7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Siansonea II wrote...
We're not talking about concept art here, we're talking fully produced content. Your analogy is not applicable.

Yes it is. It is still work that was made despite not being adopted into the final game. Like I said, characters go through many iterations, it is not original ---> final, it is phase 1 --> phase 2 --> phase 54 --> final. If you are a writer one should know how many times they've gone back and changed things, scrapped things. Bioware is not afraid of having same sex content. Dragon Age had it unabashedly, and Zevran openly hit on male wardens. Ultimately, the decision not to have same sex romances in ME2 may and seems likely to be that they did not feel it fit the characters, just as they felt that pink hair did not fit Subject Zero. We should be focusing on having same sex content from new characters in new bioware games.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Collider wrote...

Yes it is. It is still work that was made despite not being adopted into the final game. Like I said, characters go through many iterations, it is not original ---> final, it is phase 1 --> phase 2 --> phase 54 --> final. If you are a writer one should know how many times they've gone back and changed things, scrapped things. Bioware is not afraid of having same sex content. Dragon Age had it unabashedly, and Zevran openly hit on male wardens. Ultimately, the decision not to have same sex romances in ME2 may and seems likely to be that they did not feel it fit the characters, just as they felt that pink hair did not fit Subject Zero. We should be focusing on having same sex content from new characters in new bioware games.

This is a fair and sensible observation generally speaking, but I agree that it's not really applicable here.  I know that Bioware isn't afraid of this stuff, and I'm happy to acknowledge their more or less excellent track record. 

This game does have same sex content though.  Objectively speaking, why is a female homosexual relationship acceptable but a male homosexual relationship is not (and yes,  I know "lesbos r hawt", but we're ignoring that because it's ridiculous and exclusionary)?  Why would they allow so much customization to your character, yet bar one "version" of that character from engaging in same sex relationships and identifying as gay (or at least bisexual)?

The problem is that this is halfway there.  If they had prevented any same sex relationships in the game, or implemented the asari differently, then I'm sure people would still ask for it because it's Bioware, but I doubt it would be so widespread.  But it's been done halfway for no discernible reason, and we've received no justification from the developers that makes any sense.  They could easily fix it by adding to an existing character slightly.  It would restore "romancy" equilibrium, it wouldn't change their fundamental character or personality, and it would fix the game.

Also, one other thing to note - this isn't a book.  The story to "Mass Effect 2" isn't even complete yet, because there are more stories to be told in the DLC.  None of the characters are in their "final forms."  Stuff can be added or changed.  They aren't really "done" until the trilogy is finished and no longer supported by DLC.

Modifié par TommyServo, 14 avril 2010 - 06:32 .

[Collider]

Also, one other thing to note - this isn't a book. The story to "Mass Effect 2" isn't even complete yet, because there are more stories to be told in the DLC. None of the characters are in their "final forms." Stuff can be added or changed. They aren't really "done" until the trilogy is finished and no longer supported by DLC.

That's an assumption that they aren't in their final forms. The Kasumi DLC, for example, changed nothing for the other squad mates, they remain as they are. We have no idea if there is going to be any DLC changing the conversations with x squad mate on the Normandy. My main point is that Bioware is not afraid to have same sex romances, especially those of the lesbian variety. Would you not be satisfied if they went out and said that bisexuality did not fit these characters? They've already implied as much.

[Wittand25]

Collider wrote...

Also, one other thing to note - this isn't a book. The story to "Mass Effect 2" isn't even complete yet, because there are more stories to be told in the DLC. None of the characters are in their "final forms." Stuff can be added or changed. They aren't really "done" until the trilogy is finished and no longer supported by DLC.

That's an assumption that they aren't in their final forms. The Kasumi DLC, for example, changed nothing for the other squad mates, they remain as they are. We have no idea if there is going to be any DLC changing the conversations with x squad mate on the Normandy. My main point is that Bioware is not afraid to have same sex romances, especially those of the lesbian variety. Would you not be satisfied if they went out and said that bisexuality did not fit these characters? They've already implied as much.

Not really because then I would ask why it does not fit to a single one of the six, especially considering three of them are willing to have a relationship with someone who is not even of the same species and one of the remaining three mentions that she had  a relationship with a couple in the past.

[Siansonea]

Collider wrote...
Would you not be satisfied if they went out and said that bisexuality did not fit these characters? They've already implied as much.

This would only add fuel to the flames. Hopefully at the very least they've learned to zip their lips on this topic, and not make themselves look more foolish than they already do.

And we're back to the fact that Shepard is only defined from a character standpoint in a very few ways. We know that Shepard served in the Alliance Military, and is an N7 operative. We know that Shepard was instrumental in affecting the events of ME1 and ultimately triumphed, though the methods Shepard used to achieve that triumph are variable. Shepard can come from a number of backgrounds, any race, either gender, and respond to events in a Paragon, Neutral or Renegade fashion. Female Shepard can even romance female beings. So to say that of all these variables, the only one they felt compelled to curtail is sexuality is condemning the sexuality they omit. There can be no other interpretation to this. It is perplexing to me that they can casually but unequivocally state that a male homosexual cannot be the hero of their story, and not be called out for this hypocritical and backward attitude.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 14 avril 2010 - 06:45 .

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Collider wrote...

Also, one other thing to note - this isn't a book. The story to "Mass Effect 2" isn't even complete yet, because there are more stories to be told in the DLC. None of the characters are in their "final forms." Stuff can be added or changed. They aren't really "done" until the trilogy is finished and no longer supported by DLC.

That's an assumption that they aren't in their final forms. The Kasumi DLC, for example, changed nothing for the other squad mates, they remain as they are. We have no idea if there is going to be any DLC changing the conversations with x squad mate on the Normandy. My main point is that Bioware is not afraid to have same sex romances, especially those of the lesbian variety. Would you not be satisfied if they went out and said that bisexuality did not fit these characters? They've already implied as much.

But not an unwarranted one. While the Kasumi DLC didn't really change anything, there is nothing ruling out additions or changes to squadmates in future DLC or the third game. Mention of Tali and Garrus are somewhat old hat by now, but still relevant; content was added from ME1 to ME2 that changed the characters from companions to potential LIs.

And while Bioware as a company may have little issue with same-sex romance, how the subject was treated in DA versus ME is very different, indicating that there are issues somewhere. It might be the case that the devs didn't think bisexuality fit the characters, or that they thought it was only fine if both chicks are hot, or that many of the devs thought it fit just fine but were overridden by someone up the food chain. Might have been something else entirely. We can't really tell, though, without a much more concrete answer than Hudson or Muzyka have provided.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 14 avril 2010 - 06:53 .

[Collider]

Wittand25 wrote...
Not really because then I would ask why it does not fit to a single one of the six, especially considering three of them are willing to have a relationship with someone who is not even of the same species and one of the remaining three mentions that she had  a relationship with a couple in the past.

Let's say Thane was gay. You like Thane, even though he's a different species. Does that mean you should also like women, because if you can like a different species you must be attracted to women too right? No. We're not talking about real aliens here. Thane fits the typical masculine shape, Liara fits the typical feminine shape.

Jack was used by the couple. People are assuming she actually did something with the woman when she didn't have to.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Collider wrote...

Would you not be satisfied if they went
out and said that bisexuality did not fit these characters? They've
already implied as much.

I'd be satisfied if they made a definitive statement either way. I'm not saying that statement wouldn't lower my opinion of them depending on what they say, but it would be refreshing after all the tiptoeing they've done.

And yeah, they're not afraid of same sex romances, but here's what I think - considering the medium, including, say, only a lesbian romance in a game was edgy and progressive 5 years ago. The way they handle Zevran seems like it's progressive. Given what year it is, and the track record they've established in their past games, the way that it's handled in Mass Effect comes across as insulting. There are lesbian relationships, but they're not really acknowledged as such. There are no male/male relationships. Homosexuality generally isn't even acknowledged at all in the game's universe. It just seems like their attitude is "Let's use this to sell games, because people think it's hot." I just want to say "What's the big deal? You're Bioware!"

Modifié par TommyServo, 14 avril 2010 - 06:54 .

[Collider]

But not an unwarranted one.[/quote]
It IS unwarranted, hence "assumption." So far no DLC has changed any of the existing characters. It's an outright assumption to think they haven't finished.

While the Kasumi DLC didn't really change anything, there is nothing ruling out additions or changes to squadmates in future DLC or the third game. Mention of Tali and Garrus are somewhat old hat by now, but still relevant; content was added from ME1 to ME2 that changed the characters from companions to potential LIs.[/quote]
We're talking about DLC to ME2. Not ME2 to ME3. Changing orientations of these characters would still be bad in that event, anyway.

[quote]And while Bioware as a company may have little issue with same-sex romance, how the subject was treated in DA versus ME is very different, indicating that there are issues somewhere. [/quote]
That's an assumption, and a hasty one at that. Not including bisexual characters (which they did, actually in ME2) does not indicate that there is any issue.

[quote]It might be the case that the devs didn't think bisexuality fit the characters, or it might be the case that many of the devs thought it fit fine but were overridden by someone up the food chain.[/quote]
Like I said, they are not afraid and even have lesbian content in ME2 that could have been easily avoided. Samara could be uninterested in Shepard in general, Kelly could have been straight and no one would think it strange, Morinth could have seduced a man instead of Nef, and so on. They even had lesbian sex in ME1 and DA. And gay sex in DA. That seems to imply that they removed it for writing purposes.

[Collider]

TommyServo wrote...
Given what year it is, and the track record they've established in their past games, the way that it's handled in Mass Effect comes across as insulting.

Wow, give me a break. One of the only companies to provide same sex content, INCLUDING GAY ROMANCES IN DA, and you think it's INSULTING? Don't bite the hand that feeds. You are projecting malice on Bioware's part, when they quite clearly intend no insult nor offense.

There are lesbian relationships, but they're not really acknowledged as such.

Because Kelly cannot strip provactively for a female Shepard. Wait...

There are no male/male relationships. Homosexuality generally isn't even acknowledged at all in the game's universe. It just seems like their attitude is "Let's use this to sell games, because people think it's hot." I just want to say "What's the big deal? You're Bioware!"

It's so strange that Bioware can be so progressive but if they are still criticized when they are still miles ahead of so many other games.

[Collider]

Siansonea II wrote...
And we're back to the fact that Shepard is only defined from a character standpoint in a very few ways. We know that Shepard served in the Alliance Military, and is an N7 operative. We know that Shepard was instrumental in affecting the events of ME1 and ultimately triumphed, though the methods Shepard used to achieve that triumph are variable. Shepard can come from a number of backgrounds, any race, either gender, and respond to events in a Paragon, Neutral or Renegade fashion. Female Shepard can even romance female beings. So to say that of all these variables, the only one they felt compelled to curtail is sexuality is condemning the sexuality they omit. There can be no other interpretation to this. It is perplexing to me that they can casually but unequivocally state that a male homosexual cannot be the hero of their story, and not be called out for this hypocritical and backward attitude.

I'm not talking about Shepard. I was never one to argue that Shepard was defined as straight or whatever sexualiy. I'm referring to the squad mates themselves. They are defined. You may say "but you can make them paragon or renegade," in which case I would say that sexual orientation isn't a lightswitch, it isn't like changing your opinion. It's disgusting to suggest so.

[Siansonea]

Collider wrote...

Like I said, they are not afraid and even have lesbian content in ME2 that could have been easily avoided. Samara could be uninterested in Shepard in general, Kelly could have been straight and no one would think it strange, Morinth could have seduced a man instead of Nef, and so on. They even had lesbian sex in ME1 and DA. And gay sex in DA. That seems to imply that they removed it for writing purposes.

Well, kudos to Bioware for including pseudo-lesbian and quasi-lesbian content. Kelly's dancing and snuggles seem to be aimed more at male fantasy than anything else, so I'll applaud their progressiveness rather quietly. And let's be wary of spoilers in this forum.

"Writing purposes"? What kind of catch-all excuse is that? I'm really having a hard time with the concept that this extremely malleable character is somehow only rigid when it comes to male homosexuality. And yes, pun intended.

[Siansonea]

Collider wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
And we're back to the fact that Shepard is only defined from a character standpoint in a very few ways. We know that Shepard served in the Alliance Military, and is an N7 operative. We know that Shepard was instrumental in affecting the events of ME1 and ultimately triumphed, though the methods Shepard used to achieve that triumph are variable. Shepard can come from a number of backgrounds, any race, either gender, and respond to events in a Paragon, Neutral or Renegade fashion. Female Shepard can even romance female beings. So to say that of all these variables, the only one they felt compelled to curtail is sexuality is condemning the sexuality they omit. There can be no other interpretation to this. It is perplexing to me that they can casually but unequivocally state that a male homosexual cannot be the hero of their story, and not be called out for this hypocritical and backward attitude.

I'm not talking about Shepard. I was never one to argue that Shepard was defined as straight or whatever sexualiy. I'm referring to the squad mates themselves. They are defined. You may say "but you can make them paragon or renegade," in which case I would say that sexual orientation isn't a lightswitch, it isn't like changing your opinion. It's disgusting to suggest so.

It should be noted that Kaidan and Ashley were both originally conceived to be romanced by a Shepard of either gender, so 'changing' them back to bisexual at this point wouldn't be much of a stretch, would it? And Bioware is free to add new characters for same-sex romance options. They don't even have to be squad mates or serve on the Normandy. It should be an option for Shepard to have a romance with somebody who isn't on his/her ship.

[Collider]

Well, kudos to Bioware for including pseudo-lesbian and quasi-lesbian content.

Not pseduo-lesbian and quasi-lesbian content. If it's between females, it's lesbian. Don't tell me you think that Morinth is not female.

Kelly's dancing and snuggles seem to be aimed more at male fantasy than anything else, so I'll applaud their progressiveness rather quietly.

Let's not pretend that DA doesn't exist. Leliana's lesbian romance is full fledged and doesn't even get to sex unless her approval is at 100.

"Writing purposes"? What kind of catch-all excuse is that? I'm really having a hard time with the concept that this extremely malleable character is somehow only rigid when it comes to male homosexuality. And yes, pun intended.

Is there a problem if the writers write their characters as heterosexuals? Being a writer myself, we have certain pride and attachment in our characters and it would not feel "right" to us in many aspects if we even change something trivial like their hobbies. This is where I am getting at, and what I stated. It seems likely to me that the writers decided that these characters were simply not interested in the same sex.

[Siansonea]

Collider wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
And we're back to the fact that Shepard is only defined from a character standpoint in a very few ways. We know that Shepard served in the Alliance Military, and is an N7 operative. We know that Shepard was instrumental in affecting the events of ME1 and ultimately triumphed, though the methods Shepard used to achieve that triumph are variable. Shepard can come from a number of backgrounds, any race, either gender, and respond to events in a Paragon, Neutral or Renegade fashion. Female Shepard can even romance female beings. So to say that of all these variables, the only one they felt compelled to curtail is sexuality is condemning the sexuality they omit. There can be no other interpretation to this. It is perplexing to me that they can casually but unequivocally state that a male homosexual cannot be the hero of their story, and not be called out for this hypocritical and backward attitude.

I'm not talking about Shepard. I was never one to argue that Shepard was defined as straight or whatever sexualiy. I'm referring to the squad mates themselves. They are defined. You may say "but you can make them paragon or renegade," in which case I would say that sexual orientation isn't a lightswitch, it isn't like changing your opinion. It's disgusting to suggest so.

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the way that Tali and Garrus, who weren't romance interests in ME1, have suddenly become attracted to Shepard in ME2? These characters were 'changed', but was this change an organic progression of their characters, or a tacked-on fanservice option? I have my own opinion on the matter, but I'm curious to hear yours.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Collider wrote...

But not an unwarranted one.

It IS unwarranted, hence "assumption." So far no DLC has changed any of the existing characters. It's an outright assumption to think they haven't finished.

While the Kasumi DLC didn't really change anything, there is nothing ruling out additions or changes to squadmates in future DLC or the third game. Mention of Tali and Garrus are somewhat old hat by now, but still relevant; content was added from ME1 to ME2 that changed the characters from companions to potential LIs.

We're talking about DLC to ME2. Not ME2 to ME3. Changing orientations of these characters would still be bad in that event, anyway.

On the contrary, the original statement was

They aren't really "done" until the trilogy is finished and no longer supported by DLC.

My basis for the idea that the assumption is not unwarranted is the fact that changes to existing character have already been made from one game to another; there's nothing to indicate more changes could not be implemented.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 14 avril 2010 - 07:13 .

[Collider]

Siansonea II wrote...
It should be noted that Kaidan and Ashley were both originally conceived

Something needs to be said about the user of "original." Original implies two stages, original --> final. This is not how characters, especially those as important as squad mates, are made. They go through many iterations, the first concept may be wildly different from the final result. We don't know when or what stage they were considered as being bisexual, much less initially when. We only know that they were at one point considered.

And Bioware is free to add new characters for same-sex romance options.

This is what I want. New characters, don't add orientations to characters that already have romances. That's what we should be fighting for, not table scraps. Ask for a new male in ME3 who swings both ways or is gay.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Collider wrote...

It's so strange that Bioware can be so progressive but if they are still criticized when they are still miles ahead of so many other games.

The point is that they're not miles ahead anymore.   Having hot lesbians doing stripper dances and cuddling isn't really a "risk" these days.  Including that sort of thing while not explicitly recognizing it and completely ignoring male homosexuality isn't progressive, it's insulting.

Modifié par TommyServo, 14 avril 2010 - 07:15 .

[Collider]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
On the contrary, the original statement was that the characters could not be considered finished until the trilogy was finished and no longer supported by DLC.

I was responding to him in reference to the "story of ME2." He implied that because the trilogy has not been completed, the ME2 characters are not in their final form IN ME2. Which I disagree with, we cannot assume this. So far the track record has been that no existing characters have been altered.

[Siansonea]

Collider wrote...

Not pseduo-lesbian and quasi-lesbian content. If it's between females, it's lesbian. Don't tell me you think that Morinth is not female.

Let's not pretend that DA doesn't exist. Leliana's lesbian romance is full fledged and doesn't even get to sex unless her approval is at 100.

Is there a problem if the writers write their characters as heterosexuals? Being a writer myself, we have certain pride and attachment in our characters and it would not feel "right" to us in many aspects if we even change something trivial like their hobbies. This is where I am getting at, and what I stated. It seems likely to me that the writers decided that these characters were simply not interested in the same sex.

I do think asari are female. In fact, I know they are. But many try to use the 'mono-gendered-aliens-aren't-female' argument, and they use it to defend the game in some improbable ways. It can be viewed as something of a 'loophole' to many people, on both sides of the argument.

We aren't talking about Dragon Age. I don't play that game, so whatever progressive initiatives are present in that game are of no use to me when I am playing Mass Effect. I do not know to what extent the creative teams of the two games have worked together, and in any event, it only underlines Bioware's unreasonable and illogical stance.

Writers are certainly welcome to write heterosexual characters. But sexuality isn't a first-handshake issue with most characters. You discover things about the characters as you get to know them in the game. New facts about them come to light all the time. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that one or two existing squad members simply hasn't mentioned that they are also attracted to same-sex partners. Especially since by 2185 this sort of thing may have much less social stigma and therefore much less significance in general.

[Collider]

TommyServo wrote...
The point is that they're not miles ahead anymore.   Having hot lesbians doing stripper dances and cuddling isn't really a "risk" these days.

So Bioware should be doing what you think is risky? Wow.
They are still miles ahead of other games. If you want to compare Mass Effect to EVERYTHING, then OF COURSE they aren't miles ahead. There are tons of films depicting lesbians and gays. And in MOST parts of the world, female homosexuality is reviled in addition to male homosexuality. The western world is not THE world. It's still VERY progressive to include these things. I mean, look at the United States. Gay marriage has been voted illegal every time it's come up on the ballet. Every single time. If you think that lesbianism isn't risky, you are wrong.

Including that sort of thing while not explicitly recognizing it and completely ignoring male homosexuality invalidates isn't progressive, it's insulting.

COMPLETING IGNORING MALE HOMOSEXUALITY? Uh, what? Did Zevran just cease to exist for you? How about Sky? You are seeing insults somewhere where no insults were intended.

[Siansonea]

Collider wrote...

Something needs to be said about the user of "original." Original implies two stages, original --> final. This is not how characters, especially those as important as squad mates, are made. They go through many iterations, the first concept may be wildly different from the final result. We don't know when or what stage they were considered as being bisexual, much less initially when. We only know that they were at one point considered.

This is what I want. New characters, don't add orientations to characters that already have romances. That's what we should be fighting for, not table scraps. Ask for a new male in ME3 who swings both ways or is gay.

Well, the dialogue was recorded by the voice actors, so it can be assumed that the voice actors were aware that the characters were bisexual at the time they recorded the dialogue. I would say that is a pretty late stage in character development. Also, much of the animation was implemented in final form as well, and is unlockable by enterprising PC users. This tells me that the decision to omit this content occurred rather late in the process.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Collider wrote...

TommyServo wrote...
The point is that they're not miles ahead anymore.   Having hot lesbians doing stripper dances and cuddling isn't really a "risk" these days.

So Bioware should be doing what you think is risky? Wow.
They are still miles ahead of other games. If you want to compare Mass Effect to EVERYTHING, then OF COURSE they aren't miles ahead. There are tons of films depicting lesbians and gays. And in MOST parts of the world, female homosexuality is reviled in addition to male homosexuality. The western world is not THE world. It's still VERY progressive to include these things. I mean, look at the United States. Gay marriage has been voted illegal every time it's come up on the ballet. Every single time. If you think that lesbianism isn't risky, you are wrong.

Including that sort of thing while not explicitly recognizing it and completely ignoring male homosexuality invalidates isn't progressive, it's insulting.

COMPLETING IGNORING MALE HOMOSEXUALITY? Uh, what? Did Zevran just cease to exist for you? How about Sky? You are seeing insults somewhere where no insults were intended.

Dude, I acknowledged those.  We're talking about Mass Effect.  Given their track record in past games, the way it is treated in Mass Effect, particularly Mass Effect 2, is insulting.

[Siansonea]

Collider wrote...

COMPLETING IGNORING MALE HOMOSEXUALITY? Uh, what? Did Zevran just cease to exist for you? How about Sky? You are seeing insults somewhere where no insults were intended.

We are talking about same-sex romances in MASS EFFECT, not Dragon Age. If they are more progressive in Dragon Age, good for them. But that doesn't affect anything in the Mass Effect universe.

[Collider]

Siansonea II wrote...
I do think asari are female. In fact, I know they are. But many try to use the 'mono-gendered-aliens-aren't-female argument, and they use it to defend the game in some improbable ways. It can be viewed as something of a 'loophole' to many people, on both sides of the argument.

That doesn't matter. They are still lesbian relationships.

We aren't talking about Dragon Age. I don't play that game, so whatever progressive initiatives are present in that game are of no use to me when I am playing Mass Effect.

The problem is that people seem to be forgetting DA and act like Bioware has never had gay male content ever. DA is still made by Bioware just as ME is still made by Bioware. I think it's pretty disgusting that people are making Bioware out to be homophobes in light of that, when DA is staring at them in the face.

I do not know to what extent the creative teams of the two games have
worked together, and in any event, it only underlines Bioware's
unreasonable and illogical stance.

What stance are you referring to? If you only talking about the gay romances not being in ME1 or ME2, then unreasonable and illogical is hardly appropriate here. Logic has nothing to do with this, especially considering it is your OPINION that it is unreasonable.

Writers are certainly welcome to write heterosexual characters. But sexuality isn't a first-handshake issue with most characters. You discover things about the characters as you get to know them in the game. New facts about them come to light all the time. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that one or two existing squad members simply hasn't mentioned that they are also attracted to same-sex partners.

Male and female Shepard can act exactly the same. To change the character's practical orientations is undesirable. I never even said I liked or agreed with DLC in the first place. I very much disagree with DLC that effectively changes the character's sexualities. This isn't what we should be pushing for. We should be pushing for new characters, not existing characters suddenly going "lawl I like men now" in the same game because of DLC.

Especially since by 2185 this sort of thing may have much less social stigma and therefore much less significance in general.

Which is EXTREMELY important. Even with apparentely zero stigma and signficance to homosexuality and bisexuality, these characters are still not so and still have not said so they were.

Modifié par Collider, 14 avril 2010 - 07:24 .