7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggy]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Yeah you gotta watch those thread titles.
If you come across as angry in your op, then you probably will get more angry responses than you would if the op was less emotional and more objective IMO. 
Anger+provocative = thread goes downhill.

The responses weren't that bad at all. I don't really understand why they locked it and changed the title posthumously . There's much worse out there.

[Ziggy]

Hattie wrote...
I quite like the idea too but perhapse it is too overt a way of accommodating homophobes than just steering clear of the subject altogether as they have done now. Bioware would have to explain why they did it...

Bioware is pretty good at avoiding awkward questions [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]
But i agree, that would be particularly awkward...

Modifié par Em23, 02 mai 2010 - 07:35 .

[The_KFD_Case]

SorenTrigg wrote...

Because, it basically amounts to being able to 'turn off gay content' which just seems insulting. They should just do what they have always done and just put it in. Like with Liara and Kelly, or the other games. Just put the content in, and people can just deal.

Why exactly do you want a way to turn it off, anyhow?

Why is that insulting to you? It can be argued that it is no less insulting for those individuals whom for whatever reason(s) are uncomfortable, put out, offended etc. by bi-sexuality/homosexuality are potentially exposed to such dialogue even if they don't want that to happen. The door swings both ways. Asking or demanding that one side receive special treatment is not equality, and that appears to be precisely what you are asking for.

I support equal rights for people irrespective of their gender or sexual orientation. I do not however support giving any sub-group superior rights and/or special treatment over that of others provided they are mentally and physically capable of handling themselves. Frankly I find it insulting that some appear to demand special treatment because they are gay, bi-sexual or want these options in the game. Such a stance is no different in practice than the camp that wants the outright elimination of any trace of bi-sexuality/homosexuality in the ME games except that the two positions are on opposite sides of a scale. Each side ends up eliminating the personal freedom to choose for other people whom do not share their particular points of view. In real life it would be difficult to cater to the rights and desires of both groups simultaneously, yet since this is a computer game we are dealing with it is technically possible to cater to both sides at the same time.

As others have pointed out the player already gets to select certain background options, so what's the harm in selecting one more? Such a system is one way in which it may be possible to cater to the disparate ME fans' various likes and dislikes regarding sexual orientation and romance plots. There may be other possible solutions as well. What alternative would you personally prefer to see instead of the aforementioned one?

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 02 mai 2010 - 07:48 .

[ElitePinecone]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Bioware has done a pretty good no answer type spin on the s/s issue in ME. 

You know the whole f/f and no m/m in the game?   What do you say?  They say that they are mongo gendered aliens. 

What about Kelly?  Well she's free care loving type gal.  Ok...Where is the care free loving guy at?  Well you can only have one Yoeman, and it's Kelly.

They can spin and not answer about quite alot.

Their answers have been odd at best.

Casey Hudson:

"So we kind of pulled back and looked at where we had to draw the line in terms of how much content we make. How much should we support? We actually added a lot more romance options because we have new characters and multiple options already in the romances. So we kind of pulled back and said, “Well, the love interest is part of the story and it helps you care about the characters in a different way.”"

So it was a lack of space? They could fit 2 discs full of content, have 12 squadmembers and make a 40 hour game... and there was no content space left? Right...

Ray Muzyka: 

"Sometimes, in some of our games, we are going to have a defined character with a more defined view. Almost like a third-person narrative – where Mass Effect is more in that vein, Dragon Age isn’t in that vein; you could see the differences between the two. It’s just part of the design and the choices made for each game."

"We love giving players choice, and we are going to continue to enable that for future games. That’s a commitment for some of our franchises. For some other franchises we’ve had more defined characters and sort of approaches to things, and they’ve had a more defined personality and a more defined approach to the way they’ve proceed through the game and the world."

Ahh, so it wasn't a space issue at all. Shepard is apparently a "defined character" with a "defined view". A "defined personality". Even "a more defined approach to the way they've proceed[ed] through the game and the world". Never mind that we can choose from at least 3 romance options, skin colour, gender, appearance, morality, background, psychological profile, world view (paragon/renegade) and life story (in terms of in-game decisions). That's just about as far away as a "defined view" as I've ever seen...

[ElitePinecone]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

As others have pointed out the player already gets to select certain background options, so what's the harm in selecting one more? Such a system is one way in which it may be possible to cater to the disparate ME fans' various likes and dislikes regarding sexual orientation and romance plots. 

This is a very good explanation. 

It's not so much a question of 'pandering to the homophobes', it's an idea for one measure to make it more likely that s/s content would be included. As I've said above, in a perfect world this wouldn't be necessary. As it is, with fans' views and preferences as they are, it's one of the better ways to implement s/s romances (as well as bi-romances, no romances, etc) while ensuring the game is still popular and successful. 

[Ryzaki]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

Because, it basically amounts to being able to 'turn off gay content' which just seems insulting. They should just do what they have always done and just put it in. Like with Liara and Kelly, or the other games. Just put the content in, and people can just deal.

Why exactly do you want a way to turn it off, anyhow?

Why is that insulting to you? It can be argued that it is no less insulting for those individuals whom for whatever reason(s) are uncomfortable, put out, offended etc. by bi-sexuality/homosexuality are potentially exposed to such dialogue even if they don't want that to happen. The door swings both ways. Asking or demanding that one side receive special treatment is not equality, and that appears to be precisely what you are asking for.

I support equal rights for people irrespective of their gender or sexual orientation. I do not however support giving any sub-group superior rights and/or special treatment over that of others provided they are mentally and physically capable of handling themselves. Frankly I find it insulting that some appear to demand special treatment because they are gay, bi-sexual or want these options in the game. Such a stance is no different in practice than the camp that wants the outright elimination of any trace of bi-sexuality/homosexuality in the ME games except that the two positions are on opposite sides of a scale.

As others have pointed out the player already gets to select certain background options, so what's the harm in selecting one more? Such a system is one way in which it may be possible to cater to the disparate ME fans' various likes and dislikes regarding sexual orientation and romance plots. There may be other possible solutions as well. What alternative would you personally prefer to see instead of the aforementioned one?

FULL STOP

How on earth is asking for the romances not to have a toggle like the current ones seeing themselves as above anyone else?  That's ridculous. That would be no different than telling (I use this analogy mostly because it to me is pretty equal) someone that if there is to be a black person in the game players should be able to make them white because it makes the ones not wanting a black person in the game more comfortable. NVM the fact that you can't toggle the other character's races and then telling them "oh well you should be grateful! Its a controversial subject!" They want the romances to be a part of the game like any other option. Should their be a toggle for the Tali romance? For the Miranda one? For Jack? For Kelly? For Jacob? Thane? Garrus? At what point does it get ridculous? At what point do you go: "Okay...you're just gonna have to suck it up and ignore it." 

I know you don't mean it like that but that's how it sounds to me.

That said I don't mind the toggle but seriously there are issues with it. For one thing it places far too much empahasis on the romances themselves (especially considering they're only a sidequest to begin with), placing far to much of an emphasis on s/s romances (so I don't need a toggle to sleep with a fish man but another human of the same gender needs one? ) and is bound to step on someone's toes. Not to mention someone on a speedrun might not notice the s/s romances, while someone playing the game and having it pop up on their option screen definetely will. And if Fox News got a hold of that...."You can toggle HOMOSEXUAL relationships with full virtual PORN!!! Tis the work of the devil!!!!" 

Wait...I'd pay to see that.

And those that don't want gay romance in the game period aren't going to be placated by the toggle anyways. <_< The only thing you're doing is catering to those that don't want to get into an romance by accident something that could be solved with the colored text and not needing the whole seperation thing in the first place.

Though honestly I just want a code or something to unlock the content so no one can complain about it.

Edit: I'm not meaning to be confrontational. Just...wondering how you came to that baffling conclusion.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 mai 2010 - 08:04 .

[Ryzaki]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You missed my edit.

Though I just might roll a asexual Shepard if I have the option to toggle certain relationships. He'll even have his own theme song.

And no more getting hit on. That could only be a good thing. :innocent:

Theme soung?  Your crazy.

This sexual orientation choice would have it's fair share of advantages IMO.

I just want him to have the option to say to someone named Ray that an asexual orientation means that he's not interested in EITHER gender.

And yes I'm crazy, very much so. *hums asexual Shepard, asexual Shepard, he will do what an Asexual Shepard does*

No the song isn't supposed to make sense.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 mai 2010 - 07:58 .

[KalosCast]

It seems as if most of the races of the ME universe are still locked into 1950's gender roles, so their gays are probably just "confirmed bachelors" just like GayShep has to be.

[Ryzaki]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And those that don't want gay romance in the game period aren't going to be placated by the toggle anyways. <_< The only thing you're doing is catering to those that don't want to get into an romance by accident something that could be solved with the colored text and not needing the whole seperation thing in the first place.

I wouldn't consider that a forgon conclusions though.  There are people against it, but aren't at the same time unreasonable about it either.  Kind of like violence settings.  A lot of people against more violence, may be willing to be more open to the idea if they have a choice to choose different violence settings in the game.  You could also have settings for language as far as that goes also.   

Aye I don't have a problem with the toggle I'm just pointing out why others might.

And BW THEMSELVES said they didn't use a language filter because "this was their vision of the game and *blah blah blah*" I highly doubt BW would use a toggle for s/s romances because it made some uncomfortable and not language.

Then again that was BW before it got EA-ified so who knows.

Also you can take someone's head being blown off but can't deal with the option 2 digital guys making out? Really? Even when its completely avoidable? 

Also all the F/F wasn't toggled. Tis pretty much in your face so yeah I highly doubt BW will go with the toggle idea. It'll look silly at this point.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 mai 2010 - 08:08 .

[KalosCast]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And those that don't want gay romance in the game period aren't going to be placated by the toggle anyways. <_< The only thing you're doing is catering to those that don't want to get into an romance by accident something that could be solved with the colored text and not needing the whole seperation thing in the first place.

I wouldn't consider that a forgon conclusions though.  There are people against it, but aren't at the same time unreasonable about it either.  Kind of like violence settings.  A lot of people against more violence, may be willing to be more open to the idea if they have a choice to choose different violence settings in the game.  You could also have settings for language as far as that goes also.   

Having a "gay filter" alongside gore or language is automatically setting it up as something unnatural or wrong, like the flamethrower technology producing absolutely ludicrous deaths in ME2 (which is the only consistent bit of objectionable gore in the game, the other being in the collector ship) I'm not even gay and I would be horribly offended.

Really, you could solve the whole thing by simply toning back the absolutely ludicrous obsession that the second game had with sex and Love Interests. Well, not really solve it, but turn it into a significantly lesser issue.

Modifié par KalosCast, 02 mai 2010 - 08:09 .

[Ryzaki]

KalosCast wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And those that don't want gay romance in the game period aren't going to be placated by the toggle anyways. <_< The only thing you're doing is catering to those that don't want to get into an romance by accident something that could be solved with the colored text and not needing the whole seperation thing in the first place.

I wouldn't consider that a forgon conclusions though.  There are people against it, but aren't at the same time unreasonable about it either.  Kind of like violence settings.  A lot of people against more violence, may be willing to be more open to the idea if they have a choice to choose different violence settings in the game.  You could also have settings for language as far as that goes also.   

Having a "gay filter" alongside gore or language is automatically setting it up as something unnatural or wrong, like the flamethrower technology producing absolutely ludicrous deaths in ME2 (which is the only consistent bit of non-static gore in the game, the other being in the collector ship) I'm not even gay and I would be horribly offended.

Really, you could solve the whole thing by simply toning back the absolutely ludicrous obsession that the second game had with sex and Love Interests. Well, not really solve it, but turn it into a significantly lesser issue.

Dialogue not cutting off because you're not boinking someone would be a good start.

Same problem with KOTOR. Probably why I hated Bastila on my playthroughs as FemRevan and Carth on my playthroughs as MaleRevan. I didn't get to really know them (will you did get to know Bastila as a female revan far more than a male revan got to know carth) as much as when I was romancing them.

[KalosCast]

Ryzaki wrote...
Dialogue not cutting off because you're not boinking someone would be a good start.

Same problem with KOTOR. Probably why I hated Bastila on my playthroughs as FemRevan and Carth on my playthroughs as MaleRevan. I didn't get to really know them (will you did get to know Bastila as a female revan far more than a male revan got to know carth) as much as when I was romancing them.

That's not entirely true. Tali and Garrus go to the same dialogue point before you get to the "point of no return" and bone (granted, they're going through the exact same character development they had in the first game). Miranda is pretty close as well. Jacob, not so much. Not sure about Thane, didn't ever pursue his romantic line to the conclusion and haven't gotten him on my Male Shep runs yet. Jack's probably got the most widely varied number of conclusions based on gender or alignment, but most of her character development comes from her loyalty mission anyway.

Modifié par KalosCast, 02 mai 2010 - 08:14 .

[Ryzaki]

KalosCast wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Dialogue not cutting off because you're not boinking someone would be a good start.

Same problem with KOTOR. Probably why I hated Bastila on my playthroughs as FemRevan and Carth on my playthroughs as MaleRevan. I didn't get to really know them (will you did get to know Bastila as a female revan far more than a male revan got to know carth) as much as when I was romancing them.

That's not entirely true. Tali and Garrus go to the same dialogue point before you bone (granted, they're going through the exact same character development they had in the first game. Miranda is pretty close as well. Jacob, not so much. Not sure about Thane, didn't ever pursue his romantic line to the conclusion and haven't gotten him on my Male Shep runs yet. Jack's probably got the most widely varied number of conclusions based on gender or alignment, but most of her character development comes from her loyalty mission anyway.

True but I don't know I just felt like they stopped talking to me cold turkey.
Maybe its just me.
And Garrus and his Ra blasted callibrations. <_<

And really would it have killed the devs to place a line where a paragon Jack admits that no one has cared about her (in a non sexual and just plain friendly I.E. her first true friend that wasn't using her for something) like Shep has? (following the right dialogue options of course).

/shrug

I don't know...then again I had just played DA before watching ME so that's probably why it felt so lacking.

Da spoiled me.

[Hattie]

ElitePinecone wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...
As others have pointed out the player already gets to select certain background options, so what's the harm in selecting one more? Such a system is one way in which it may be possible to cater to the disparate ME fans' various likes and dislikes regarding sexual orientation and romance plots.

This is a very good explanation.

It's not so much a question of 'pandering to the homophobes', it's an idea for one measure to make it more likely that s/s content would be included. As I've said above, in a perfect world this wouldn't be necessary. As it is, with fans' views and preferences as they are, it's one of the better ways to implement s/s romances (as well as bi-romances, no romances, etc) while ensuring the game is still popular and successful.

That's all well and good but the media would have a field day!!
By not including any they can say all that silly stuff they said to justify it and while it is transparently silly they can still get away with it.
They will be crucified if they include an option so you do not need to see any homosexual content.

Modifié par Hattie, 02 mai 2010 - 08:19 .

[ElitePinecone]

I'd argue there'd be a bigger field day by some sections of the media (Fox News, I'm looking at you) if they included (m/m) homosexual content without a 'toggle'. Not to mention the reaction from some players.

[The_KFD_Case]

Ryzaki wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

Because, it basically amounts to being able to 'turn off gay content' which just seems insulting. They should just do what they have always done and just put it in. Like with Liara and Kelly, or the other games. Just put the content in, and people can just deal.

Why exactly do you want a way to turn it off, anyhow?

Why is that insulting to you? It can be argued that it is no less insulting for those individuals whom for whatever reason(s) are uncomfortable, put out, offended etc. by bi-sexuality/homosexuality are potentially exposed to such dialogue even if they don't want that to happen. The door swings both ways. Asking or demanding that one side receive special treatment is not equality, and that appears to be precisely what you are asking for.

I support equal rights for people irrespective of their gender or sexual orientation. I do not however support giving any sub-group superior rights and/or special treatment over that of others provided they are mentally and physically capable of handling themselves. Frankly I find it insulting that some appear to demand special treatment because they are gay, bi-sexual or want these options in the game. Such a stance is no different in practice than the camp that wants the outright elimination of any trace of bi-sexuality/homosexuality in the ME games except that the two positions are on opposite sides of a scale.

As others have pointed out the player already gets to select certain background options, so what's the harm in selecting one more? Such a system is one way in which it may be possible to cater to the disparate ME fans' various likes and dislikes regarding sexual orientation and romance plots. There may be other possible solutions as well. What alternative would you personally prefer to see instead of the aforementioned one?

FULL STOP

How on earth is asking for the romances not to have a toggle like the current ones seeing themselves as above anyone else?  That's ridculous. That would be no different than telling (I use this analogy mostly because it to me is pretty equal) someone that if there is to be a black person in the game players should be able to make them white because it makes the ones not wanting a black person in the game more comfortable. NVM the fact that you can't toggle the other character's races and then telling them "oh well you should be grateful! Its a controversial subject!" They want the romances to be a part of the game like any other option. Should their be a toggle for the Tali romance? For the Miranda one? For Jack? For Kelly? For Jacob? Thane? Garrus? At what point does it get ridculous? At what point do you go: "Okay...you're just gonna have to suck it up and ignore it." 

I know you don't mean it like that but that's how it sounds to me.

That said I don't mind the toggle but seriously there are issues with it. For one thing it places far too much empahasis on the romances themselves (especially considering they're only a sidequest to begin with), placing far to much of an emphasis on s/s romances (so I don't need a toggle to sleep with a fish man but another human of the same gender needs one? ) and is bound to step on someone's toes. Not to mention someone on a speedrun might not notice the s/s romances, while someone playing the game and having it pop up on their option screen definetely will. And if Fox News got a hold of that...."You can toggle HOMOSEXUAL relationships with full virtual PORN!!! Tis the work of the devil!!!!" 

Wait...I'd pay to see that.

And those that don't want gay romance in the game period aren't going to be placated by the toggle anyways. <_< The only thing you're doing is catering to those that don't want to get into an romance by accident something that could be solved with the colored text and not needing the whole seperation thing in the first place.

Though honestly I just want a code or something to unlock the content so no one can complain about it.

Edit: I'm not meaning to be confrontational. Just...wondering how you came to that baffling conclusion.

1) As I specifically pointed out the toggle option is one of possibly several solutions. I'm quite willing to consider other options as and when they are presented.

2) Some of the comments on this thread strike me as being guilty of the very thing they lambast others for: Asking for special treatment. For some the special treatment they want is to ensure that no bi-sexual/homosexual romance plots be included because it offends their sensibilities. For others it is to ensure that bi-sexual/homosexual romance plots be included because it offends their sensibilities if they are left out. That creates a situation whereby the two camps are diametrically opposed and appear to the be anti-thesis of one another. That renders the likelihood of a mutually acceptable solution difficult, if not outright unlikely, save for the ability to grant each side what they specifically desire at the same time. The toggle system would theoretically allow for just such an outcome since it relies on each individual's input/desires without needing to take in to consideration the input/desires of any other player.

3) When someone attacks another person for having a point of view not conducive to their own - be it pro-same sex or anti-same sex - they are effectively engaging in the same action though for different reasons. What I take issue with are individuals who claim they want fair and equal treatment yet then fail to take in to consideration the needs/wants of other people while branding those same people as being selfish or out of touch with reality, etc. As I mentioned the door swings both ways. If one group - be it pro or anti-same sex relationships - wans equal rights they must by logical necessity also extend those very same rights to other people and groups; even ones they vehemently disagree with. Which is why I brought up the point of this being a computer game, etc. because in the real physical world it would be difficult to grant both sides what they desire simultaneously without stepping on the other side in the process. However, since this is a virtual world we are dealing with it is only limited by the software and hardware capabilities of its creators. Thus with a system such as the proposed toggle system it ought to be possible to cater to both groups simultaneously and that is the point of this: Such a system would be fair to both camps. Neither side loses anything to the other short of whichever personal hang-ups and chips-on-shoulders that an individual may have...And quite frankly such things are not the responsibility of anyone else except the person carrying them.

Ultimately this is about choice. The ability of each individual to choose for him or herself. When we have the ability to empower each player in the game irrespective of their different points of view why not do so?

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 02 mai 2010 - 08:27 .

[Ziggy]

Hattie wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...
As others have pointed out the player already gets to select certain background options, so what's the harm in selecting one more? Such a system is one way in which it may be possible to cater to the disparate ME fans' various likes and dislikes regarding sexual orientation and romance plots.

This is a very good explanation.

It's not so much a question of 'pandering to the homophobes', it's an idea for one measure to make it more likely that s/s content would be included. As I've said above, in a perfect world this wouldn't be necessary. As it is, with fans' views and preferences as they are, it's one of the better ways to implement s/s romances (as well as bi-romances, no romances, etc) while ensuring the game is still popular and successful.

That's all well and good but the media would have a field day!!
By not including any they can say all that silly stuff they said to justify it and while it is transparently silly they can still get away with it.
They will be crucified if they include an option so you do not need to see any homosexual content.

They're pretty good at talking their way around stuff but it's harder once it's out in the open like that.

Modifié par Em23, 02 mai 2010 - 08:25 .

[Nuclear]

Damn the media. The only reason things like this are left out is because they blow everything out of preportion. Unless it fits their controlled ideals they bash even the most pathetic things. (remember in the first ME with all the stuff about sex scenes?) You can have loads of violence and blood in your games but sex and homosexuality is a big NO-NO...

[KalosCast]

Ryzaki wrote...

And really would it have killed the devs to place a line where a paragon Jack admits that no one has cared about her (in a non sexual and just plain friendly I.E. her first true friend that wasn't using her for something) like Shep has? (following the right dialogue options of course).

Erm... she pretty much that it word for word several times over the paragon progression.

[The_KFD_Case]

-ßeta- wrote...

Damn the media. The only reason things like this are left out is because they blow everything out of preportion. Unless it fits their controlled ideals they bash even the most pathetic things. (remember in the first ME with all the stuff about sex scenes?) You can have loads of violence and blood in your games but sex and homosexuality is a big NO-NO...

Hopefully without coming across as too blase about this, that double standard (i.e. violence vs. sex) does seem to be more prevalent in North America than in Europe. It doesn't make much sense to me logically why one is apparently more acceptable than the other for younger audience members.

[KalosCast]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

2) Some of the comments on this
thread strike me as being guilty of the very thing they lambast others
for: Asking for special treatment. For some the special treatment they
want is to ensure that no bi-sexual/homosexual romance plots be included
because it offends their sensibilities. For others it is to ensure that
bi-sexual/homosexual romance plots be included because it offends their
sensibilities if they are left out. That creates a situation whereby
the two camps are diametrically opposed and appear to the be anti-thesis
of one another. That renders the likelihood of a mutually acceptable
solution difficult, if not outright unlikely, save for the ability to
grant each side what they specifically desire at the same time. The
toggle system would theoretically allow for just such an outcome since
it relies on each individual's input/desires without needing to take in
to consideration the input/desires of any other player.

No. Just... no.

I hate to play race here, but this would be like saying that you could accomodate the racists by adding in an option to whitewash Kasumi and Jacob. You're taking a trait of human beings (and presumably aliens) that's completely natural and a significant portion of the world's population and then claiming that they're demanding special attention by wanting to have even just one character share that same trait simply because other people are too emotionally stunted to handle it.

Modifié par KalosCast, 02 mai 2010 - 08:32 .