7455 réponses à ce sujet

[SorenTrigg]

Collider, you just have to remember. No one at all in Mass Effect has a 'set orientation'. No one has explicitly stated that they prefer the company of one sex.

Guessing what someone's orientation is, even if you are basing it on past relationships they have had, is just that. Guessing.

[Collider]

TommyServo wrote...
Dude, I acknowledged those.  We're talking about Mass Effect.  Given their track record in past games, the way it is treated in Mass Effect, particularly Mass Effect 2, is insulting.

I've already explained this. You are being extremely unreasonable. You are criticizing a company that had the bravery for having gay male content in their games, which almost no other company does. Give me a break. Stop trying to act a victim. They are not trying to insult you nor should you find it insulting. Find it insulting if they had gay content but only portrayed it negatively.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Collider wrote...

It's so strange that Bioware can be so progressive but if they are still criticized when they are still miles ahead of so many other games.

The reward for doing good work is often more work. One of the reasons Bioware is being criticized is because they've been so progressive in their other titles. The lesbian romance in DA isn't particularly titillating, nor does it come across as a male-gaze fantasy. While Zevran is aggressively flirtatious with either sex of Warden, I don't think he's played particularly camp. The romances are executed variably, but equitably, and no fuss is made about any of them (except by Wynne, who seems to have issues with all of them).

Contrast that with ME, where same-sex content is dismissed by the creators as imaginary (see: Liara isn't really a woman), included as a fling that doesn't count as an LI, or ruled out altogether (m/m). The whole thing comes across as 'gay's okay if both chicks are hot' adolescent male fantasy. Add to that the inclusion of things like Miranda's sex scene, the priiize, and Jack's renegade tumble with MShep. Why shouldn't there be criticism of things many feel Bioware got wrong in ME, just because of things they got right in DA? The two don't cancel each other out - if we think they got things wrong in ME, then we'll still think they're wrong in ME!

[Collider]

SorenTrigg wrote...
Collider, you just have to remember. No one at all in Mass Effect has a 'set orientation'.

Assumption. The writers know more than you do about the characters. That probably includes their orientation.

Guessing what someone's orientation is, even if you are basing it on past relationships they have had, is just that. Guessing.

It's not guessing. I cannot say that Garrus IS gay when he is open to females, AND said he got it on with a FEMALE turian. Given that both male and female Shepards can act EXACTLY the same, yet these romances are not open to the same sex, seems to imply that they are heterosexual.

Again, we should not be fighting for DLC that magically makes the characters open to the same sex, as if orientation is a light switch. We should be fighting for new characters, not table scraps.

[SorenTrigg]

Collider wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...
Collider, you just have to remember. No one at all in Mass Effect has a 'set orientation'.

Assumption. The writers know more than you do about the characters. That probably includes their orientation.

I rest my case.
You are *also* assuming. For all we know, the writers think some of them are bi, but just could not get the option enabled due to higher ups.
After all, the writers know better than us.
Just...please stop going on about character assassination.

[Collider]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
The reward for doing good work is often more work. One of the reasons Bioware is being criticized is because they've been so progressive in their other titles.

This is so stupid. Think of all the companies who wouldn't even dare of doing it. But people are still acting as if Bioware hates gay people. Give me a ****ing break.

Contrast that with ME, where same-sex content is dismissed by the creators as imaginary (see: Liara isn't really a woman),

Liara isn't a woman.

The whole thing comes across as 'gay's okay if both chicks are hot' adolescent male fantasy. Add to that the inclusion of things like Miranda's sex scene, the priiize, and Jack's renegade tumble with MShep. Why shouldn't there be criticism of things many feel Bioware got wrong in ME, just because of things they got right in DA? The two don't cancel each other out - if we think they got things wrong in ME, then we'll still think they're wrong in ME!

No, this isn't my point. My point is that people are looking at ME and seeming to pretend that DA:O doesn't exist, and then criticize Bioware in general for it. If you are criticizing (unwarranted, I might add. Reminds me of the "if you give a man a fish" story) ME for not having same sex content (which it does), fine. If you are criticizing Bioware collectively, you are picking and choosing.

[Vemarkis]

Well, in my honest opinion I don't see why Bioware can't release content they already done on the gay relationships and then suddenly cut it out as DLC for ME1 & ME2. From a business perspective it would make sense, they spent money on the dialogue but never used it. They would only need to spend relatively little time to re-enable these scenes & dialogue, and throw out a another 5-10$ DLC for both games. Its pretty much win/win for those who want that content, and for Bioware.



I don't see the point in bringing gay relationship only characters when many of the existing ones already have that kind of content, it is just not used.

[Nordic Einar]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Collider wrote...

It's so strange that Bioware can be so progressive but if they are still criticized when they are still miles ahead of so many other games.

The reward for doing good work is often more work. One of the reasons Bioware is being criticized is because they've been so progressive in their other titles. The lesbian romance in DA isn't particularly titillating, nor does it come across as a male-gaze fantasy. While Zevran is aggressively flirtatious with either sex of Warden, I don't think he's played particularly camp. The romances are executed variably, but equitably, and no fuss is made about any of them (except by Wynne, who seems to have issues with all of them).

Contrast that with ME, where same-sex content is dismissed by the creators as imaginary (see: Liara isn't really a woman), included as a fling that doesn't count as an LI, or ruled out altogether (m/m). The whole thing comes across as 'gay's okay if both chicks are hot' adolescent male fantasy. Add to that the inclusion of things like Miranda's sex scene, the priiize, and Jack's renegade tumble with MShep. Why shouldn't there be criticism of things many feel Bioware got wrong in ME, just because of things they got right in DA? The two don't cancel each other out - if we think they got things wrong in ME, then we'll still think they're wrong in ME!

Very much this. The majority of us are not arguing the Bioware is full of homophobes who hate us queers and to argue against individuals who haven't suggested that as if they had is ridiculous. Even if some people did, the people Collider is speaking to NOW have *not*.

Secondly, we have every right to be disappointed in Bioware for their abysmal handeling of this situation - deal with it. We buy all their games and support their product BECAUSE they have such an excellent track record, and it saddens us to see them capitulate in an effort to avoid controversy. You're tired of people pretending DA doesn't exist? I'm tired of people pretending that because Bioware's been an ally once that it excuses their handling of ME now - it absolutely does not. We expect better of them because they're better than this.

[Collider]

SorenTrigg wrote...
I rest my case.

You need to present your case better, because at current you have a very bad argument.

You are *also* assuming.

What I am assuming? It's not rocket science to know that the writers are aware of more than we are.

For all we know, the writers think some of them are bi, but just could not get the option enabled due to higher ups.

I never said this was impossible. Did you read my post?

Just...please stop going on about character assassination.

I never even said anything about character assassination in this conversation.

[Collider]

Vemarkis wrote...
Well, in my honest opinion I don't see why Bioware can't release content they already done on the gay relationships and then suddenly cut it out as DLC for ME1 & ME2. From a business perspective it would make sense, they spent money on the dialogue but never used it.

Huge assumption. It costs money to host DLC on servers for download. And for what reward? Most players aren't interested in these things. Plus you may essentially be overriding the will of the writers.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Collider wrote...

TommyServo wrote...
Dude, I acknowledged those.  We're talking about Mass Effect.  Given their track record in past games, the way it is treated in Mass Effect, particularly Mass Effect 2, is insulting.

I've already explained this. You are being extremely unreasonable. You are criticizing a company that had the bravery for having gay male content in their games, which almost no other company does. Give me a break. Stop trying to act a victim. They are not trying to insult you nor should you find it insulting. Find it insulting if they had gay content but only portrayed it negatively.

Here's the thing - gay content is there, and it is portrayed negatively.  It's negatively portrayed by virtue of the fact that only f/f relationships exist, and they only seem to be there to tittilate.  Hearing that and seeing it in the game caused the same reaction in me that the idiots who post "no gay Shepard, lesbians are ok because they're hot" cause.  There is no evidence that male homosexuality even exists.  It's dealt with in an  immature and objectifying fashion, and yeah, it's insulting, to both gay women and men.

Also, just for the record - no one has expressed the notion that Bioware is homophobic.  We are complaining about this because we KNOW Bioware is better than this.

Modifié par TommyServo, 14 avril 2010 - 09:57 .

[Collider]

Nordic Einar wrote...
Very much this. The majority of us are not arguing the Bioware is full of homophobes who hate us queers and to argue against individuals who haven't suggested that as if they had is ridiculous. Even if some people did, the people Collider is speaking to NOW have *not*.

I have seen it. I've seen people claim that Bioware is being discriminatory, segregative, homphobic, and insulting. I very much disagree.

Secondly, we have every right to be disappointed in Bioware for their abysmal handeling of this situation - deal with it.

:lol:Abysmal. Having LGBT to begin with equals Bioware being abysmal? wat
You do have the right, I'm not saying you don't nor am I saying you shouldn't. I am disagreeing with your opinions.

We buy all their games and support their product BECAUSE they have such an excellent track record, and it saddens us to see them capitulate in an effort to avoid controversy. You're tired of people pretending DA doesn't exist? I'm tired of people pretending that because Bioware's been an ally once that it excuses their handling of ME now - it absolutely does not. We expect better of them because they're better than this.

Biting the hand that feeds again.

[Nordic Einar]

Collider wrote...

Vemarkis wrote...
Well, in my honest opinion I don't see why Bioware can't release content they already done on the gay relationships and then suddenly cut it out as DLC for ME1 & ME2. From a business perspective it would make sense, they spent money on the dialogue but never used it.

Huge assumption. It costs money to host DLC on servers for download. And for what reward? Most players aren't interested in these things. Plus you may essentially be overriding the will of the writers.

Just like those who don't want S/S may essentially be overriding the will of the writers. Since the Will Of The Writers ™ is an argument that none of us can know and is basically a gigantic "What If" argument (IE - A weak one) I propose that ALL sides of this argument STOP discussing The Will Of The Writers (Tm!) as a way of supporting their viewpoints.

It's pointless, it leads to digressions, and it has no bearing whatsoever on the information at hand. We cannot know the intent of other people, and can only discuss the implications and affects of their actions. Until they shine down from the heavens to let us know Their Will, lets stop talking about it, kay?

[SorenTrigg]

Collider, you seem to be ignoring things.

I said no one has come out and said they only prefer one sex. The writers have never said they prefer only one sex. Thus, no one is explicitly straight. Until a character comes out and says "Sorry Shepard, I am only interested in X", they are fair game for being a bisexual character. Therefore, no characters can be ruined if someone has bisexual interactions opened up. And I brought up the character assassination thing since you seem to be adamant against characters being 'changed' to become bisexual, as it would ruin the core of their being.

[Collider]

TommyServo wrote...
Here's the thing - gay content is there, and it is portrayed somewhat negatively.

That's an opinion. There's not negative about Samara. There's nothing negative about Liara. Nothing negative about Kelly (unless you're off the ridiculous opinion that casual sex is wrong).

It's negatively portrayed by virtue of the fact that only f/f relationships exist, and they only seem to be there to tittilate.

Go post that in the Liara thread and tell me what kind of reception you get. Tell them that the Liara romances and the Samara romances are only sex and arousal.

There is no evidence that male homosexuality even exists.

False. The ME universe has Hendel

It's immature and objectifying,

I personally think you're being immature for reasons I've already explained. Bioware has already been mature in the fact that they've had gay romances in the first place. That's a rather brave thing to do. Again, tell the Liara threads that Liara objectifies women. Hell, tell that to the "Fight for the Love" group and see if they agree.

[Nordic Einar]

Collider wrote...

Nordic Einar wrote...
Very much this. The majority of us are not arguing the Bioware is full of homophobes who hate us queers and to argue against individuals who haven't suggested that as if they had is ridiculous. Even if some people did, the people Collider is speaking to NOW have *not*.

I have seen it. I've seen people claim that Bioware is being discriminatory, segregative, homphobic, and insulting. I very much disagree.

Secondly, we have every right to be disappointed in Bioware for their abysmal handeling of this situation - deal with it.

:lol:Abysmal. Having LGBT to begin with equals Bioware being abysmal? wat
You do have the right, I'm not saying you don't nor am I saying you shouldn't. I am disagreeing with your opinions.

We buy all their games and support their product BECAUSE they have such an excellent track record, and it saddens us to see them capitulate in an effort to avoid controversy. You're tired of people pretending DA doesn't exist? I'm tired of people pretending that because Bioware's been an ally once that it excuses their handling of ME now - it absolutely does not. We expect better of them because they're better than this.

Biting the hand that feeds again.

You've seen people claim Bioware is homophobic? Fantastic. I've seen
it too, and I also disagree with it. I'm fairly certain the person
you quoted who LAUDED Bioware's past
progressiveness disagrees with it to, yet you bring up "people claiming
Bioware is homophobic" as a way to refute the arguments this individual
brought forward - arguments that are not supported by the premise you
appear to be attacking. This is a red herring which you've used repeatedly in this thread. Bioware isn't being homophobic - they're capitulating to homophobia. Now that I've stated clearly that I agree with you on that stance, I expect you to never again bring it up in a discussion with me to attempt to refute or side step my points, kay? I'd suggest you extend that courtesy to everyone else who's lauded Bioware in the past and are also NOT claiming Bioware is homophobic.



Yes, abysmal. I'm not just discussing the lack of S/S content, but the constant (and often contradictory)  PR-spin since release to explain away the lack of content. In fact, as has been stated by many here, many of us would be much more content with the lack of S/S content if a representative of Bioware had just straight up said "We don't want S/S Romances in Mass Effect for the following reasons:". We would've been disappointed, and likely some of us would encourage Bioware to change that stance, but we would be much less angry about it. 

Secondly - I'm a consumer. I'm pretty sure my purchases feed Bioware, not the other way around. I'm just as fine holding onto my 50 dollars and giving it to another company who decides to be LGBT-Inclusive, should Bioware choose not to be in the future. And capitalism pretty much guarantees another company will do so eventually - the LGBT crowd is a profitable one. Your metaphor is overused and inappropriate - it's also kind of dismissive.

[Collider]

SorenTrigg wrote...
Collider, you seem to be ignoring things.

You're not making a good case for that.

I said no one has come out and said they only prefer one sex.

I never said that any character did.

The writers have never said they prefer only one sex.

That isn't my point. My point is that they may already know that they only prefer one sex.

Therefore, no characters can be ruined if someone has bisexual interactions opened up.

I disagree, on the virtue that the romances already exist yet cater only to one gender. But beyond that, the writers may have already defined these characters as interested only in the opposite gender.

And I brought up the character assassination thing since you seem to be adamant against characters being 'changed' to become bisexual, as it would ruin the core of their being.

It's not ONLY changing them to be bisexual. If they were for same sex only and we were talking about changing them to be opposite sex only or both sexes, I would still be seeing the same thing = don't do it. This is because I care about character integrity and having characters magically being interested in the same sex in conversations they once didn't does not fit that.

[Collider]

Nordic Einar wrote...
Just like those who don't want S/S may essentially be overriding the will of the writers.

I never said this was impossible. All I've been saying that it is also possible that the writers did not write or want them to be open to the same sex.

Since the Will Of The Writers ™ is an argument that none of us can know and is basically a gigantic "What If" argument (IE - A weak one)

It is NOT a weak argument. Considering I NEVER even said that I know or anyone else aside from Bioware knows whether the writers did not want it. All I was doing was posing the possibilities.

I propose that ALL sides of this argument STOP discussing The Will Of The Writers (Tm!) as a way of supporting their viewpoints.
It's pointless, it leads to digressions, and it has no bearing
whatsoever on the information at hand. We cannot know the intent of
other people, and can only discuss the implications and affects of
their actions. Until they shine down from the heavens to let us know
Their Will, lets stop talking about it, kay?

Or I can continue exercising my freedom of speech, kay?

Modifié par Collider, 14 avril 2010 - 07:51 .

[Siansonea]

Collider wrote...

Biting the hand that feeds again.

Perhaps you are right. We should just be grateful that Bioware allows us to give them our money. Thank you, Bioware, for taking my money and giving me a set of disks. Content of disks not important.

Really? Biting the hand that feeds? This is your argument now? We shouldn't tell Bioware that they're being unfair because it isn't nice? My, how the conversation has deteriorated.

[Collider]

Siansonea II wrote...
Perhaps you are right. We should just be grateful that Bioware allows us to give them our money. Thank you, Bioware, for taking my money and giving me a set of disks. Content of disks not important.

That's not what I am referring to. I am saying that Bioware has had same sex content in the first place, yet people are criticizing them for being "insulting" or "homphobic." It had nothing to do with money.

Really? Biting the hand that feeds? This is your argument now? We shouldn't tell Bioware that they're being unfair because it isn't nice? My, how the conversation has deteriorated.

You are misinterpreting me.

[Nordic Einar]

Collider wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Perhaps you are right. We should just be grateful that Bioware allows us to give them our money. Thank you, Bioware, for taking my money and giving me a set of disks. Content of disks not important.

That's not what I am referring to. I am saying that Bioware has had same sex content in the first place, yet people are criticizing them for being "insulting" or "homphobic." It had nothing to do with money.

Really? Biting the hand that feeds? This is your argument now? We shouldn't tell Bioware that they're being unfair because it isn't nice? My, how the conversation has deteriorated.

You are misinterpreting me.

OH LORD THE IRONY. 

[Collider]

This happens often in the thread, no surprise.

[Nordic Einar]

I don't know, I find it surprising that it continues to happen even after people *make it explicitly clear* where they stand on certain issues. Then again, some people just enjoy being obtuse :roll:

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Collider wrote...

No, this isn't my point. My point is that people are looking at ME and seeming to pretend that DA:O doesn't exist, and then criticize Bioware in general for it. If you are criticizing (unwarranted, I might add. Reminds me of the "if you give a man a fish" story) ME for not having same sex content (which it does), fine. If you are criticizing Bioware collectively, you are picking and choosing.

Put up or shut up time. What exactly do you mean about criticizing Bioware collectively, and where's an example post? Because all I've seen for more than 200 pages is criticism of how s/s content is handled in ME, sometimes with comparison to their other past or current titles, and of how Bioware has responded to questions about s/s romance. Comparison with other titles, I might add, is something for which there should be no expectation - not everyone who has opinions on s/s in ME(1 or 2) has played or is even interested in Bioware's other titles. Again, criticism of ME - and Bioware's development and handling of ME content - stands independent of anything Bioware's done with their other titles.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 14 avril 2010 - 08:02 .