in an environment like that, people who will presumably be keeping their interaction over the internet will limit themselves to what they offer in real life.
A predesigned single player game franchise with a defined lead character lends nothing to such expectations.
Now, there probably is in fact, more to the "why" of this than what is mentioned by Bioware. So the question remains. Is this important enough to be a buying factor? If not, it will never be important enough to Bioware to answer.
Modifié par Siansonea II, 08 avril 2010 - 10:56 .
This is true. I remember reading about the European version of the Witcher being sold in shops for a good deal extra as the American version edited the nudity cards. Selling quite successfully to the people who did not just download an EU patch.slimgrin wrote...
Good point. CD Projekt red apparantly had to make all sorts of concessions to other countries for the Witcher.
Germans - hated blood and animal killing
Americans - prudish about language and sex ( no surprise there)
Meanwhile, I screaming, IT IS A VIDEO GAME....LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE!!
Siansonea II wrote...
MsKlaussen wrote...
Mimaiselphenai wrote...
I know you were directing your post at someone else, but I'm bored. =P
First of all, I think the main argument is that there's already F/F romance in the game. So it's not that Bioware is excluding homosexual content entirely, just one facet of it. That would be the "injustice," if I'm not mistaken. Female on female romance scenes in the game are just dandy, but two men still carries unnecessary stigma. If they're going to include one side of it, why not go all the way? It's the inclusion of being able to romance Kelly Chambers, a human female, that sets ME2 apart from ME1, as you could only romance one Asari in the game (though let's not kid ourselves, that's just as much lesbianism as anything else). I hate having to come back to that point over and over, but people keep overlooking it.
As for SecondLife, there's a big difference between obscurring your gender in an online game or any form of social interaction over the internet, and your own private experience in a single player game. Not that I have a stake in what people do in the former either way.
And lastly, this thread is for the sake of discussion, right? Nobody's trying to raise hell, just expressing their opinions. I think it's safe to say the majority of players for same sex romances won't stop buying Bioware products if it's not included in ME2 DLC or ME3.
I do see the inequality that people are referring to. Please don't assume that I don't or that I'm ignoring it.
I think the difference for me at least lies in the definition of "injustice". Women being beaten in town squares in the Middle East for not having their heads covered and having parts of their bodies mutilated under the auspices of population control and some religious order that sex be about procreation and nothing else? That's "injustice".
Not having the Miranda LI angle available to my FemShep is "a bummer".
The stigma? Yes, it exists, and not even close to just in video games. The fact is, a lot of the world simply doesn't view girl-girl relationships as truly gay. It may sound ridiculous, but it isn't. Most of the crap put forth in media was formed at an early stage by men, and so were the ideals. It is the male idea of women as touchy-feely, emotional, weak willed, lead with the heart type creatures who give and accept love unconditionally that allows for this sort of thing. These attributes and this sort of flexibility is not attributed to men, so "gay" begins at men "behaving badly" to those who edit the film. The same assumptions have made so-called "house husbands" the target of ridicule from other men.
There is a whole lot to reverse and redefine. Maybe it's just me but what about Bioware would single it out as atypical in this regard?
There is in fact, a big difference between obscuring your gender in social interaction over the internet, such as SecondLife, and one's personal experience in ME. Bioware never gave anyone reason to expect that they decide "everything"
about who their character is. They're Shepard. Second Life's title explains quite well what the point is and the Lindens make liberal use of such concepts as being limited only by your imagination. It would be foolhardy and naive of anyone to expect that in an environment like that, people who will presumably be keeping their interaction over the internet will limit themselves to what they offer in real life.
A predesigned single player game franchise with a defined lead character lends nothing to such expectations.
Now, there probably is in fact, more to the "why" of this than what is mentioned by Bioware. So the question remains. Is this important enough to be a buying factor? If not, it will never be important enough to Bioware to answer.
Of course there are always bigger fish to fry, that is why in my original post I mentioned injustices big and small. Smaller injustices should not be ignored, they lead to larger ones. When people can be pushed to overlook just one more little thing, pretty soon they realize they've been persuaded to overlook some pretty big things.
It is interesting how people keep coming back to the point that Shepard is a predefined character. No he isn't. Neither is she. Shepard can represent a multitude of different types, but one option expressly forbidden is male homosexuality. "The love that dare not speak its name". Honestly, if they had left out something more innocuous, like being unable to customize the ear size, no one would question the intent, it would be assumed to be an oversight. Many of Shepard's circumstances are predefined, but he isn't predefined. Neither is she.
Yes, it is just a video game, and compared to genocide and human rights in InsertCountryNameHere perhaps it is little more than a slight, a slap in the face. But those slaps still sting, even if they do no 'harm'.
You ask if the exclusion of m/m content is enough to keep us from purchasing future Bioware products, and for me the answer is yes and no. I will probably finish out the Mass Effect series, but any future games Bioware produces will be evaluated thoroughly before purchase. If those games have been sanitized simply to be certified fresh by Fox News, I will definitely pass on those titles.
I do not participate in SecondLife, so I have no comment about it one way or the other.
Guest_slimgrin_*
Sabul wrote...
This is true. I remember reading about the European version of the Witcher being sold in shops for a good deal extra as the American version edited the nudity cards. Selling quite successfully to the people who did not just download an EU patch.slimgrin wrote...
Good point. CD Projekt red apparantly had to make all sorts of concessions to other countries for the Witcher.
Germans - hated blood and animal killing
Americans - prudish about language and sex ( no surprise there)
Meanwhile, I screaming, IT IS A VIDEO GAME....LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE!!
Retour en haut