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[catabuca]

TommyServo wrote...

catabuca wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

It depends on how you want to define it. Casey Hudson has taken the position that there are no same sex relationships portrayed in ME at all, because Liara isn't human.

Naw, he falls back on the whole 'asari aren't female' crap.

I'm sorry dude, but mono-gendered means 1 gender. And that gender is female. Read your own codex >.<

I must have been getting his obtuse arguments mixed up with someone else's.  Although it's not impossible that he's trotted out both excuses.

In any event, I think I misinterpreted STG.  I was thinking in terms of "Can aliens even be gay ?" and maybe opening up the whole "is it homosexual if it's interspecies?"

If it's just "can aliens even be gay" then what Ryzaki said.  Of course they can.

Edit:

catabuca wrote...

Only if they recognise the concept 'gay'.

Good point.

If you've heard one obtuse argument you've heard 'em all 

Yeah, it's probably 2 different questions isn't it. I think it's a pointless question though, because, as I am fond of saying 'gay is the same as straight' and if ya fancy someone, ya fancy them.

[catabuca]

STG wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I would say yes. Since other species In Mass Effect have both genders.

Yes they have both genders, I am just wondering something else. We humans can be attracted to members of same sex, but it doesn't seem too crazy for example that turians in their hystory never had a case of homosexualism. Maybe their genetic structure or stuff like that (weak on biology, sorry) simply makes becoming attracted to same sex impossible, regardless of race.

Can't see the point in this conjecture, to be honest.

Anyway, if it feels nice, probability is high that people/aliens/schmalians are going to do it, with whoever fits the bill. The only thing that gets in the way is social convention and stigma.

[Ryzaki]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


Wait...would you be considered bisexual if you liked to get it on with dogs of your own gender but not male humans?

No, but you'd be considered an animal abuser.

Poor FemShep.

Garrus is a human abuser.

[Mimaiselphenai]

catabuca wrote...

If you've heard one obtuse argument you've heard 'em all 

Yeah, it's probably 2 different questions isn't it. I think it's a pointless question though, because, as I am fond of saying 'gay is the same as straight' and if ya fancy someone, ya fancy them.

It's a good viewpoint, I think. Especially in a modern society where becoming a couple is hardly centered around procreation (for most). I imagine it'd be even more prevalent in the future...with aliens!

[catabuca]

The central difference between bestiality and alien-lovin' is sentience and/or the ability to consent. Same reason for paedophilia, same for rape.



Theoretically, sexual relations with a sentient alien capable of emotional maturity and the ability to make an informed choice as to whether they consent or not is exactly the same as with any (human) being capable of the same.

[Collider]

I can't believe interspecies relationships with sapient aliens is being likened to bestiality. Bestiality is wrong because, as catabuca said, there is no ability to make informed consent and it is essentially taking advantage. As to whether aliens can be "gay" yes they can. All that is required for that is attraction to the same gender.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

I can't believe interspecies relationships with sapient aliens is being likened to bestiality. Bestiality is wrong because, as catabuca said, there is no ability to make informed consent and it is essentially taking advantage. As to whether aliens can be "gay" yes they can. All that is required for that is attraction to the same gender.

I love it when we get along

Also, 'can aliens be gay': to our eyes, yes, because we make a distinction between gay and straight, but only in their society if they recognise the concept of 'gay'.

[STG]

I don't know how bestiality got into this but it definitely isn't what I had in mind.



As Collider said: "All that is required for that is attraction to the same gender." and so I ask, what if certain species are simply incapable of that? What if for example drell as a species can't feel sexual attraction to same sex? That's what I meant when I asked can aliens be gay.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Turian females probably look exactly like males anyway, so there's probably all sorts of accidental homosexual encounters. At this point in their culture, they're just like "ah, **** it!"

Because I say so.

[Collider]

Catabuca, I agree that it's great we get along. But I hope I didn't give you the impression that I was not trying to in the first place. Our discussions have been about the most trivial thing and I haven't been trying to mean any offense to you.



I think it does not matter if their society has a term of homosexual. Literally, by definition, homosexuality is the attraction to the same sex. If they are attracted to the same sex and no others, that's homosexuality. Those aliens don't have to have a distinct gay culture, but they can still be gay. And not have to go limp wrist and speak in lisps.

[Collider]

STG wrote...
As Collider said: "All that is required for that is attraction to the same gender." and so I ask, what if certain species are simply incapable of that? What if for example drell as a species can't feel sexual attraction to same sex? That's what I meant when I asked can aliens be gay.

Well you asked if aliens can be gay so we gave you an answer. If some aliens can't be gay, then they can't be gay, lol. That's really the only answer you need.

[Siansonea]

STG wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I would say yes. Since other species In Mass Effect have both genders.

Yes they have both genders, I am just wondering something else. We humans can be attracted to members of same sex, but it doesn't seem too crazy for example that turians in their hystory never had a case of homosexualism. Maybe their genetic structure or stuff like that (weak on biology, sorry) simply makes becoming attracted to same sex impossible, regardless of race.

Who knows? It hasn't been addressed by the developers. Technically asari that mate with other asari are homosexual, since there is no 'opposite' gender. Turians haven't really given us much on the subject, aside from Garrus' 'reach and flexibility' dialogue, I can't think of any examples where references to female turians have occurred at all. I'm sure there are other instances, but I can't think of them. I would say that the various species certainly could have homosexuality and
bisexuality, and indeed depending on the gender
structure of a given species there could be other permutations besides
hetero, ******, and bi. It's likely that other species would have completely different views on the topic than humans do.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Collider wrote...

Catabuca, I agree that it's great we get along. But I hope I didn't give you the impression that I was not trying to in the first place. Our discussions have been about the most trivial thing and I haven't been trying to mean any offense to you.

I think it does not matter if their society has a term of homosexual. Literally, by definition, homosexuality is the attraction to the same sex. If they are attracted to the same sex and no others, that's homosexuality. Those aliens don't have to have a distinct gay culture, but they can still be gay. And not have to go limp wrist and speak in lisps.

By definition, by human definition. By human perception. Alien minds (yeah yeah, we're talking about a video game and not REAL ALIENS, I know) may function differently. They don't buy our dictionaries. I don't think humans would have the right to impose our perceptions on another species entirely.

[Collider]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...
By definition, by human definition.

Lol, what do you expect me to use? Gay is a human word, and the question was whether aliens can be gay (a human word). The definition for gay is exclusive attraction to the same gender. And as aliens have genders, they could therefore be concievably attracted to the same gender and none others. There are a lot of things people associate with "gay" a lot of stereotypes, but quite literally, the dictionary definition is attraction to the same sex. I'm not expecting to see aliens have pride parades.

[Siansonea]

STG wrote...

I don't know how bestiality got into this but it definitely isn't what I had in mind.

As Collider said: "All that is required for that is attraction to the same gender." and so I ask, what if certain species are simply incapable of that? What if for example drell as a species can't feel sexual attraction to same sex? That's what I meant when I asked can aliens be gay.

Anything is possible, but it's important to note that homosexuality is not an exclusively human phenomenon here on Earth. It is well documented in the animal kingdom, so if other species' evolution is at all analogous to what has occurred here on Earth, it is likely that homosexuality is also present in these species.

[Siansonea]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Collider wrote...

Catabuca, I agree that it's great we get along. But I hope I didn't give you the impression that I was not trying to in the first place. Our discussions have been about the most trivial thing and I haven't been trying to mean any offense to you.

I think it does not matter if their society has a term of homosexual. Literally, by definition, homosexuality is the attraction to the same sex. If they are attracted to the same sex and no others, that's homosexuality. Those aliens don't have to have a distinct gay culture, but they can still be gay. And not have to go limp wrist and speak in lisps.

By definition, by human definition. By human perception. Alien minds (yeah yeah, we're talking about a video game and not REAL ALIENS, I know) may function differently. They don't buy our dictionaries. I don't think humans would have the right to impose our perceptions on another species entirely.

Indeed, this seems to be largely a conversation about nomenclature. It could be that for a given species, sexual contact among a single gender is commonplace and 'normal' in that society, whereas in another it could be biologically not present. I would argue that such a genetically homogeneous species would probably not have an evolutionary advantage, in that case. Variety is the spice of evolution.

[Collider]

I've already explained that, sian.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Collider wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...
By definition, by human definition.

Lol, what do you expect me to use? Gay is a human word, and the question was whether aliens can be gay (a human word). The definition for gay is exclusive attraction to the same gender. And as aliens have genders, they could therefore be concievably attracted to the same gender and none others. There are a lot of things people associate with "gay" a lot of stereotypes, but quite literally, the dictionary definition is attraction to the same sex. I'm not expecting to see aliens have pride parades.

Gay is a human word. That's my point. By human definition, yeah aliens can be gay. From our point of view they can be homosexual. Just like from our point of view, aliens can be ugly. And from theirs, we can be ugly. Within an alien culture though, they wouldn't necessarily follow the same thinking as us in terms of sexual attraction, or anything for that matter. So while WE may call two aliens of the same gender "gay," they may not.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

Catabuca, I agree that it's great we get along. But I hope I didn't give you the impression that I was not trying to in the first place. Our discussions have been about the most trivial thing and I haven't been trying to mean any offense to you.

I know. No offense taken whatsoever And likewise from me too.

I think it does not matter if their society has a term of homosexual. Literally, by definition, homosexuality is the attraction to the same sex. If they are attracted to the same sex and no others, that's homosexuality. Those aliens don't have to have a distinct gay culture, but they can still be gay. And not have to go limp wrist and speak in lisps.

That definition of homosexuality is ours though. An alien species might not have a word for it, not because there isn't a 'gay culture', but because sex is just sex, and they just don't distinguish between same-sex or different-sex relations.

In that case, of course we'd call male/male relations homosexual, or gay, but they wouldn't because it isn't even a concept to them.

Language isn't fixed, and neither are the definitions, nor the things language tries to describe.

Anyway, it is that time in the evening again when I bid you all good night. If I'm trying to avoid doing any work again tomorrow (which is likely) I shall see you all then <3

[Collider]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...

Collider wrote...

Mimaiselphenai wrote...
By definition, by human definition.

Lol, what do you expect me to use? Gay is a human word, and the question was whether aliens can be gay (a human word). The definition for gay is exclusive attraction to the same gender. And as aliens have genders, they could therefore be concievably attracted to the same gender and none others. There are a lot of things people associate with "gay" a lot of stereotypes, but quite literally, the dictionary definition is attraction to the same sex. I'm not expecting to see aliens have pride parades.

Gay is a human word. That's my point. By human definition, yeah aliens can be gay.

That's the word he used in the question. That's my point.

From our point of view they can be homosexual.

We're not talking subjectives. Literally, if you are attracted only to the same gender, you're homosexual. ****** meaning "same" or in other words "sexual" to the "same." I think you are trying to factor in human culture into this, when you don't need to. "Ugly" is a completely subjective word.

Just like from our point of view, aliens can be ugly. And from theirs, we can be ugly. Within an alien culture though, they wouldn't necessarily follow the same thinking as us in terms of sexual attraction, or anything for that matter. So while WE may call two aliens of the same gender "gay," they may not.

It does not matter how they perceive it, this is an objective word. We're not talking about ugly. They could think that being attracted to the same sex is commonplace. But those common people who are attracted to the same sex exclusively would still be gay.

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...
That definition of homosexuality is ours though. An alien species might not have a word for it, not because there isn't a 'gay culture', but because sex is just sex, and they just don't distinguish between same-sex or different-sex relations.

I am arguing that it does not matter. It seems to me that you are factoring in all of the things that humans needlessly associate with homosexuality. Let's look at the definition for gay:
Sexually attracted solely or primarily to other members of the same sex.

In that case, of course we'd call male/male relations homosexual, or gay, but they wouldn't because it isn't even a concept to them.

Doesn't matter. There could be a word for people who don't believe in purple elephants in an alien culture. Even though we humans don't have a name for that, we would still fit under that word because we don't believe in it. Like wise, we can say that someone is "human" without them believing they are "human." They can think they are a cat, but that doesn't stop them from actually being human.

[Mimaiselphenai]

Again, they would be gay to US. It's a concept within OUR society. Anything from our perspective, for all you or I know, is limited to human culture alone. So, hypothetically if there was an alien race with absolutely no concept of homosexuality, then they can't be "gay." Not as far as they're concerned, anyway. It's only from our human point of view that we would label them as gay. So the answer to the other poster's question could very well be yes and no depending on the species.

[STG]

Mimaiselphenai wrote...
So the answer to the other poster's question could very well be yes and no depending on the species.

Right, and on that note, we simply don't have enough information sadly.

Nice discussion though.

[Mimaiselphenai]

STG wrote...

Nice discussion though.

Isn't that what it's all about? =P

[Nordic Einar]

STG wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I would say yes. Since other species In Mass Effect have both genders.

Yes they have both genders, I am just wondering something else. We humans can be attracted to members of same sex, but it doesn't seem too crazy for example that turians in their hystory never had a case of homosexualism. Maybe their genetic structure or stuff like that (weak on biology, sorry) simply makes becoming attracted to same sex impossible, regardless of race.

Seeing as how homosexuality is seen in countless mamilian and non-mamilian species across the planet  I can't begin to imagine how extra-terrestial mamals couldn't be gay.

So, yes. Aliens can, and very likely would (following the laws of probability) be capable of homosexuality.