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[The_KFD_Case]

The Uncanny wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Iehoa0083 wrote...

Well, if we look at this from a business point of view, allowing homosexual option for all char is probably not a good idea unless they know for sure that the number of people who want it vastly out number the number of people who doesn't want it.

And an incredibly good idea if those who either want it or don't care either way vastly outnumber those who don't.

Yes, but to my knowledge there does not appear to have been any empirically sound survey carried out in a large, generally representative pool of potential customers. Bear in mind that this forum probably does not fit the bill as many customers do not venture to online forums, and that those of us whom are present are a minority whose points of view may, or may not, accurately reflect the much larger market out there.

I never suggested there was any empirical evidence. Which means that neither argument can be made definitively. I was merely pointing out that the reverse was true.

Indeed, and I was merely pointing out that there does not appear to be any publicly available scientific data that concludes which decision would be the one that best suits it being "an incredibly good idea" to commit to.

Also, as I added to a previous post, there are troubling implications of towing the line that a majority is the one that should have the right of way. That sort of mentality is precisely what has helped lead to a stigmatization of non-heterosexuals in many societies today, as well as in the past.

[The Uncanny]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote..

Well, off the top of my head I can cite both Tali'Zorah and Garrus as apparently not being bisexual nor homosexual.

Apparently. So... not established then.

What would satisfactorily constitute "established" to you?

I don't know. I'm not the one arguing that characters in ME1 & 2 have definitively established sexual orientations. You tell me.

[SorenTrigg]

None of the characters have specifically defined sexual orientations within the game. Sure, some of them may have past relationships, but hey, who doesn't?

Having a past relationship of one sex does not exclude you from ever being involved with the other sex. In addition, *no one* (save for Shepard in one dialogue, if you choose it), has ever stated "I am only interested in X."

[The_KFD_Case]

The Uncanny wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote..

Well, off the top of my head I can cite both Tali'Zorah and Garrus as apparently not being bisexual nor homosexual.

Apparently. So... not established then.

What would satisfactorily constitute "established" to you?

I don't know. I'm not the one arguing that characters in ME1 & 2 have definitively established sexual orientations. You tell me.

With all due respect, if you are not clear with yourself over what constitutes "established" in the context of which love interests in the ME universe are, or aren't, of a certain sexual orientation, then there appears little point for me to flesh out my earlier commentary on the matter. Also, since you choose to raise questions about whether any love interest in ME was established as being of one persuasion or another you did in fact interject yourself in to the debate - intentionally or otherwise. If you wish not to participate further on the matter that is entirely your prerogative.

[The Uncanny]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

Indeed, and I was merely pointing out that there does not appear to be any publicly available scientific data that concludes which decision would be the one that best suits it being "an incredibly good idea" to commit to.

Also, as I added to a previous post, there are troubling implications of towing the line that a majority is the one that should have the right of way. That sort of mentality is precisely what has helped lead to a stigmatization of non-heterosexuals in many societies today, as well as in the past.

You've missed the point. Giving the majority of your audience the content they want is good business whichever proved to be true. Again, I was merely pointing out that the reverse was true.

I'm not talking about society. That is off topic. This thread is about Mass Effect. It serves BW's interests to cater to the wishes of the largest possible share of their audience - as best they see fit.

[Iehoa0083]

The Uncanny wrote...

Iehoa0083 wrote...
However, I just think that it is wrong to change the whole dynamic of some existing, even quite well established chars from ME1and 2 just for the sake of having that option open.

Established? Exactly how are the sexual orientations of most of the squad members in these two games definitively established? Explain please.

Well, sexual orientation is one part of a whole
char. What I'm trying to say and probably fail to express (it's probably my
fault) is that when we are looking at the question of rather or not we should
enable the homosexual option for a certain char, we should look at the char as
a whole through out the two games. Also, the back ground of char and the
designer's vision for the char would probably matter in making this decision. I
mean would it make sense for someone like Garrus who have only been with female
turians and shows no sign of homosexuality interest suddenly be open to same
sex relationship with Shepard? Should the quarian people be very open to same
sex relationship or not due to their need for survival? If so, what would Tali,
who grew up in that culture thinks about same sex relationship? All these could
be a problem or consideration when it comes to enabling homosexual option for these chars. Of
course, there are some char that could go the other way easily. For example, I
was actually quite surprised that Jack was not interested in a same sex
relationship (a little disappointed even tbh) because for that char, considering her back ground and past experiences would probably be more open about this (at least in my mind). 

[The_KFD_Case]

SorenTrigg wrote...

None of the characters have specifically defined sexual orientations within the game. Sure, some of them may have past relationships, but hey, who doesn't?
Having a past relationship of one sex does not exclude you from ever being involved with the other sex. In addition, *no one* (save for Shepard in one dialogue, if you choose it), has ever stated "I am only interested in X."

Conversely this does not prove that any of the characters in question are inclined to be of another sexual orientation. The only entity that appears to have the legitimate authority to confirm such a matter would be BioWare and/or the characters' original creators. Given BioWare's past behaviour and responses it seems exceedingly unlikely that they are going to come out with a straight answer (no pun intended) on the matter. It is far more convenient for them to leave it open to individual interpretation....Much like the Tali'Zorah romantic scene. To some it appears clear that Tali'Zorah and Shepard had sex. To others it doesn't.

[The_KFD_Case]

The Uncanny wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...

Indeed, and I was merely pointing out that there does not appear to be any publicly available scientific data that concludes which decision would be the one that best suits it being "an incredibly good idea" to commit to.

Also, as I added to a previous post, there are troubling implications of towing the line that a majority is the one that should have the right of way. That sort of mentality is precisely what has helped lead to a stigmatization of non-heterosexuals in many societies today, as well as in the past.

You've missed the point. Giving the majority of your audience the content they want is good business whichever proved to be true. Again, I was merely pointing out that the reverse was true.

I'm not talking about society. That is off topic. This thread is about Mass Effect. It serves BW's interests to cater to the wishes of the largest possible share of their audience - as best they see fit.

You are free to think so, yet I disagree and reject your claim that I have missed the point. Indeed, your counter-counter response to my counter-response reaffirms my point.

[SorenTrigg]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

None of the characters have specifically defined sexual orientations within the game. Sure, some of them may have past relationships, but hey, who doesn't?
Having a past relationship of one sex does not exclude you from ever being involved with the other sex. In addition, *no one* (save for Shepard in one dialogue, if you choose it), has ever stated "I am only interested in X."

Conversely this does not prove that any of the characters in question are inclined to be of another sexual orientation. The only entity that appears to have the legitimate authority to confirm such a matter would be BioWare and/or the characters' original creators.

Exactly what I am saying. It shows that *No one has a defined orientation* so there is no point in anyone arguing about the characters being defined in that aspect. I am not saying "They never said they were an orientation, so that must mean they are bi!", I am just saying that them having not stated their orientations ever leaves that open.

[The_KFD_Case]

Iehoa0083 wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Iehoa0083 wrote...
However, I just think that it is wrong to change the whole dynamic of some existing, even quite well established chars from ME1and 2 just for the sake of having that option open.

Established? Exactly how are the sexual orientations of most of the squad members in these two games definitively established? Explain please.

Well, sexual orientation is one part of a whole
char. What I'm trying to say and probably fail to express (it's probably my
fault) is that when we are looking at the question of rather or not we should
enable the homosexual option for a certain char, we should look at the char as
a whole through out the two games. Also, the back ground of char and the
designer's vision for the char would probably matter in making this decision. I
mean would it make sense for someone like Garrus who have only been with female
turians and shows no sign of homosexuality interest suddenly be open to same
sex relationship with Shepard? Should the quarian people be very open to same
sex relationship or not due to their need for survival? If so, what would Tali,
who grew up in that culture thinks about same sex relationship? All these could
be a problem or consideration when it comes to enabling homosexual option for these chars. Of
course, there are some char that could go the other way easily. For example, I
was actually quite surprised that Jack was not interested in a same sex
relationship (a little disappointed even tbh) because for that char, considering her back ground and past experiences would probably be more open about this (at least in my mind). 

Agreed. That said, the quarian case isn't necessarily that cut and dried. Given their limited resources and space it could be argued that it might not be so taboo for them to engage in non-heterosexual relationships. Also, historically speaking it has apparently been acknowledged that Ancient Greek society was openly homosexual, yet this did not remove the need for reproduction which still took place. That many, including myself, associate love, sex and reproduction with one another does not make them one and the same thing.

[The_KFD_Case]

SorenTrigg wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

None of the characters have specifically defined sexual orientations within the game. Sure, some of them may have past relationships, but hey, who doesn't?
Having a past relationship of one sex does not exclude you from ever being involved with the other sex. In addition, *no one* (save for Shepard in one dialogue, if you choose it), has ever stated "I am only interested in X."

Conversely this does not prove that any of the characters in question are inclined to be of another sexual orientation. The only entity that appears to have the legitimate authority to confirm such a matter would be BioWare and/or the characters' original creators.

Exactly what I am saying. It shows that *No one has a defined orientation* so there is no point in anyone arguing about the characters being defined in that aspect. I am not saying "They never said they were an orientation, so that must mean they are bi!", I am just saying that them having not stated their orientations ever leaves that open.

Except that there is at the very least suggestive/circumstantial evidence that some characters have a penchance for at least one of the genders. In the absence of concrete evidence, circumstantial evidence is preferable to none at all.

[The Uncanny]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

With all due respect, if you are not clear with yourself over what constitutes "established" in the context of which love interests in the ME universe are, or aren't, of a certain sexual orientation, then there appears little point for me to flesh out my earlier commentary on the matter. Also, since you choose to raise questions about whether any love interest in ME was established as being of one persuasion or another you did in fact interject yourself in to the debate - intentionally or otherwise. If you wish not to participate further on the matter that is entirely your prerogative.

I have opinions on the matter. They aren't immediately valid.

I raised no actual question. I simply asked someone to clarify their position. You interjected yourself on their behalf.

[SorenTrigg]

What suggestive or circumstantial evidence that is not just them having a past relationship?

Because basing what you believe a sexual orientation to be entirely on past relationships, again, ignores the possibility of bisexuality.

[The Uncanny]

The_KFD_Case wrote...
Indeed, your counter-counter response to my counter-response reaffirms my point.

How so?

[Iehoa0083]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

Iehoa0083 wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Iehoa0083 wrote...
However, I just think that it is wrong to change the whole dynamic of some existing, even quite well established chars from ME1and 2 just for the sake of having that option open.

Established? Exactly how are the sexual orientations of most of the squad members in these two games definitively established? Explain please.

Well, sexual orientation is one part of a whole
char. What I'm trying to say and probably fail to express (it's probably my
fault) is that when we are looking at the question of rather or not we should
enable the homosexual option for a certain char, we should look at the char as
a whole through out the two games. Also, the back ground of char and the
designer's vision for the char would probably matter in making this decision. I
mean would it make sense for someone like Garrus who have only been with female
turians and shows no sign of homosexuality interest suddenly be open to same
sex relationship with Shepard? Should the quarian people be very open to same
sex relationship or not due to their need for survival? If so, what would Tali,
who grew up in that culture thinks about same sex relationship? All these could
be a problem or consideration when it comes to enabling homosexual option for these chars. Of
course, there are some char that could go the other way easily. For example, I
was actually quite surprised that Jack was not interested in a same sex
relationship (a little disappointed even tbh) because for that char, considering her back ground and past experiences would probably be more open about this (at least in my mind). 

Agreed. That said, the quarian case isn't necessarily that cut and dried. Given their limited resources and space it could be argued that it might not be so taboo for them to engage in non-heterosexual relationships. Also, historically speaking it has apparently been acknowledged that Ancient Greek society was openly homosexual, yet this did not remove the need for reproduction which still took place. That many, including myself, associate love, sex and reproduction with one another does not make them one and the same thing.

True, but to a race that were always struggling to survive and obviously short on number, reproduction is a big thing. Would they tolerate sexual behavior or even such an sexual orientation which serve no reproductive purposes, I don't really think so. 

Modifié par Iehoa0083, 27 avril 2010 - 04:23 .

[Ryzaki]

SorenTrigg wrote...

What suggestive or circumstantial evidence that is not just them having a past relationship?
Because basing what you believe a sexual orientation to be entirely on past relationships, again, ignores the possibility of bisexuality.

Not to mention that well due to the large amounts of retconning already in ME nothing is safe due to what happened in the past. <_<

Sorry just my bitterness speaking.

Edit: Also with the whole race only wants to reproduce therefore they should not tolerate same sex relationships. They wouldn't tolerate relations with other species for the same exact reason yet that is a option.

Tis only an option.

Also: Kaidan had already bisexual dialogue as did Ashley. I doubt it would be a character 180 to do so otherwise the idea wouldn't have been implemented in the first place.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 avril 2010 - 04:24 .

[The_KFD_Case]

The Uncanny wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...

With all due respect, if you are not clear with yourself over what constitutes "established" in the context of which love interests in the ME universe are, or aren't, of a certain sexual orientation, then there appears little point for me to flesh out my earlier commentary on the matter. Also, since you choose to raise questions about whether any love interest in ME was established as being of one persuasion or another you did in fact interject yourself in to the debate - intentionally or otherwise. If you wish not to participate further on the matter that is entirely your prerogative.

I have opinions on the matter. They aren't immediately valid.

I raised no actual question. I simply asked someone to clarify their position. You interjected yourself on their behalf.

And you returned the favour. Which I'm now returning in kind. Shall we continue?

[The Uncanny]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

And you returned the favour. Which I'm now returning in kind. Shall we continue?

Well, as this has been such fun, I'd love to. Unfortunately, I need to get some sleep.

[Ryzaki]

Also: Are we seriously debating we know X character orientation again? I'm not saying anyone is gay/straight/bi I realize that the only people who know for certain are the writers. You can make assuptions until the cows come home but at the end of the day you're only going to be write if the writers say you're right.

Edit: Though guys do try not to get nasty with each other.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 avril 2010 - 04:26 .

[SorenTrigg]

Iehoa0083, you *do* realize that the quarians are not struggling with numbers? Did you talk to Tali much in the first game?

They can only have so many children because of resources being so strained. If their numbers diminish, they allow more breeding to happen.

So it is not like they are all "Oh gods! We need every single able person to have as many kids as possible!"

[The_KFD_Case]

SorenTrigg wrote...

What suggestive or circumstantial evidence that is not just them having a past relationship?
Because basing what you believe a sexual orientation to be entirely on past relationships, again, ignores the possibility of bisexuality.

Short of a massive rewriting of already strongly established characters, we can state factually that certain characters are definitely interested in one of the two possible genders (ex. Tali'Zorah, Miranda, Jack, Jacob, Garrus, Thane, etc). We can also establish that Liara T'soni appears to be bi-sexual though that term may have less meaning when pertaining to the Asari given their means of reproduction. These are knowns. Whether any of them - Liara aside - also happen to be bi-sexual is an unknown. Until it becomes a known variable we can only operate from what we know. This is logical and practically speaking preferable to operating from unknowns.

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 27 avril 2010 - 04:30 .

[The_KFD_Case]

The Uncanny wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...

And you returned the favour. Which I'm now returning in kind. Shall we continue?

Well, as this has been such fun, I'd love to. Unfortunately, I need to get some sleep.

Au revoir!

[Ryzaki]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Not to mention that well due to the large amounts of retconning already in ME nothing is safe due to what happened in the past. <_<

Sorry just my bitterness speaking.

Edit: Also with the whole race only wants to reproduce therefore they should not tolerate same sex relationships. They wouldn't tolerate relations with other species for the same exact reason yet that is a option.

Tis only an option.

Also: Kaidan had already bisexual dialogue as did Ashley. I doubt it would be a character 180 to do so otherwise the idea wouldn't have been implemented in the first place.

Just a hypothetical out of curiosity Ryzaki.  If Bioware provided 2 new characters in ME3 that were male and female and both bisexual LI's, would that be satisfactory to you?  Just curious.  

Yeah of course it would. But I'm a big HP debater so my eyebrow twitches when anyone goes "I know more about the character than you do nevermind the fact that I'm not the writer!" <_<

I'm a big "We don't know anything other than established canon." girl. Which is why I love fanfiction so much but get annoyed when the world "canon" comes up. (Partically in cases like Wrpgs where canon can normally be 20 different things. ). No just because you happen to like Sheploo doesn't mean he's the only canon and that FemShep doesn't exist. Sorry. She's just as valid as he is.

And no JK's blasted interviews do not count as canon. You wouldn't believe the massive debates on that subject I've had on HP boards. Seriously nearly 90 pages, huge walls of text debating about how an inteview was not canon.

Ugh. And then you had the people screaming that 'yes it was' even when the bloody interviews began to contradict one another. *headdesk* and they were still canon when they began to contradict the very events in the books!!!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 avril 2010 - 04:37 .