7455 réponses à ce sujet

[The Uncanny]

Tirigon wrote...

It´s just too hard. I don´t know why but I have a hard time accepting that humanity can be so f*cked up.......

Well report him if you didn´t do it already. Maybe that helps.

By responding you're making it worse. Ignore him or you're running the risk of getting into trouble too.

I don't want this thread to get locked, so let's stop this and get back on topic please.

[Wittand25]

Notice to everyone: Just report the troll.
Do not answer and more important do not quote him(edit out quotes you already have).
This makes it much easier for a moderator to remove him and his posts.

[ElitePinecone]

 I think it's interesting what Siansonea said about Bioware incorporating fanbase wishes into their video games. Garrus and Tali were probably never planned romance options, but enough of a case was made by enough people to get it into the final product. Maybe I'm not cynical enough, but I'd like to think Bioware would place artistic merit or satisfying their fanbase above simple financial interest. The level of detail in ME2 (which doesn't really add to its 'guns and explosions' marketability) shows that they do think of more than their potential sales figures. 

[tyddrwsau]

ElitePinecone wrote...

 I think it's interesting what Siansonea said about Bioware incorporating fanbase wishes into their video games. Garrus and Tali were probably never planned romance options, but enough of a case was made by enough people to get it into the final product. Maybe I'm not cynical enough, but I'd like to think Bioware would place artistic merit or satisfying their fanbase above simple financial interest. The level of detail in ME2 (which doesn't really add to its 'guns and explosions' marketability) shows that they do think of more than their potential sales figures. 

Naturally, the financial interest of the producers of a game is going to be very important. Games are products, made by for-profit entities, and require considerable up-front investment in production that needs to turn into returns through sales. Good writing and character development that creates hallmark game narratives subject to artistic and critical acclaim actually serves the financial interest of the game studio: especially for a group like BioWare already vested in the RPG and story-driven game line. 

Throughout this thread, folk have often come back to the financial rewards angle. The Fox News "controversy" (tempest in a teapot) over the artistically rendered romance content in ME1 didn't seem to hurt sales for that title. Same-sex romances in Dragon Age certainly hasn't hurt sales for that title and hasn't produced any significant or high profile controversy.

Making games that stand out for their rich narratives and exemplary characters, and for that matter games that stand out for being among the few with same-sex romantic content, is a way for BioWare to truly stand out from the crowd. Any game developer can pitch to the presumed lowest common denominator among game consumers and rip out a substanceless shooter to try to milk the high sales of that genre. Plenty do, and their vacuous products crowd the shelves at game stores. Not every game developer is likely to excel in these other areas, however. I hope that BioWare's marketing and finance staff recognize the inherent value of playing to the company's strengths, and taking those to new heights, as a venture with many kinds of returns.

[ElitePinecone]

tyddrwsau wrote...

Any game developer can pitch to the presumed lowest common denominator among game consumers and rip out a substanceless shooter to try to milk the high sales of that genre. Plenty do, and their vacuous products crowd the shelves at game stores. Not every game developer is likely to excel in these other areas, however. I hope that BioWare's marketing and finance staff recognize the inherent value of playing to the company's strengths, and taking those to new heights, as a venture with many kinds of returns.

My thoughts exactly. Bioware has a long history of making games that appeal to a much different market than your average "presumed lowest common demoninator". Though Mass Effect and its sequels are (rightfully) aimed at a broad(er) market, this doesn't mean that creativity and the sorts of stories that Bioware is known for should be sacrificed for the sake of a sales pitch. There can be an effective (and lucrative) balance between market appeal and mature stories, especially since quality and maturity in itself attracts many consumers to the product. 

[Siansonea]

One thing BioWare needs to think about is the Mass Effect intellectual property itself. This property could be HUGE. But if it's just a retread of Star Wars, then it's not really going to have any staying power. Star Trek and Star Wars envision universes that for the most part gloss over controversial issues that face humanity. The re-imagined Battlestar Galactica was much more fearless in dealing with political and religious taboos, and Caprica goes a step further in touching on same-sex and other nontraditional romantic arrangements. For Mass Effect to be a meaningful brand that will be remembered as something more than a cool video game from the early 21st Century, it will have to 'grow up' considerably, and not shy away from things that put the Fox News types into a tizzy and bring out the internet trolls.



In my opinion, when you bow to the lowest common denominator, you really just end up insulting the intelligence of more than half your audience. I would not say that Bioware is doing that with Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2, but there are some definite blind spots at the company. They don't seem to be able to handle romantic storytelling very well. They're not terrible, but they have a ways to go. This isn't limited to the lack of same-sex content, several of the ME2 romances (and the Ashley romance from ME1) had several moments that just felt awkward and didn't have a sense of realism. For the most part, the romantic subplots seemed to lack intensity. All the social interactions in the game could have used a couple more rewrites and better voice directing and motion capture. I know the combat is the main dish and the social aspects are the dessert, but a truly great game presents all aspects of the game as creatively and uniquely as possible.

[Stanley Woo]

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[javierabegazo]

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[The Uncanny]

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[sw33ts]

ElitePinecone wrote...

 I think it's interesting what Siansonea said about Bioware incorporating fanbase wishes into their video games. Garrus and Tali were probably never planned romance options, but enough of a case was made by enough people to get it into the final product. Maybe I'm not cynical enough, but I'd like to think Bioware would place artistic merit or satisfying their fanbase above simple financial interest. The level of detail in ME2 (which doesn't really add to its 'guns and explosions' marketability) shows that they do think of more than their potential sales figures. 

Actuallyl I believe they were always gonna do Tali but opted out of it in Mass Effect because they thought no one would want anything to do with chicken legs.  Can't remember where I read that.

[benjdot]

Siansonea II wrote...

One thing BioWare needs to think about is the Mass Effect intellectual property itself. This property could be HUGE. But if it's just a retread of Star Wars, then it's not really going to have any staying power. Star Trek and Star Wars envision universes that for the most part gloss over controversial issues that face humanity. The re-imagined Battlestar Galactica was much more fearless in dealing with political and religious taboos, and Caprica goes a step further in touching on same-sex and other nontraditional romantic arrangements. For Mass Effect to be a meaningful brand that will be remembered as something more than a cool video game from the early 21st Century, it will have to 'grow up' considerably, and not shy away from things that put the Fox News types into a tizzy and bring out the internet trolls.

In my opinion, when you bow to the lowest common denominator, you really just end up insulting the intelligence of more than half your audience. I would not say that Bioware is doing that with Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2, but there are some definite blind spots at the company. They don't seem to be able to handle romantic storytelling very well. They're not terrible, but they have a ways to go. This isn't limited to the lack of same-sex content, several of the ME2 romances (and the Ashley romance from ME1) had several moments that just felt awkward and didn't have a sense of realism. For the most part, the romantic subplots seemed to lack intensity. All the social interactions in the game could have used a couple more rewrites and better voice directing and motion capture. I know the combat is the main dish and the social aspects are the dessert, but a truly great game presents all aspects of the game as creatively and uniquely as possible.

I think that's a little bit disingenuous, to be honest. Mass Effect is not going to rival Star Wars if they put gay relationships into the game. It will stand on its own two feet as a quality franchise (and either way -- marketing the franchise with a big gay-friendly sticker is a surefire way to kill it for the mainstream....tends to attract flamboyancy, which makes a lot of straight people uncomfortable).

I think a lot of people just have to face facts. Whichever way you look at it, homosexuality (between men, at least) is seen, generally, as emasculating. To give a BAMF like Shepard the option to pursue m/m relationships undermines his bad-assery. I'm not saying that you can't be gay and badass, of course, nor that there have never been gay people in the military (!!), just pointing out that that's the way most people see it.
F/f relationships don't get the same sort of stigma, partly due to wish fulfilment and partly because it's seen as more natural for women to be closer and more open with each other on an emotional level. For guys, that's still kind of a no-no.

[SorenTrigg]

benjdot wrote...
I think a lot of people just have to face facts. Whichever way you look at it, homosexuality (between men, at least) is seen, generally, as emasculating. To give a BAMF like Shepard the option to pursue m/m relationships undermines his bad-assery. I'm not saying that you can't be gay and badass, of course, nor that there have never been gay people in the military (!!), just pointing out that that's the way most people see it.
F/f relationships don't get the same sort of stigma, partly due to wish fulfilment and partly because it's seen as more natural for women to be closer and more open with each other on an emotional level. For guys, that's still kind of a no-no.

And yet, they put m/m in Dragon Age, and that did not stop males from purchasing it.

[Ryzaki]

Why does Shepard have to be a BAMF? What I can't play a normal willing to get the job done but polite and reasonable Shepard? FYI: I'm not overly fond of renegade. So apparently punching a female reporter in the face is fine and dandy but having a homosexual relationship is a big no-no. Nice to know. Edit: And yes BAMFs can be gay.

That said I'm not overly fond of douchebag Shepard (gay or straight) so meh. Lately I've been on a good guy spree. Tis hard to even play DS in KOTOR now. Even though DSF Revan has hands down the best ending.

Also everyone's Shepard isn't the big arrogant BA renegade. So that whole BAMF arguement goes out the window seeing as you can play a "I'm going to be nice to you until you attack me." Shepard.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 avril 2010 - 10:33 .

[Siansonea]

benjdot wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

One thing BioWare needs to think about is the Mass Effect intellectual property itself. This property could be HUGE. But if it's just a retread of Star Wars, then it's not really going to have any staying power. Star Trek and Star Wars envision universes that for the most part gloss over controversial issues that face humanity. The re-imagined Battlestar Galactica was much more fearless in dealing with political and religious taboos, and Caprica goes a step further in touching on same-sex and other nontraditional romantic arrangements. For Mass Effect to be a meaningful brand that will be remembered as something more than a cool video game from the early 21st Century, it will have to 'grow up' considerably, and not shy away from things that put the Fox News types into a tizzy and bring out the internet trolls.

In my opinion, when you bow to the lowest common denominator, you really just end up insulting the intelligence of more than half your audience. I would not say that Bioware is doing that with Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2, but there are some definite blind spots at the company. They don't seem to be able to handle romantic storytelling very well. They're not terrible, but they have a ways to go. This isn't limited to the lack of same-sex content, several of the ME2 romances (and the Ashley romance from ME1) had several moments that just felt awkward and didn't have a sense of realism. For the most part, the romantic subplots seemed to lack intensity. All the social interactions in the game could have used a couple more rewrites and better voice directing and motion capture. I know the combat is the main dish and the social aspects are the dessert, but a truly great game presents all aspects of the game as creatively and uniquely as possible.

I think that's a little bit disingenuous, to be honest. Mass Effect is not going to rival Star Wars if they put gay relationships into the game. It will stand on its own two feet as a quality franchise (and either way -- marketing the franchise with a big gay-friendly sticker is a surefire way to kill it for the mainstream....tends to attract flamboyancy, which makes a lot of straight people uncomfortable).

I think a lot of people just have to face facts. Whichever way you look at it, homosexuality (between men, at least) is seen, generally, as emasculating. To give a BAMF like Shepard the option to pursue m/m relationships undermines his bad-assery. I'm not saying that you can't be gay and badass, of course, nor that there have never been gay people in the military (!!), just pointing out that that's the way most people see it.
F/f relationships don't get the same sort of stigma, partly due to wish fulfilment and partly because it's seen as more natural for women to be closer and more open with each other on an emotional level. For guys, that's still kind of a no-no.

I would argue that presenting a "BAMF" who is in every respect a BAMF, but also has the possibility of being gay or bisexual is actually quite possible. The TV show Caprica features a character who is essentially a mob hit man/tough guy, who is in a same-sex marriage and it works. Not every homosexual character has to conform to antiquated stereotypes.

And I don't want to give the impression that including same-sex content by itself would somehow elevate Mass Effect above the level of a cheesy video game, but it will help. There is a lot more that can be done to give the franchise more depth as well. Overall, less cheese, more gravitas, more shocking moments, more harsh consequences. Maybe that's not PG-13 enough, but it will get attention and keep people engaged with the material.

[Ziggy]

It seems to me that after ME1 bioware decided the series had the potential to be huge so they poured lots of money into getting famous voice actors and stunning graphics etc and didn't include any content that the lowest common denominator gamer might be put off by.
Dragon age was more typical of bioware, smaller budget game aimed at the rpg niche who are used to biware pushing boundaries.
I think they're trying to use the ME series to get a cut of the much larger shooter base and i don't know the sales figures but i think what happens in me3 will depend how successful the attempt is.

edit: actually, i'm not sure what they're thinking for ME3. Will they keep pandering to the lcd? or once they've got them will they go back to pushing boundaries? i don't know...

Modifié par Em23, 01 mai 2010 - 12:52 .

[Ryzaki]

Em23 wrote...

It seems to me that after ME1 bioware decided the series had the potential to be huge so they poured lots of money into getting famous voice actors and stunning graphics etc and didn't include any content that the lowest common denominator gamer might be put off by.
Dragon age was more typical of bioware, smaller budget game aimed at the rpg niche who are used to biware pushing boundaries.
I think they're trying to use the ME series to get a cut of the much larger shooter base and i don't know the sales figures but i think what happens in me3 will depend how successful the attempt is.

edit: actually, i'm not sure what they're thinking for ME3. Will they keep pandering to the lcd? or once they've got them will they go back to pushing boundaries? i don't know...

Nah pushing boundaries would scare the lcd off so of course they'd need to keep catering to them.

Granted nothing wrong with trying to get the big piece of the pie. Nothing wrong at all. But so many games are catering to the same audience that I'm getting a little annoyed. <_< Its not even strictly a BioWare thing its more of the whole industry. Heavy Rain was a breath of fresh air.

[Ziggy]

Ryzaki wrote...

Em23 wrote...

It seems to me that after ME1 bioware decided the series had the potential to be huge so they poured lots of money into getting famous voice actors and stunning graphics etc and didn't include any content that the lowest common denominator gamer might be put off by.
Dragon age was more typical of bioware, smaller budget game aimed at the rpg niche who are used to biware pushing boundaries.
I think they're trying to use the ME series to get a cut of the much larger shooter base and i don't know the sales figures but i think what happens in me3 will depend how successful the attempt is.

edit: actually, i'm not sure what they're thinking for ME3. Will they keep pandering to the lcd? or once they've got them will they go back to pushing boundaries? i don't know...

Nah pushing boundaries would scare the lcd off so of course they'd need to keep catering to them.

Granted nothing wrong with trying to get the big piece of the pie. Nothing wrong at all. But so many games are catering to the same audience that
I'm getting a little annoyed. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie] Its not even strictly a BioWare thing its more of the whole industry. Heavy Rain was a breath of fresh air.

You're so right. There's so much potential in gaming as a story telling medium. If only it wasn't percieved as a form of kids entertainment!! Bioware's games are a cut above all the other brainless shooters out there (which i won't deny have their place) and heavy rain was the first real glipse of an actually mature 'real' feeling game (not in the sense that it's not scifi but that the characters, plot (to some degree), dialogue, atmosphere etc feel 'real') i know of.
Games could be so much more and so few are exploring the possibilities!!

ME1 was promising and then bioware changed it's target audience to the lcd and consequently intentionally excluded same sex romance options amongst other off topic things instead of breaking new ground (that sounds a bit dramatic maybe but still). Its a good game but there's enough of that sort of attitude already.
Understandable, but not admirable and quite dissapointing.

I still think there's a chance they'll include ss romance in me3 though. Not sure how big a chance but i don't think it's a lost cause.

Modifié par Em23, 01 mai 2010 - 03:00 .

[AlanC9]

I need to apologize to you folks for that troll incident. I knew the man's nature and quality from the DA board, and I nevertheless provoked him and probably set him off. I should not have done that here.

[AlanC9]

Em23 wrote...

It seems to me that after ME1 bioware decided the series had the potential to be huge so they poured lots of money into getting famous voice actors and stunning graphics etc and didn't include any content that the lowest common denominator gamer might be put off by.
Dragon age was more typical of bioware, smaller budget game aimed at the rpg niche who are used to biware pushing boundaries.

Let's remember that DA had its share of famous voice actors too. OK, they're sci-fi famous rather than actual famous, but it still costs. And it was kind of fun to have half the cast of Voyager in DA. (Maybe they can add Ben Browder for DA 2?) DA wasn't in a different league costwise.

And I'm not sure it's so much that the ME games are pitched at the lcd. But shooter fans are a different bunch from RPG fans, and ME's attracted a lot of shooter fans. Until DA came out I thought it was a console thing, but now I'm convinced it's a genre thing.

[Ziggy]

AlanC9 wrote...

Em23 wrote...
It seems to me that after ME1 bioware decided the series had the potential to be huge so they poured lots of money into getting famous voice actors and stunning graphics etc and didn't include any content that the lowest common denominator gamer might be put off by.
Dragon age was more typical of bioware, smaller budget game aimed at the rpg niche who are used to biware pushing boundaries.

Let's remember that DA had its share of famous voice actors too. OK, they're sci-fi famous rather than actual famous, but it still costs. And it was kind of fun to have half the cast of Voyager in DA. (Maybe they can add Ben Browder for DA 2?) DA wasn't in a different league costwise.

And I'm not sure it's so much that the ME games are pitched at the lcd. But shooter fans are a different bunch from RPG fans, and ME's attracted a lot of shooter fans. Until DA came out I thought it was a console thing, but now I'm convinced it's a genre thing.

Nah the ME voice actors are way more famous, it got way more publicity, it looks way better and is way smoother than DA. All that's got to cost.

By lcd i mean the shooter fans who like more shooting than story, girls in tight clothes etc, and no homosexuality in sight. So that's what ME2 got.

Modifié par Em23, 01 mai 2010 - 03:44 .

[ElitePinecone]

Em23 wrote...

By lcd i mean the shooter fans who like more shooting than story, girls in tight clothes etc, and no homosexuality in sight. So that's what ME2 got.

I think this is true in a sense, but it's not as though Mass Effect 2 was transformed from a DAO-esque mature RPG to a mindless shooter clone. There are certainly shades of both genres in the final product, but I think it definitely appeals to a broader audience than merely fans of shooters. There was certainly a deliberate strategy in mind to market the game to a wider audience (in terms of game design and content), but I think it did retain a lot of the maturity for which Bioware is known. Storylines on the ethics of genocide, for example, wouldn't be typical of your average 'LCD' game. 

That being said, we have to consider whether the absence of s/s romances, given Bioware's history of including them in games, was due to this 'LCD' effect. Given the rather transparent reasons given for their exclusion ('we had no space', 'it's a different kind of game') I'd be inclined to believe that this was the case. 

[The_KFD_Case]

ElitePinecone wrote...

tyddrwsau wrote...

Any game developer can pitch to the presumed lowest common denominator among game consumers and rip out a substanceless shooter to try to milk the high sales of that genre. Plenty do, and their vacuous products crowd the shelves at game stores. Not every game developer is likely to excel in these other areas, however. I hope that BioWare's marketing and finance staff recognize the inherent value of playing to the company's strengths, and taking those to new heights, as a venture with many kinds of returns.

My thoughts exactly. Bioware has a long history of making games that appeal to a much different market than your average "presumed lowest common demoninator". Though Mass Effect and its sequels are (rightfully) aimed at a broad(er) market, this doesn't mean that creativity and the sorts of stories that Bioware is known for should be sacrificed for the sake of a sales pitch. There can be an effective (and lucrative) balance between market appeal and mature stories, especially since quality and maturity in itself attracts many consumers to the product. 

Aye, and yet conversely pitching a mature, in-depth RPG does not automatically necessitate that bi-sexual nor homosexual, or even heterosexual, romantic options be made available. Personally I like the fact that BioWare is a pioneer in regards to taking inter-personal relationships in a game further than anything I've experienced previously in the 25+ years I've been an active gamer.

My personal thoughts on the matter of whether there ought to be bi-sexual and homosexual LIs in ME2 & 3 aside, those whom have pointed out that the groups of individuals keenly interested in such being made available are probably right in stating that those groups are a tiny, tiny minority. Does that mean it shouldn't be included? That depends. From a financial perspective if it ends up potentially putting more possible customers off than reeling in other customers then the business answer appears to be "Yes". If it doesn't then it's all gravvy and both camps can be catered to. That said, if BioWare/EA has to rock the proverbial boat I don't doubt for a moment that they will choose the larger market share which happens to be the heterosexual crowd; this comes with a caveat though, because while the heterosexual market share is the larger one it is not guaranteed to support the same level of interest in RPGs though conversely the statistical odds would seem to favour the possibility that it does.

While ME1 and DA:O have been cited as examples of commercial success for BioWare for pushing the envelope on the bi-sexual/homosexual LI side of things, one also must consider that ME2 has also been a commercial success (presumably - I don't have direct access to BioWare's confidential financial details) without incorporating the bi-sexual/homosexual LIs in the same manner that DA:O did. Also, in regards to the comments about Tali'Zorah not being intended as a LI, it seems the reason the developers initially had doubts was because there was doubt that the audience would be able to see past the "chicken feet". Do fans impact BioWare's decision making process? Maybe to an extent. Will BioWare pull a DA:O for ME3 regarding same-sex LIs? Time will tell. In terms of logic I'm not blind to the reason behind making certain characters LI for either gender, but Zevran, bless his heart, did actually manage to make my skin crawl in DA:O despite my personal views on gay rights (if you want to know send me a message). I am not opposed to some of the party members in ME being bi-sexual or homosexual. I do oppose making all LIs automatically bi-sexual. I liken it to the type of character class one plays. I play as a Soldier class. If I want far greater access to impressive biotics abilities I'm going to have to play the game again using another class that utilizes biotics. Conversely if I want access to most of the weaponry in-game I'll have to play as a Soldier. The point being that we don't get to have access to every single item, choice nor outcome in one single play through. This isn't just limited to the romance parts, and yes I do realise that for Xbox 360 users that aren't able to mod their games it will require a willful display of fantasy to pretend that the male Shepard they are playing who is romancing Miranda or Jack or Tali is in fact female, if they want it to be a lesbian relationship. Vice versa for the male romances. Note: Kelly Chambers being the exception though some argue she is not a "true" romance which I half agree with and half disagree with.

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 01 mai 2010 - 05:31 .

[Ryzaki]

I think Zevran made people's skin crawl because he's Zevran. >_> When I found out he was the s/s option I nearly cried. I mean the guy is pretty much several unfortuante implications rolled in together. (Depraved Bisexual, and anything that moves, chronic backstabbing disorder, death by sex, anyone?).

And yeah I'm opposed to all characters being bi (that sad I'm *also* opposed to 90% of the cast wanting to jump Shepard. <_<).

Though no s/s options wouldn't immediately make the game more mature. Heck I'd take a better storyline, fully armored squadmates during battle and the ra blasted helmet toggle of s/s options anyday...heck make that any romance.

For the love of Ra BioWare. Why oh why did you remove helmet toggle?

And yes s/s romance supporters are probably a minority but granted most of the people on these boards are a minority of BWs fanbase.

And yes you're right about the fiancially viable part. Which is why I'd have no problem with them coming out and saying that instead of this predetermined character spiel. <_<

Hm. Though yes I'm not saying s/s romances are overly important to the storyline but rather something I would like to see in the game. Nothing wrong with that is there? 

Though I would prefer helmet toggle and armored squaddies during battle far more than s/s or straight romances.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 mai 2010 - 06:34 .

[The_KFD_Case]

Ryzaki wrote...

I think Zevran made people's skin crawl because he's Zevran. >_> When I found out he was the s/s option I nearly cried. I mean the guy is pretty much several unfortuante implications rolled in together. (Depraved Bisexual, and anything that moves, chronic backstabbing disorder, death by sex, anyone?).

And yeah I'm opposed to all characters being bi (that sad I'm *also* opposed to 90% of the cast wanting to jump Shepard. <_<).

Though no s/s options wouldn't immediately make the game more mature. Heck I'd take a better storyline, fully armored squadmates during battle and the ra blasted helmet toggle of s/s options anyday...heck make that any romance.

For the love of Ra BioWare. Why oh why did you remove helmet toggle?

And yes s/s romance supporters are probably a minority but granted most of the people on these boards are a minority of BWs fanbase.

And yes you're right about the fiancially viable part. Which is why I'd have no problem with them coming out and saying that instead of this predetermined character spiel. <_<

Hm. Though yes I'm not saying s/s romances are overly important to the storyline but rather something I would like to see in the game. Nothing wrong with that is there? 

Though I would prefer helmet toggle and armored squaddies during battle far more than s/s or straight romances.

It would appear that you and I are in complete agreement on this occasion....Especially regarding the remove-helmet-toggle!