7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabul]

slimgrin wrote...

If I have to, I will DRIVE to Poland for an uncensored copy of TW2. And that will be a wet ride.

I imagine you could just order it online. I still need to play the first if I ever remember to purchase it. Seem to be getting a bit off topic though.

Modifié par Sabul, 08 avril 2010 - 11:08 .

[Sabul]

slimgrin wrote...

Yes. My apologies folks. I tend to ramble. Thank you for being patient with me. Off to do some writing.

Is not a problem. I was enjoying it. If you wish to continue to speak of the game you are welcome to message me. I just have been absent from this thread for a while and do not want to cause an issue on my return.

Modifié par Sabul, 08 avril 2010 - 11:20 .

[Mimaiselphenai]

Sabul wrote...

and do not want to cause an issue on my return.

Too late. Torches and pitch forks are already being handed out.

[Sabul]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Too late. Torches and pitch forks are already being handed out.

To think I have not even engaged in a 30 page debate yet! :c

[BellatrixLugosi]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Sabul wrote...

and do not want to cause an issue on my return.

Too late. Torches and pitch forks are already being handed out.

Do you have any 5 pronged ones?

well sabul. Contribute!!!!  (waits patiently)

[MsKlaussen]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

What makes you think the character is predesigned? You get to choose your character's appearance and gender. You get to choose their moral code. You get to choose who you get close to. You choose your class, your skill points, your weapons. Everything is a choice. Sure, your character's name is Shepard no matter what you do, but that's largely part of the dialog experience. Are your decisions linear? Maybe, but not predesigned. Your Shepard is not the canon Shepard. It's your Shepard within the scope of the game's overarching plot.

Considering the ginormous list of alterations I could want to make simply in Shepard's appearance that I have no opportunity to make, not to mention the list of decisions I may want to make but can't, or would want to make later or sooner, but can't, I would have to say that Shepard is not only contained within the games plot, but within the boundaries of the developer's concept for what he or she should and can be.

As Shepard, can I be shorter? Taller? Can I be pleasantly plump? I'm a Vanguard. Can I learn to use a combat drone? Can I wear my hair long and down? Can I change my bust size? I hate my puny handgun - can I pick up a sniper rifle? Can I wear a dress without hacking the system or buying DLC? Can I be left handed (I'm closeted lefty-curious well, until now)? Can I swim? Can I learn to fly the Normandy? I have severe moral objections to Cerberus. Can I go it without them?

Yes, some of this could be considered outrageously insignificant or not relevant in the bigger scheme of things, but then significance at least, is relative isn't it?

All of these things are in my control when "everything is a choice". I have a blank canvas, and I can change that canvas as I see fit, when I see fit. Who my character is has no bearing, repercussions, or dependence,  whatsoever,  on what my character can and cannot do, or what my character experiences or will never experience, from a game design standpoint. Conceptually, there is nothing in my character design that offers advantages or disadvantages within my gaming experience. That is the complete freedom of SecondLife and the complete freedom to be you, or anyone else you want to be. That is not ME.

[Sabul]

BellatrixLugosi: I would do so but it feels like all the same arguments I had several topics ago. No one ever posts something new. It is getting late and all that. Perhaps tomorrow if I remember I returned.

Modifié par Sabul, 08 avril 2010 - 11:32 .

[Atomic Space Vixen]

Ryzaki wrote...




Am I horrible person for thinking public displays of affection for everyone (particular tonsel hockey I don't care who you are do not want. ) should be behind closed doors? 
Gay/straight/whateves Do not want. Period.

Holding hands fine whatever. But I really, really do not want or need to see you stick your tongue down someone else's throats or molest them. Makes me a prude? Fine whatever. Still do not want. <_<

I was so sure that someone might take that away from what I was saying that I almost put in a disclaimer, but left it out in hopes that it wouldn't happen.
The closest I came to mentioning making out in public was the word "kisses", but I did deliberately use the word "kisses" instead of "kissing" (in that vain hope that someone wouldn't make the leap to lewd kind of display you're referring to). Not all kisses are "tonsil hockey". Anyone frowning on a straight couple giving each other a quick kiss goodbye as they part at the airport is so repressed that any romance in the game would be too much. A gay couple does it? Suddenly they're shoving their "lifestyle" down people's throats and are opening themselves up to all sorts of potential grief.

[SorenTrigg]

Don't bring up the 'I cannot make x choice, so your want is invalid.' argument, please.

If there are things you want changed about the game, go make a thread about it, like we are doing.

[FataliTensei]

SorenTrigg wrote...

Don't bring up the 'I cannot make x choice, so your want is invalid.' argument, please.
If there are things you want changed about the game, go make a thread about it, like we are doing.

THIS ^

[Ryzaki]

Atomic Space Vixen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...




Am I horrible person for thinking public displays of affection for everyone (particular tonsel hockey I don't care who you are do not want. ) should be behind closed doors? 
Gay/straight/whateves Do not want. Period.

Holding hands fine whatever. But I really, really do not want or need to see you stick your tongue down someone else's throats or molest them. Makes me a prude? Fine whatever. Still do not want. <_<

I was so sure that someone might take that away from what I was saying that I almost put in a disclaimer, but left it out in hopes that it wouldn't happen.
The closest I came to mentioning making out in public was the word "kisses", but I did deliberately use the word "kisses" instead of "kissing" (in that vain hope that someone wouldn't make the leap to lewd kind of display you're referring to). Not all kisses are "tonsil hockey". Anyone frowning on a straight couple giving each other a quick kiss goodbye as they part at the airport is so repressed that any romance in the game would be too much. A gay couple does it? Suddenly they're shoving their "lifestyle" down people's throats and are opening themselves up to all sorts of potential grief.

I know that. I have no problem with quick kisses and hugging no matter who it is. But I had to deal with the slobbering smacking disgusting noises as these two idiots sat beside me that ugh. *shudders* Then they practically started petting each other and I and nearly everyone else in the bus was like:  You don't think that's a little much? 

I don't consider myself repressed. But that's probably just that experience talking.

And no I don't feel like someone shoving their relationship and lifestyle (I always found that lulz  a gay couple doing the same exact thing a straight couple does is somehow "OMG TOO MUCH11!!" ) tis hysterical.

[Sabul]

SorenTrigg: No man it is totally valid. People cannot play a transvestite Shepard so your desires mean nothing. hurr

Modifié par Sabul, 08 avril 2010 - 11:42 .

[BellatrixLugosi]

Sabul wrote...

SorenTrigg: No man it is totally valid. People cannot play a transvestite Shepard so your desires mean nothing. hurr

I think you mean transgendered shepard.  But Im pretty sure I can make one that at least looks like a MtF shepard, and FtM shepard........ill get back to you on that 

[SirGladiator]

Obviously there is no game, nor could there ever be a game, where you could do literally everything you could possibly think of, that has no bearing on what should or shouldn't be in a game. Clearly the Devs wanted our romances in the gme, and a suit didn't, so its really more accurate to say one person imposed his version of Shep on us (or rather he 'tried' to, since they still managed to keep Kelly and a few other nice things in the game), rather than saying that the writers wrote Shepard a certain way, because they didn't. Shepard was clearly intended to be whatever you wanted Shepard to be, thats the way Shepard was written and designed in ME2 before they were forced to cut the romances out.

[Sabul]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

I think you mean transgendered shepard.  But Im pretty sure I can make one that at least looks like a MtF shepard, and FtM shepard........ill get back to you on that 

No I mean transvestite. How would you know your Shepard is transgendered if the surgery went over well? I would imagine in the future the surgical technique they use would make it impossible to tell. No matter the era a male Shepard in women's clothing would be something you would notice.

Modifié par Sabul, 08 avril 2010 - 11:48 .

[BellatrixLugosi]

Sabul wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

I think you mean transgendered shepard.  But Im pretty sure I can make one that at least looks like a MtF shepard, and FtM shepard........ill get back to you on that 

No I mean transvestite. How would you know your Shepard is transgendered if the surgery went over well? I would imagine in the future the surgical technique they use would make it impossible to tell. No matter the era a male Shepard in women's clothing would be something you would notice.

why is it I always fail to take in account that technology is BETTER in the future...........jesus lol

[MsKlaussen]

Always the plan B of the closed minded. When push comes to shove, mock.

For those attempting to redefine my point to mean that because I listed hypothetical changes that can't be made, that their entire wish list is invalid, whatever it takes for you to feel righteous hey, go for it. But as for the whining about how broken up you are about not being able to have intelligent conversations with people with opposing viewpoints, save it. I've not mocked one of you, or told any of you that you had no right to your opinions. Funny how when your bluff is called and someone tries to engage you intelligently you become just what you despise: a mocking, labeling, mob that views anything not in line with their views as worthless.

Why don't I run and go make a thread about what I don't like? Because it's more fun to concentrate on what I do like, and when I get bored with that, I have a big a** power button to deal with the undesireable. It's really that simple.

Good luck with the war.

[Ryzaki]

MsKlaussen wrote...

Always the plan B of the closed minded. When push comes to shove, mock.

For those attempting to redefine my point to mean that because I listed hypothetical changes that can't be made, that their entire wish list is invalid, whatever it takes for you to feel righteous hey, go for it. But as for the whining about how broken up you are about not being able to have intelligent conversations with people with opposing viewpoints, save it. I've not mocked one of you, or told any of you that you had no right to your opinions. Funny how when your bluff is called and someone tries to engage you intelligently you become just what you despise: a mocking, labeling, mob that views anything not in line with their views as worthless.

Why don't I run and go make a thread about what I don't like? Because it's more fun to concentrate on what I do like, and when I get bored with that, I have a big a** power button to deal with the undesireable. It's really that simple.

Good luck with the war.

Huh? Did I say something mocking? You have a valid point. But simply put there's always going to be something you *can't* do in a video game. This is one of those things that were already *in* the game and then taken *out*. Its not something the dev team overlocked or didn't even consider.

[BellatrixLugosi]

MsKlaussen wrote...

Always the plan B of the closed minded. When push comes to shove, mock.

For those attempting to redefine my point to mean that because I listed hypothetical changes that can't be made, that their entire wish list is invalid, whatever it takes for you to feel righteous hey, go for it. But as for the whining about how broken up you are about not being able to have intelligent conversations with people with opposing viewpoints, save it. I've not mocked one of you, or told any of you that you had no right to your opinions. Funny how when your bluff is called and someone tries to engage you intelligently you become just what you despise: a mocking, labeling, mob that views anything not in line with their views as worthless.

Why don't I run and go make a thread about what I don't like? Because it's more fun to concentrate on what I do like, and when I get bored with that, I have a big a** power button to deal with the undesireable. It's really that simple.

Good luck with the war.

Thats a rather closed minded viewpoint no offense.    But then again everyone is closed minded in their own way.  Relax

[Mimaiselphenai]

MsKlaussen wrote...

Considering the ginormous list of alterations I could want to make simply in Shepard's appearance that I have no opportunity to make, not to mention the list of decisions I may want to make but can't, or would want to make later or sooner, but can't, I would have to say that Shepard is not only contained within the games plot, but within the boundaries of the developer's concept for what he or she should and can be.

As Shepard, can I be shorter? Taller? Can I be pleasantly plump? I'm a Vanguard. Can I learn to use a combat drone? Can I wear my hair long and down? Can I change my bust size? I hate my puny handgun - can I pick up a sniper rifle? Can I wear a dress without hacking the system or buying DLC? Can I be left handed (I'm closeted lefty-curious well, until now)? Can I swim? Can I learn to fly the Normandy? I have severe moral objections to Cerberus. Can I go it without them?

Yes, some of this could be considered outrageously insignificant or not relevant in the bigger scheme of things, but then significance at least, is relative isn't it?

All of these things are in my control when "everything is a choice". I have a blank canvas, and I can change that canvas as I see fit, when I see fit. Who my character is has no bearing, repercussions, or dependence,  whatsoever,  on what my character can and cannot do, or what my character experiences or will never experience, from a game design standpoint. Conceptually, there is nothing in my character design that offers advantages or disadvantages within my gaming experience. That is the complete freedom of SecondLife and the complete freedom to be you, or anyone else you want to be. That is not ME.

Mass Effect is a video game, not a virtual social network. There's obviously going to be limitations. Everything you've mentioned is a limitation within that scope, not an excuse for  the model of Commander Shepard. Yes, your hairstyles are limited, but that's either due to simpler and cheaper programming, or because Shepard is military. Who knows? Whatever the case, female Shepard can romance a WOMAN. Why is it okay for her to be "compromised" by homosexual behavior, and not a male Shepard? So, is your basis that because you can't fully customize your character precisely how you want, that automatically means they're "predefined?"

In Fallout, I had absolutely no control over my character's appearance other than what armor to wear, yet I had complete and utter control over how I dealt with people, and who lived or died. The character framework was the "Vault Dweller," but he was mine. Mass Effect may be a bit more limited, but if Bioware wanted you to be who they wanted you to be, there wouldn't be an option for a custom Shepard in the first place, or a dialog wheel.

[Sabul]

I think it was directed at me Ryzaki. Suppose I did go to mocking somewhat quickly. I just did not feel like typing up the same old replies to the same old arguments. Still was rather rude of me. I apologise MsKlaussen.

[Ryzaki]

MsKlaussen wrote...

I do see the inequality that people are referring to. Please don't assume that I don't or that I'm ignoring it.

I think the difference for me at least lies in the definition of "injustice". Women being beaten in town squares in the Middle East for not having their heads covered and having parts of their bodies mutilated under the auspices of population control and some religious order that sex be about procreation and nothing else? That's "injustice".

Not having the Miranda LI angle available to my FemShep is "a bummer".

True its not an injustice it is to me at least vastly hypocritical. So yes I feel that people should call BW on it. (What makes this worse is that BW decides to hide behind the whole Asari are asexual (another thing someone needs to learn what Asexual means before using it. <_<) and therefore despite being female its not lesbian sex.

The stigma? Yes, it exists, and not even close to just in video games. The fact is, a lot of the world simply doesn't view girl-girl relationships as truly gay. It may sound ridiculous, but it isn't. Most of the crap put forth in media was formed at an early stage by men, and so were the ideals. It is the male idea of women as touchy-feely, emotional, weak willed, lead with the heart type creatures who give and accept love unconditionally that allows for this sort of thing. These attributes and this sort of flexibility is not attributed to men, so "gay" begins at men "behaving badly" to those who edit the film. The same assumptions have made so-called "house husbands" the target of ridicule from other men.

I agree with this. And yeah its annoying I'm happy to see though that steps no matter how small are being made to counter it. BW had the opportunity to make another small step but fumbled it.

There is a whole lot to reverse and redefine. Maybe it's just me but what about Bioware would single it out as atypical in this regard?

There is in fact, a big difference between obscuring your gender in social interaction over the internet, such as SecondLife, and one's personal experience in ME. Bioware never gave anyone reason to expect that they decide "everything"
about who their character is. They're Shepard. Second Life's title explains quite well what the point is and the Lindens make liberal use of such concepts as being limited only by your imagination. It would be foolhardy and naive of anyone to expect that in an environment like that, people who will presumably be keeping their interaction over the internet will limit themselves to what they offer in real life.

Of course not Shep is as predefined as the Warden is. But once again if they really feel that Shep is predefined to be a heterosexual why bother at all to give us options in his love life?

A predesigned single player game franchise with a defined lead character lends nothing to such expectations.

Now, there probably is in fact, more to the "why" of this than what is mentioned by Bioware. So the question remains. Is this important enough to be a buying factor? If not, it will never be important enough to Bioware to answer.

Of course not because the character isn't supposed to be "you". A defined lead character like Solid Snake for MGS needs no input for the player and his decisions other than what weapons he uses. (and even then its a toss in the air)

Though the bottom line is that this whole thread's purpose is to tell BW that it is a wanted option. Sure its not important enough not to buy the game (was the Tali romance option or Mako important enough not to buy the game over?  ) but its still something they can add to increase player enjoyment. There is no game limitation or lore reason why it would not be added.

At the end of the day this is a game nothing more nothing less. BW did give us a heap of choices romantic and otherwise. We just want another option. It doesn't have to be overly important to the game for us to express a desire for it to be placed in.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 avril 2010 - 12:23 .

[Ryzaki]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...
Mass Effect is a video game, not a virtual social network. There's obviously going to be limitations. Everything you've mentioned is a limitation within that scope, not an excuse for  the model of Commander Shepard. Yes, your hairstyles are limited, but that's either due to simpler and cheaper programming, or because Shepard is military. Who knows? Whatever the case, female Shepard can romance a WOMAN. Why is it okay for her to be "compromised" by homosexual behavior, and not a male Shepard? So, is your basis that because you can't fully customize your character precisely how you want, that automatically means they're "predefined?"

In Fallout, I had absolutely no control over my character's appearance other than what armor to wear, yet I had complete and utter control over how I dealt with people, and who lived or died. The character framework was the "Vault Dweller," but he was mine. Mass Effect may be a bit more limited, but if Bioware wanted you to be who they wanted you to be, there wouldn't be an option for a custom Shepard in the first place, or a dialog wheel.

Damn you! I was just about to get on that.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 avril 2010 - 12:20 .