7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

I disagree that NPCs only serve the purpose of making you happy when playing a game. They exist to help tell the story/provide the entertainment experience (in whatever flavour it may be,) that the creators envision.

And they can´t provide entertainment experience when forcing me to choose between 2 LIs, at least not if you can´t persuade them otherwise.

Not for repeated playthroughs, at least.

[Ryzaki]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

I'll focuse on the latter two of your three comments since the first comment is in agreement with my previous first comment.

2) I take issue with the people that appear to want the same-sex option for each and every LI in the ME games. I do not have a problem with making certain characters same-sex only LIs, nor making some that are bi-sexual. Conversely there should also be only heterosexual LIs in my opinion. I suppose one of the issues BioWare faces if it decides to change its approach in ME3 regarding such matters will be which characters will be altered to fit this desire? It is no more nor less selfish for the anti-same sex people to want Tali'Zorah, Miranda, Jack, Jacob, etc. to remain heterosexual LIs than it is for pro-same sex people to want these characters to become at the very least bi-sexual LIs. If one wants to really become technical about this then a bi-sexual LI option already exists in ME2 - well potentially two actually but only one of them is directly available in ME2 - which would be Kelly Chambers and Liara T'soni. That may not be sufficient choice for some people yet the fact remains that the choice does exist albeit perhaps not quite to the extent they might like. Then again disappointment with certain in-game decisions are hardly limited to this one area.

First off so do I. That is a given. Kelly isn't an LI. She's a fling. (A very badly implemented s/s fling but we've already gone over that. <_<). And yeah most of that is true.

3) If you do not believe that everyone should have equal rights (barring specific mitigating circumstances), then this discussion becomes moot and for all intents and purposes the pro-same sex supporters who share the same point of view are just as guilty of totalitarian and tyrannical behaviour as the more extreme members of the anti-same sex movement. You can not ask/demand respect and not grant the same to the very people you demand it of. Well, you can yet such an approach is likely to rile a few feathers and if this debate does turn in to an attempt by a minority to push a majority in to a corner things could get very ugly, very quickly once the majority feels harrassed to the point of wanting to retaliate (and given it's superior size, resources and presumed strength it is likely going to be a very one-sided affair). This is why I personally consider steady attempts at rational, reasonable logic and persuasion to be preferable to an all-out confrontation.

True that's why I'm pro the toggle. But don't act as though there's nothing offensive and borderline ridculous about it.

Furthermore, we are dealing with the specific topic of same-sex relationships; not racism. While the two topics may seem related they are not one and the same thus direct relevance between the two is questionable. That aside, would I have a personal problem if someone wanted to toggle Jacob in to being Caucasian, Latino/Hispanic, Asian, African, etc. in appearance? No; I might consider it somewhat silly for someone to obsess so much over a surface character trait in a fictional character in a make-believe game but what said person decides to do in the confines of his/her private home without violating certain specifically egregrious laws is not really my concern and vice versa. It can also be argued that since Jacob appears as he does by what one presumes to be the willful decision of the developers then that's how it's meant to be in the game and one can take it or leave it. This train of logic is just as applicable to same-sex LI demands, so perhaps playing the race card on this occasion should be done with care.

Ah so you'd be fine with the toggle for race. Hey you're consistent I'll give you that. Granted I wouldn't have a problem with it either. /shrug however some would be just as offended as the s/s people with the toggle that's the comparison I'm trying to make.

For the record it comes as no revelation to me that not all individuals are necessarily equal in stature, ability, perceived value, etc. yet that is not to say that each individual should not be granted access to certain rights regardless. Equal rights and the somewhat subjective worth of an individual are not one and the same thing. Just as morality and religion are not one and the same thing. The same goes for lust and love, etc

Obviously everyone knows that. Though that said I'm a very "survival of the fittest" type person so that probably explains my borderline grey morality.

[Ryzaki]

KalosCast wrote...

I'm arguing the idea of having a "gay content filter" on toggle, similar to how some games have sliding scales of blood/gore. Which is exactly the same thing as demanding that NPCs behave in a certain way. In fact, the whole point of my argument is that there should be a choice. Not some magic toggle button to hide the content because including same-sex romance options is some how magically "pandering to the gays" but having straight options isn't "pandering to the straights"

QFT.

Why can't we have a magical toggle with language then? With certain character's outfits? With nudity? With certain topics? 

At what point do we stop making toggles to make things magically dissappear so people don't have to deal with them?

[Ryzaki]

Nordic Einar wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Lot of posts since I last posted to
the thread. Lots of deliberate misunderstanding too. I can't possibly
invest the time to read all the back-and-forth, but I did want to
respond to one point that keeps coming up.

Enough with the
comparisons to race. Customizing SHEPARD is not the same
thing as a toggle to change NPC attributes. The Shepard sexual
orientation toggle idea ONLY AFFECTS SHEPARD. You aren't changing
ANYTHING about the NPCs. All you're doing is ensuring that your
Shepard doesn't accidentally go off in an unplanned direction because
you misunderstood the conversation keyword choices. Some characters
might still express an interest in Shepard, because that's what
their character would do. But a locked Shepard wouldn't have the
option of responding in a way that would further that relationship, because
that's what that particular Shepard would do.

I think
this would be a good idea, because I might actually want a Shepard who
is not open to certain types of relationships or any relationships at
all. I would also want other Shepards who are open to anything. All this
idea does is give the player another way to customize their Shepard. If
anything, the opposition to this idea is more like opposing the option
to customize SHEPARD'S skin color, because 'it shouldn't be about
race' or something.

Why is this so hard to understand? If you
want something, you have to give something, and the scale of 1 to
kidney, I think this idea is a pretty small 'sacrifice'.

Rubbish. Why not include a Paragon/Renegade choice in the beginning them? Perhaps I'm offended by some of the morally grey decisions Shepard can partake in - I don't want to accidently participate in one! Therefore, I should simply indicate, from the beginning, that I will never kick a puppy and will always save the pretty ladies!

That's ridiculous and more or less the same thing we're discussing here - except that there's no icky gay men involved in the Paragon/Renegade choice.

Also this. What if some people get offended at the idea of a man punching a woman  in the face? Should their be a toggle so those options disappear or do we just leave those options in and give them clear warning so they don't partake? 

[Ryzaki]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

Actually I did not know that "most of you" favour a coloured coded text option. Whether the majority truly feels this way or not is not something I am privvy to without further empirical research. Regardless, if that option is acceptable then the toggle option appears equally acceptable. Each one requires that the individual player chooses for him/herself. Claims of bigotry against those who might opt to toggle same-sex dialogue off or on with the toggle option are just as applicable to the coloured text option since that too can be argued to be discriminatory in some sense. That's the inherent problem with topics of this nature: Just about anyone, anywhere can claim to be offended/discriminated against by those options, so to be on the safe side BioWare should simply completely drop the features which would make for a far worse end product in my opinion. Political correctness taken too far can be just as damaging as a number of other things taken too far. To paraphrase Aristotle, "Everything in moderation including moderation itself". In other words, there may well be a time and place for most anything - both moderation and extremism.

How on earth is it extreme?!? You're giving people a choice without locking the content out! There's noting extreme about that! For pete's sake look at DA! Is there a toggle for anything other than gore in that game! No! Because all options are (or most are) clearly spelled out so you don't have to make them! ...I don't know why I'm getting so irritated but whatever. /shrug. I'm pro toggle despite this but meh. (fails to see how the toggle isn't political correctness but colored text somehow is).

Edit: I don't think people here want anyone hitting on shep without Shep making the first move. (The colored text would help with that). So how is this forcing anything on players if no player is being hit on or flirted with without making the first move? 

The option to allow each player to choose as he/she desires does indeed grant a "everyone wins!" scenario for those involved. It seems that the issue at hand is beginning to merge with a larger desire to change some other people's perceptions. If Mr. X and Mrs. Y can both get the gaming experience they prefer - be it with or without same-sex options - then that addresses the desires of both sides without detracting from the other. Not doing so will inevariably force one side's desires upon the other whichever way the final verdict goes in regards to pro or anti-same sex LIs.

And why the need for the toggle then? All you do is restrict choices. What if someone decides mid-game they want to persue a s/s option but choose straight? Now what? Unless you want to keep the toggle on the options menu at all times. (Which frankly this whole toggle nonsense is ridculous for pete's sake LANGUAGE doesn't even have a toggle but we have to hide the icky gay men? (Not to mention we didn't bother with a toggle for the "omg hawt lesbians!") like really? Really? 

...This is enough to drive me back to JRPGs. At least whenever they have a gay character there's no "hide your gays!" syndrome. (Even if they tend to be DBs.).

P.S. Technically Caucasians are a global minority.

I know but I'm used to living in the good old US where blacks are nicely marginalized a good deal of the time. <_<

And blacks are a smaller population here. Around 14%. (And decreasing supposedly).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 mai 2010 - 09:05 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

*walks into thread*
*looks at current situation*
*tries to decipher*

hmm, this is hard to follow all of a sudden

*leaves to come back later*

EDIT:  Ah yes, edits, now things are becoming a little more clear

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 02 mai 2010 - 08:13 .

[Ryzaki]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
QFT.

Why can't we have a magical toggle with language then? With certain character's outfits? With nudity? With certain topics? 

At what point do we stop making toggles to make things magically dissappear so people don't have to deal with them?

That is coming close to a "slippery slope" fallacy IMO.

Using your argument, one that is against s/s or homosexuality could say this:

"Why do we have to have homosexual content in the game?  At what point do we stop.  It may only lead to the acceptance of other deviant behaviour in the future because we will become desensitized.  Who is to say that if we allow s/s in game, that the next thing will be pedophillia or bestiality?"

^That would also be considered a slippery slope fallacy.

Point. but that's the whole issue with toggles. They naturally lend themselves to it. (Of course blood/gore is a given)

Though why isn't language toggleable in ME? Its not like they'd have to censor a lot of it.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Oversight

[Ryzaki]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Oversight

Nah they were asked in the (old) forums and started saying something about the language was apart of the game and the game was rated M and something that sounded like "deal with it" but in a more polite manner.

Still why not? I'm sure a language toggle (and readable text on SDTVs) would have been something people appreciated.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 mai 2010 - 08:21 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Kind of like the *helmet toggle* ?



Wait why are we going toggle crazy all of a sudden?

[Ryzaki]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Kind of like the *helmet toggle* ?

Wait why are we going toggle crazy all of a sudden?

Why on earth did they take out the helmet toggle. *whines* I mean come on! Helmet toggle was win!

...I don't know...because its fun to turn them on and off?

Also would this s/s romance toggle be on the options menu permantely or just in the character creation screen? 

JohnnyDollar wrote...

The language doesn't bother me
personally, but I have played other games that have it in the settings. 
I guess they don't feel the majority demographic really cares either
way, but I don't know.

I don't mind the language
either but its there for those that don't want to deal with it so.
/shrug. Kind of like nudity and blood and gore. I never
turn it off but some do.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 mai 2010 - 08:24 .

[Tirigon]

I actually think everyone should be bisexual. It seems more logical to me.

To quote Kelly: "Character matters, not race or gender."



The best line ever said in a game, imo. Sadly BioWare didn´t act according to it when they implemented the LIs.

[Tirigon]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Kind of like the *helmet toggle* ?

Wait why are we going toggle crazy all of a sudden?

The more toggles, the more customization.

The more customization, the better the chance everyone will enjoy the game.

[Tirigon]

slimgrin wrote...

Since when are natural biological urges logical?

Did I say they are?

[Ryzaki]

Tirigon wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Kind of like the *helmet toggle* ?

Wait why are we going toggle crazy all of a sudden?

The more toggles, the more customization.

The more customization, the better the chance everyone will enjoy the game.

What? So there'd be a "everyone is bi" toggle?

That would be too much win.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 mai 2010 - 08:25 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

No that would rewrite the characters to fit how your character should be written. Might as well change their names and all of their dialogue to.

[Ryzaki]

Also the whole ninja romancing issue isn't going to go away with a romance toggle where it would with the colored text.

[Ryzaki]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

No that would rewrite the characters to fit how your character should be written. Might as well change their names and all of their dialogue to.

But wouldn't the whole straight toggle already do that to the Bi character? 

[Tirigon]

Ryzaki wrote...

What? So there'd be a "everyone is bi" toggle?

That would be too much win.

I´d certainly like it. And whoever does not like gays or bisexuals can use the "only heteros exist" toggle instead of complaining.

Everyone wins.

[Tirigon]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

No that would rewrite the characters to fit how your character should be written. Might as well change their names and all of their dialogue to.

Too much trouble. But actually, in theory it´d be great. A game that plays like another game when you use a different character would be cool, even if it will never happen.



It wouldn´t be necessary either. It would simply do something like (using DAO examples here):

If you choose "everyone is bi" dialogue choices will be like with Leliana now.
If you choose "No gays" the dialogue choices will be similar to Morrigan´s and the flirting dialogue options will only be available to males.

Modifié par Tirigon, 02 mai 2010 - 08:32 .

[Ryzaki]

Tirigon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

What? So there'd be a "everyone is bi" toggle?

That would be too much win.

I´d certainly like it. And whoever does not like gays or bisexuals can use the "only heteros exist" toggle instead of complaining.

Everyone wins.

I think everyone would be pro this. (except of course those that don't want certain characters to be bi anyways even with a toggle.)

[Ryzaki]

Tirigon wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

No that would rewrite the characters to fit how your character should be written. Might as well change their names and all of their dialogue to.

Too much trouble. But actually, in theory it´d be great. A game that plays like another game when you use a different character would be cool, even if it will never happen.

Have you played Star Ocean 2 before? 

Not the biggest of differences but there's enough of one between the two main characters.