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[Mimaiselphenai]

I was actually pleased that there was no nudity in most (or all, haven't seen them all yet) of the ME2 romance scenes. It made them more...romantic. Bonding, instead of feeling like a last ditch effort for the characters to get their groove on before going on another suicide mission.

[Ryzaki]

*shrugs* Tis personal preference I suppose.



>_>



I still can't help but get irritated over that PG-13 nonsense.

[Siansonea]

adembroski11 wrote...

Shouldn't it be as easy as including an openly gay male character in ME3 and allowing the player to not only decide if he is willing to pursue that option in dialogue, but perhaps even decide if he wants to bring him on board? Seems like an easy, catch all solution. Sure, it's only one option, but it's something.

An earlier post made the point that there hasn't been a gay male in a Bioware game, but every other sexuality has been explored. I am hesitant to put any particular moral obligation on the game company that has explored this avenue much, much farther than any other, that said, they are in a position to continue to be a leader in this respect.

As a die hard conservative, I support people's preference to avoid being exposed too it. What I don't support, however, is the desire to prevent others from doing as they please so long as they are not hurting anyone else. This is the essence of conservatism. Bioware has indicated a strong interest in including the gay and lesbian community as acknowledged consumers, and I applaud them in that decision. Those who are not comfortable with being exposed to gay content should have an "out", so to speak. In DA, you can simply choose to ignore Zev calling you "handsome", and the topic never comes up again so long as you don't pursue it- I have pursued it, just as another RP option within the game (I'm straight, for the record), but normally I just ignore it and move on. The same can be done for Shepard.

"Shepard is not gay!" ... YOUR Shepard is not gay. Hell, MY Shepard is not gay. I'm not gay, but I've been hit on by gay men. Hell, I'm a bouncer at a bar, I get hit on by a lot of gay men. So long as they're halfway sober, I take it as a compliment, and politely inform them that I am straight. There is no way that Shepard cannot do the same and retain his manly manhood of manliness.

Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to go drink a beer and smash the can against my forehead before eating glass pissing out a bonfire.

I am pleased to see heterosexual males who aren't threatened by bisexual or homosexual males. It seems odd to me that so many ostensibly heterosexual males don't share this attitude. If a man hits on you, you should be flattered, because that means women probably find you attractive as well. It doesn't have to devolve into an attack on your identity or anything. "Thanks buddy, but I like the girls" should be the extent of it. Drama averted.

I've been approached by lesbians before, and I have pretty much the same reaction, I have just thanked them for the compliment, told them I'm not lesbian or bisexual, and continued talking about something else. Easy breezy.

[FataliTensei]

Ryzaki wrote...

*shrugs* Tis personal preference I suppose.

>_>

I still can't help but get irritated over that PG-13 nonsense.

oh it pisses me off too

so much for this being a mature videogame

[Collider]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

I was actually pleased that there was no nudity in most (or all, haven't seen them all yet) of the ME2 romance scenes. It made them more...romantic. Bonding, instead of feeling like a last ditch effort for the characters to get their groove on before going on another suicide mission.

There is no nudity. The most nudity you get is Jack even outside of her romance lol. After that it's Miranda with her bra, then Jacob. The other romances do not show anything.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Collider wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Collider wrote...

Well put adem. Either have an option to tell the squad mate you don't roll that way, or have the gay romances/flirting initiated by the player directly and only.

Any romance, really. The call for clarity in dialogue and a ban on stealth romances are pretty much the only things everyone's agreed on.

Yes. I got locked into Ashley's romance. I'm all for subtletly, but eventually you get to this point where Ashley asks you if you're still interested (because apparently being nice to someone equals interested) and all of the answers said yes in different ways. I wasn't interested in the first place. We do not need some of the romance options to be more clear. For gay relationships, they could be more cautious, use dialogue options that really rule out just being nice.

"I'm interested in you romantically." Shepard does not have to be so blunt at all, but once you choose that option, he or she begins the romance with the character. Outside of people who do understand the english language so well, no one will misinterpret that.
The other option available at the same time could just be "I have to go." So there is further lack of misunderstanding.

Inclusion of an "I'm interested in you romantically" line actually works better for ME than in other Bioware games, because the wheel only hints at the dialogue Shepard actually delivers. The context for the player is blunt, but that doesn't mean delivery has to be.

I disagree that same-sex relationships should be treated differently, however. I think any of the potential LI dialogues could benefit from a clear statement of interest from the player's perspective (delivered dialogue could still be blunt or subtle as the writers decide). Setting the same-sex romances apart from that just reinforces the notion that they're something that needs to be or should be red-flagged.

Edit to fix my spelling. An apostrophe does not mean 'warning, 'S' approaching,' me. <_<

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 12 avril 2010 - 08:41 .

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

But if BioWare tries it ( and I hope they will ) you can be sure Fox news and other media outlets will come with thier scythes and insipid fear-mongering. Simply because the media has them pegged. I don't think BioWare wants to deal with this.

Yes.

Yes, they do.

They drink Fox's milkshake.

THEY DRINK IT UP!

I just want my actual nude love scenes back!

I don't care about nudity one way or the other. If it's included, I won't object, but I don't feel like it's absolutely necessary. For me, the point is to show a romantic connection, not necessarily sexual contact. If nudity is included, I think it should be handled much like it was in ME1 (which, let's face it, was really tame). Hints and suggestions of nudity are actually more romantic to me than anatomy lessons. I don't need to see every nook and cranny of Shepard and his/her paramour's bodies. There comes a point where it begins to feel a bit voyeuristic. If they keep it cinematic they should be okay.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Collider wrote...
After that it's Miranda with her bra, then Jacob. The other romances do not show anything.

I knew Jacob was a lingerie man.

[Collider]

Inclusion of an "I'm interested in you romantically" line actually works better for ME than in other Bioware games, because the wheel only hints at the dialogue Shepard actually delivers. The context for the player is blunt, but that doesn't mean delivery has to be.

That's my point. In DA there is less need to be blunt, because the options are exactly what the warden says. In Mass Effect, although most of the time it's obvious, sometimes it veer off in an undesired direction. Take femshep with Jacob for example, just talking to him sounds like femshep is trying to seduce him.

I disagree that same-sex relationships should be treated differently, however.

I don't think it's really that bad. We don't live in a world that is fully tolerant of homosexual relations. Being cautious is completely innocuous. If you are worried that some characters will not flirt with Shepard if Shepard does not express blunt interest, you don't have to. Choosing something like "interested romantically," could begin the active flirting and courting by the character to Shepard. It does not really pertain to me, because I'm already one who is going to be offended if someone of the same sex flirts with me, I could care less. The problem is that some people do, and not just because they find it gross, some people have religious reasons and it's not bad to respect them for that.

Setting the same-sex romances apart from that just reinforces the notion that they're something that needs to be or should be red-flagged.

That really depends on how obvious the difference is. It does not need to be obvious. The biggest point I'm trying to make is that we don't want Shepard flirting, especially flirting with the same sex character (dangerous territory) without players completely knowing beforehand and choosing to do it with that knowledge.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

I still don't understand how people accidentally find themselves in an ME romance. It always seems pretty obvious to me when it's going in that direction.

I found myself accidentally flirting with Kelly because I misinterpreted the dialogue wheel language. I think I've mentioned it before, but she talks about how she just wants to cuddle Garrus - I thought the wheel choice would go with a supportive statement (Yes, cuddle Garrus, you go girl), but it ended up being a request for the same treatment.

Also, as Collider noted, ME2 is particularly bad for 'I'm interested in learning about you' conversations equating to 'I'm interested in you' progression. I like to know about the characters on the ship, and that nearly ended up with Jack in my MShep's quarters. Not where I was expecting that to go.

[Collider]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Collider wrote...
After that it's Miranda with her bra, then Jacob. The other romances do not show anything.

I knew Jacob was a lingerie man.

Lol, I'm saying that Jacob is the most revealing romance scene aside from Miranda. He takes his shirt off.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Siansonea II wrote...
I don't care about nudity one way or the other. If it's included, I won't object, but I don't feel like it's absolutely necessary. For me, the point is to show a romantic connection, not necessarily sexual contact. If nudity is included, I think it should be handled much like it was in ME1 (which, let's face it, was really tame). Hints and suggestions of nudity are actually more romantic to me than anatomy lessons. I don't need to see every nook and cranny of Shepard and his/her paramour's bodies. There comes a point where it begins to feel a bit voyeuristic. If they keep it cinematic they should be okay.

I don't care too much myself, either. Though if I had to lean in any direction, I'd go with none at all. It feels more like the characters have, and want to build on, a cerebral bond. That they aren't "giving in" just yet. I've always been a fan of the whole "love the mind before the body" thing. Plus, the longer you wait, the better it is!

[Collider]

slimgrin wrote...
I feel that nudity can be well implemented. It was In ME1. I mean christ, were Shepard and Jack just dry humping?  
Give me a break. And the cheesy snuggling on the bed....ridiculous.

It is not needed, nor is it the most important. I was not saying that we absolutely get rid of it (even though I think it's smarter too) I am saying it's not needed nor important, what is important and "needed" is the emotion. ME1 was basically swapping models and using the same animations, nothing was different. I like the romances being diverse. I haven't done the Jack romance so I assume the dry humping is the renegade one. One cannot expect much far reaching emotion from a casual **** like that. Cheesy as snuggling is, it's preferable to nudity for the sake of nudity.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

Cata, basically I am arguing against people saying their imagination is the character. I could imagine that Grunt likes monster trunks, but would I be justified in saying that he does? No, not really. I would disagree more strongly if one said that x character likes x in all playthroughs, but I would still disagree with them saying that they do in one playthrough. X being something we are not given an indication in-game of actually being definitely true. It's kind of like me interpreting you are gay, straight, or bisexual. I can interpret, but I would still be unjustified in saying that you were gay or straight if all I was doing was imagining a backstory for you. True, you are not fictional, but similarly I do not know everything about you nor do I know everything about the characters.

The only real, honest to goodness 'canon' aspects to any character's personality is that which the writers have physically written and placed in the game. You're sustaining a false distinction between imagined and is.

I'm not saying 'Kaidan being gay in one of my playthroughs is canon', I'm saying he is gay in that playthrough. Because IS is not the same as CANON. There is zero evidence to suggest otherwise, and so until the writers say "no he isn't" then he is. For me.

Your final point simply confuses the matter in hand: Because you don't look at me and proclaim I am gay/straight because you don't know everything about me does not mean it isn't acceptable, nor perfectly normal, to do so in a role playing game. Take your comment 'True, you are not fictional' to its logical conclusion. Unless BW come out with a detailed history of Kaidan that outlines all his emotions, feelings, thoughts, everything he's ever done, said, or might do in the future, the only option we have is to create that ourselves. Some don't care about that sort of thing and just get on with shooting aliens, others care a great deal and think about it in great detail - most, I suspect, fall somewhere in between. Since it IS fiction, and since I am ENCOURAGED to role play, then it follows that it is perfectly acceptable to create these backstories and for them to be my fact. If new evidence comes from BioWare to the contrary then I have to adjust my story, but until then they are who I believe them to be. That doesn't mean I am suggesting that character is anything in your playthrough, or anyone else's either. I'm not playing their game, I don't care, and it doesn't impact on my game in one single way. I accept the fact that for other players Kaidan is straight, for some he is gay, and for others he is just some whiney dude with migraines they didn't talk to much and who they couldn't wait to kill on Virmire.

Again, having concrete knowledge about a character (canon) is not the same as saying 'X is like this'. And the distinction between 'is' and 'imagined' is a misleading one.

(As for Grunt liking monster trucks, until a dev/writer tells me otherwise, this is exactly who my Grunt is going to be from now on )

[Siansonea]

I will also imagine that my Grunt likes monster trucks. He is a child, after all.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Grunt probably would have loved the Mako.

[catabuca]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...


Inclusion of an "I'm interested in you romantically" line actually works better for ME than in other Bioware games, because the wheel only hints at the dialogue Shepard actually delivers. The context for the player is blunt, but that doesn't mean delivery has to be.

I disagree that same-sex relationships should be treated differently, however. I think any of the potential LI dialogues could benefit from a clear statement of interest from the player's perspective (delivered dialogue could still be blunt or subtle as the writers decide). Setting the same-sex romances apart from that just reinforces the notion that they're something that needs to be or should be red-flagged.

Edit to fix my spelling. An apostrophe does not mean 'warning, 'S' approaching,' me. <_<

Yep, agree with all of this. Romances should be handled in the same way, and that way should be clearer than some of the confusing ways currently on offer.

[Collider]

@cata, I feel like we're going in circles, and I still disagree with you saying that he is gay in your playthrough, because as you said, you're imagining it. The writers know more than we do, I am just disagreeing with projection. Better just to drop the subject really.

I'm not saying 'Kaidan being gay in one of my playthroughs is canon', I'm saying he is gay in that playthrough. Because IS is not the same as CANON. There is zero evidence to suggest otherwise, and so until the writers say "no he isn't" then he is. For me.

o_O Talking about Rana and reading novels about heroes falling for beautiful women is not an indication that he likes women? Or going "wow" in the strip clubs? Or talking about extranet fetish sites of Asari matriarchs (how did he know...?) Or telling Shepard that Liara is "easy on the eyes," and that he "saw her first"? I'm sure there are a few other examples.

[Collider]

Uh, we did not see the whole sex scene. It's OBVIOUS that she took her clothes off. We don't need to be shown. Saying it's unrealistic is just...come on. It's "unrealistic" that we don't see Shepard changing removing clothes when changing outfits, but we know Shepard did.

In ME1 the nudity really meant nothing, it was the same with all of the romance interests, some animations, nothing different. If they were adopting all values from the 1950's, we would not have Mass Effect to beginwith.

Modifié par Collider, 12 avril 2010 - 08:53 .

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Collider wrote...

Inclusion of an "I'm interested in you romantically" line actually works better for ME than in other Bioware games, because the wheel only hints at the dialogue Shepard actually delivers. The context for the player is blunt, but that doesn't mean delivery has to be.

That's my point. In DA there is less need to be blunt, because the options are exactly what the warden says. In Mass Effect, although most of the time it's obvious, sometimes it veer off in an undesired direction. Take femshep with Jacob for example, just talking to him sounds like femshep is trying to seduce him.

I disagree that same-sex relationships should be treated differently, however.

I don't think it's really that bad. We don't live in a world that is fully tolerant of homosexual relations. Being cautious is completely innocuous. If you are worried that some characters will not flirt with Shepard if Shepard does not express blunt interest, you don't have to. Choosing something like "interested romantically," could begin the active flirting and courting by the character to Shepard. It does not really pertain to me, because I'm already one who is going to be offended if someone of the same sex flirts with me, I could care less. The problem is that some people do, and not just because they find it gross, some people have religious reasons and it's not bad to respect them for that.

Setting the same-sex romances apart from that just reinforces the notion that they're something that needs to be or should be red-flagged.

That really depends on how obvious the difference is. It does not need to be obvious. The biggest point I'm trying to make is that we don't want Shepard flirting, especially flirting with the same sex character (dangerous territory) without players completely knowing beforehand and choosing to do it with that knowledge.

I take your point. I'm not opposed to the idea so much as disappointed and kind of angry that any such thing should be necessary. I still favour a clear overture from Shepard regardless of the object of her/his affection, though. And I definitely don't want to have to shut down every hetero romance to have a shot at any same-sex one; there's subtle, and then there's stealth bordering on easter egg territory.

[FataliTensei]

Collider wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
I feel that nudity can be well implemented. It was In ME1. I mean christ, were Shepard and Jack just dry humping?  
Give me a break. And the cheesy snuggling on the bed....ridiculous.

It is not needed, nor is it the most important. I was not saying that we absolutely get rid of it (even though I think it's smarter too) I am saying it's not needed nor important, what is important and "needed" is the emotion. ME1 was basically swapping models and using the same animations, nothing was different. I like the romances being diverse. I haven't done the Jack romance so I assume the dry humping is the renegade one. One cannot expect much far reaching emotion from a casual **** like that. Cheesy as snuggling is, it's preferable to nudity for the sake of nudity.

The thing is if you're gonna include a "sex scene" do it right like it in ME1, don;t give people this half-assed  crap from ME2

[Collider]

The ME1 cutscenes were much more halfassed. The "sex" was just replacing models and having them do the same animations. You only need to animate for ONE scene. With ME2, you need to animate for SIX scenes.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

@cata, I feel like we're going in circles, and I still disagree with you saying that he is gay in your playthrough, because as you said, you're imagining it. The writers know more than we do, I am just disagreeing with projection. Better just to drop the subject really.

As I said before, you're creating a false distinction between 'is' and 'imagining', which essentially boils down to semantics and actually makes very little difference, if any, to what is happening in a player's mind when they play the game. But yep, we are going around in circles. I believe we've had this debate before too, so I guess it's something we're always going to disagree on.

o_O Talking about Rana and reading novels about heroes falling for beautiful women is not an indication that he likes women? Or going "wow" in the strip clubs? Or talking about extranet fetish sites of Asari matriarchs (how did he know...?) Or telling Shepard that Liara is "easy on the eyes," and that he "saw her first"? I'm sure there are a few other examples.

Having liked women, or still liking women, and also liking men, are not mutually exclusive. Until the writers tell me Kaidan doesn't like men I can believe he does. And I will. So there. *stamps foot petulently*