7455 réponses à ce sujet

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

(Ryzaki ,



...What is the No Bisexuals back in season? /images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png



They EXIST!



And Kaidan was going to be Bi anyways. /images/forum/emoticons/crying.png)





Well , to be honest , all I'm going to say is most see bi-sexual only affecting one group , while the other group is seen as a lost cause.

[Heavensrun]

Collider wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...
But Ray Muzyka's interview seriously cheesed me off.  They didn't limit male shep's romance options for some narrative statement about Shepard's character.  You can change his gender, his proclivity for violence, and, if you do change his gender, -her- sexual prefference, but -his- sexual prefference is off limits strictly because of some higher narrative goal?

I think people may be reading too much into this. It's not as simple as
a) Bioware hates or dislikes homosexuals or other homosexual things.
Bioware doesn't care about the GLBT audience
c) Bioware is intentionally insulting the GLBT audience
d) Bioware is making a political statement
e) Bioware owes players homosexual romances

We have plenty of examples that are contrary to these.

I never said any of those things.  I said his statement angered me, because it's dishonest.

Shepard is not a predefined character, and ME is demonstrably no more a third person narrative than Dragon Age.  It -is- a slightly different style, but that doesn't justify limiting sexual prefference options under the auspice of narrative structure.  If Shepard is predefined as stright, why is femshep predefined differently?  Why does she have options maleshep doesn't have?

This response to the issue is bull.  It's a dishonest, PR sort of answer, to try and placate people who disagree with the decision to leave same sex LI's out of the game.  I am not accusing Bioware of anything.  I am accusing Ray Musyka of making a very specifically disingenuous statement.

I just hope that the devs haven't gotten so "on the defensive" about this issue that they've knuckled down their position on it.  The IGN interview really makes me worry about Ray's attitude towards the topic.

You have to put it into context. If I "made" a game, and people started accusing me of being homophobic, I would get defensive, because I know I am NOT homophobic nor would I like my group or company portrayed that way.

I'm not suggesting that they're on the defensive because of claims of homophobia.  I am suggesting that Ray's comments on the topic of same sex relationships in Mass Effect are disingenuous, because they certainly appear to be.  I am not making any broader accusations beyond that, and I fully support the civil, productive tone that this thread was concieved to promote.

I just really wish that Muzyka would be straight with us.

...And that was not meant to be a pun.

[didymos1120]

Wittand25 wrote...
 I think the problem is that making every LI available for everyone is that it can create problems with their backstory. The thing that anoyed me about Sky in JE was how he turned bi for my character and mentioned that several times.
And ofcourse there is the thing with limited resources so having one of each gender beeing bisexual is sensibel  while having everyone so would turn into a waste of resources in my opinion.

And where did I say every character should be gay or bi, or that you should have the power to make them "turn gay/bi" depite previous history to the contrary? I thought it was fairly clear that I was talking on a meta-fictional level, the way I can decide whether or not, say, Tali takes a rocket to the faceplate on the Collector base, or Ash is a Xenophobic Wrex-Killer on Virmire.  Sure, you could have a male character who didn't think they were into dudes turn out to be into dudes, or at least your dude.  It does happen ya' know?  And, they'd probably mention it a few times to the dude they were snogging, don't you think? Or the female equivalent of that could work too.  I disagree that there's something inherently invalid about such a character (as you seem to be saying, correct me if I'm wrong).  I'd also be fine with someone who switched teams unexpectedly to them and wasn't particularly bothered by it.  It's just a different character type to employ.

But yes, it would be ridiculous if every character behaved that way, so it's a good thing I suggested no such scenario.  If you were making a very different sort of game, that kind of psychological absurdity could be knowingly employed to good effect, but it was not at all what I was trying to say, believe me.  As an analogy, think Schrödinger's Cat. Only here when you opened the box (i.e., initiate the relationship in-game), you wouldn't discover a living or dead cat, but a gay or straight NPC.  Until you do however, they're in a sort of "sexuality superposition", neither gay nor straight until observed.   No good reason I can see not to have characters who can be either/or but not both.  And just to be clear, I also have no problem with NPCs who just won't swing the other way, no matter how enticing the pitch. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 26 février 2010 - 09:22 .

[SkullandBonesmember]

Ryzaki wrote...

OMG personal preference! OMGNOWAI!

Did you not read the bolded. And ME2 isn't my idea of a great book either. Then again I'm more of a fantasy girl when it comes to my books.

Girl? Hmm, you remind me of Maria then.

There are many different genres of books, television, and movies, but story-driven video games are practically non existent. If there's a large fanbase/demand for dramas, why can't there be more games like Heavy Rain?

[didymos1120]

Heavensrun wrote...

Nobody ever said they were strippers.  They're frequently referred to as "dancers".  the world is full of clubs that have women in scant clothing dancing on platforms to titilate interested customers.  These women do not shed clothing, and thus, are not strippers, but simply dancers.

Sexy dancers.  (nods)

Women?  Pshaw.  They're clearly sexy nongendered persons who dance.  This I know, because BioWare said so once, or something. 

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

Mr.Ray Muzyka , in his opinion that's how he's views the decision not to include same-sex.For all we know maybe they said we've included same-sex in two games , it's become a wasted feature or some of the voice actors don't feel comfortable saying these lines.In the end they choose not to have it in the Mass Effect games.



I think Rey and Bioware should come out and say what there problem is.

[Wittand25]

didymos1120 wrote...
 I disagree that there's something inherently invalid about such a character (as you seem to be saying, correct me if I'm wrong).  I'd also be fine with someone who switched teams unexpectedly to them and wasn't particularly bothered by it.  It's just a different character type to employ.

 Until you do however, they're in a sort of "sexuality superposition", neither gay nor straight until observed.   No good reason I can see not to have characters who can be either/or but not both.  And just to be clear, I also have no problem with NPCs who just won't swing the other way, no matter how enticing the pitch. 

 I thinkl I explained in a later post that I think it is ok if a LI who has no sexual orientation in their backstory and only expresses his/her orientation in the game is romanceable by both genders and that I only dislike it if a npc with an established romantic past suddenly jumps borders because the pc is just so irresistible.

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

The Asari are woman alright , I can't prove it yet.Maybe in ME3 I can.To equal the game out their needs to be an all male species similar to the Asari.Then with this new species you get male dancers and problem solved.

[didymos1120]

Wittand25 wrote...
I thinkl I explained in a later post that I think it is ok if a LI who has no sexual orientation in their backstory and only expresses his/her orientation in the game is romanceable by both genders and that I only dislike it if a npc with an established romantic past suddenly jumps borders because the pc is just so irresistible.

OK, yeah, but I hadn't gotten that far yet.  I wanted to make clear however, that I wasn't saying anything about having all characters act like that, which is what you seemed to have taken from my post.  I still disagree that border-jumpers are inherently bad character types to use, but I also have no problem if you just don't like that sort of character.  It's often done quite badly, but I also get that it isn't all that plausible to some, especially if you haven't known any real people who've traveled that path.  To be more specific, I don't really understand why it's not plausible, but I accept the fact that it is to some.  I don't know if that's the case with you, or you have some other reason, maybe even "It just bugs me."  What is it exactly about it as a type that bothers you?

[BrianWilly]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

or some of the voice actors don't feel comfortable saying these lines.

This is demonstrably false; all of the same-sex dialogue had been recorded already, for the first and for the second game.

Refer to the youtube links at the bottom of the FAQ on the first page for more information.

[BrianWilly]

Heavensrun wrote...

I am accusing Ray Musyka of making a very specifically disingenuous statement.

And we all know what we do to people who make disingenuous assertions around these parts!

[Heavensrun]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

(Ryzaki ,Uh. Wasn't Thane married? And Jacob had a relationship with Miranda before they broke up? And...I think Garrus slept with Turian females before. Even Kaidan admits to having feelings for that girl at his camp.)


Do you realize what you just did ? You've single-handedly crossed off these guys for m/m relationships.

No, they simply pointed out that they have been with women, or at least have been interested in women before.

That doesn't mean they can't be bi.

Hell, that doesn't mean they can't be GAY.

Lots of gay men courted and bedded females before they came to the realization they were gay.  Some continued to do it -after- realizing because they felt it was expected of them.  Some decided they like both sides of the fence equally.  Some people, honestly, in real life, go gay for one specific exceptional person, and like the opposite sex in all other occurances.

These people exist.  I know several.

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

BrianWilly,



Ok , what about that similar race to the Asari that are all male ?

[didymos1120]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

The Asari are woman alright , I can't prove it yet.Maybe in ME3 I can.To equal the game out their needs to be an all male species similar to the Asari.Then with this new species you get male dancers and problem solved.

You know what the issue with that would be?  Where do the babies, literally and, um "geographically" shall we say, come from?  Beyond your odd sci-fi reproductive techno wizardry tale, pregnant males really do smack up against a pretty tall plausibility barrier (excepting like, seahorses and the like here on Earth).  It'd have to be done pretty cleverly to keep them seeming properly and firmly male, the way Asari are women.  Another thing is, you couldn't just deploy the same Asari mind-meld-esque mechanism for reproduction.  Boring and cheap, that would be.  It'd be really interesting to see, but these problems would likely kill (and maybe already have killed) such an idea almost immediately.  It's just too easy for them to screw it up, and horribly.

[piemanz]

Oh my god.This again!

[didymos1120]

BrianWilly wrote...
This is demonstrably false; all of the same-sex dialogue had been recorded already, for the first and for the second game.

Refer to the youtube links at the bottom of the FAQ on the first page for more information.

Good thing danman begged off.  He really doesn't like it when people say such things.

[Heavensrun]

didymos1120 wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

Nobody ever said they were strippers.  They're frequently referred to as "dancers".  the world is full of clubs that have women in scant clothing dancing on platforms to titilate interested customers.  These women do not shed clothing, and thus, are not strippers, but simply dancers.

Sexy dancers.  (nods)

Women?  Pshaw.  They're clearly sexy nongendered persons who dance.  This I know, because BioWare said so once, or something. 

I stand corrected.  ;p

[didymos1120]

piemanz wrote...

Oh my god.This again!

Yes. Read the FAQ, or seek other pastures. 

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

We'll I'm out of ideas now.

[Heavensrun]

BrianWilly wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

I am accusing Ray Musyka of making a very specifically disingenuous statement.

And we all know what we do to people who make disingenuous assertions around these parts!

(laugh)  God, I didn't know shepard actually said that.

Now I wish I'd said "disingenuous assertion" instead.

Not gonna edit, tho.  That's not how I roll.

Now!  Caught up on thread.  Going to bed.  But first, one final bit of incentive for the devs.

HEY, BIOWARE DEVS?  IF YOU ADD SAME-SEX ROMANCES TO ME3?  I WILL SEND YOU COOKIES.  THIS IS A BRIBE.  A BRIBE OF COOKIES.  AND POSSIBLY CANDY.

Just, y'know.  In case that's a motivating factor.

[didymos1120]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

We'll I'm out of ideas now.

No, you were supposed to rise to the challenge, and prove me wrong!

[BrianWilly]

Well, I personally have reservations about the plausibility and non-weirdness of an all-male race, but if that's what it takes to have inclusion, then at the end of the day I'd be for it.

Yes Bioware, I'm that desperate.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 26 février 2010 - 10:13 .

[Wittand25]

didymos1120 wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

The Asari are woman alright , I can't prove it yet.Maybe in ME3 I can.To equal the game out their needs to be an all male species similar to the Asari.Then with this new species you get male dancers and problem solved.

You know what the issue with that would be?  Where do the babies, literally and, um "geographically" shall we say, come from?  Beyond your odd sci-fi reproductive techno wizardry tale, pregnant males really do smack up against a pretty tall plausibility barrier (excepting like, seahorses and the like here on Earth).  It'd have to be done pretty cleverly to keep them seeming properly and firmly male, the way Asari are women.  Another thing is, you couldn't just deploy the same Asari mind-meld-esque mechanism for reproduction.  Boring and cheap, that would be.  It'd be really interesting to see, but these problems would likely kill (and maybe already have killed) such an idea almost immediately.  It's just too easy for them to screw it up, and horribly.

Per definition an monosexual race like the asari is biologically female, ofcourse that would not keep them from looking, sounding and behaving like human males and therefore be considerd male by humans.
Or take the dwarfs in Terry Pratchett´s Discworld. The species has two sexes, but their society is monogenderd male, meaning apart from the reproductive organs there is no difference between male and female in dress, look or behavior so that it is impossible to tell the sex of a dwarf without seeing them undressed.

Modifié par Wittand25, 26 février 2010 - 10:47 .

[didymos1120]

BrianWilly wrote...

Well, I personally have reservations about the plausibility and non-weirdness of an all-male race, but if that's what it takes to have inclusion, then at the end of the day I'd be for it.

Yes Bioware, I'm that desperate.

This is part of what cracks me up/infuriates me about the "Asari NOT women! Stop saying THAT!" thing:  their plausibility heavily relies on the fact that it's far more realistic for an all-female race to exist than an all-male one, given the realities of reproduction here on Earth, including things like actual all-female parthenogenetic species and medical solutions like in vitro fertilization amongst us humans.  Their whole design counts on our experience with the fact that women are the ones who have babies and that most of us will just automatically think "That makes sense."  Even the people arguing they're not female are buying them on that basis subconsciously. 

[BrianWilly]

Oh, an all-female race definitely already exists on Earth. We even know how it is that they reproduce without males, too; it's bizarrely similar to how the Asari do it, in fact.