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[The Uncanny]

Has everybody seen Chris Priestly's comment over here?

Edit: Oops! Sorry Tirigon - didn't notice you'd ninja'd me. *Cough* Please carry on. Nothing to see here...

Modifié par The Uncanny, 04 mai 2010 - 07:09 .

[Tirigon]

Nvm, the more often we link this the better!

[The Uncanny]

Tirigon wrote...

Nvm, the more often we link this the better!

Yeah... I have the distinct feeling that is going to get quoted a lot...

[LiquidGrape]

Already posted this in the Samara thread, but I figured it was of some peripheral importance to this cause.

[SorenTrigg]

iamthespark wrote...

How about having an option during character creation like a checkbox under "Sexuality" = gay, stragiht, bi; and then the universe will treat us as such, with perhaps special dialogue options and what not.

I would suggest reading the last few pages of the thread. We kind of had a big argument about that already.

[Ryzaki]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Already posted this in the Samara thread, but I figured it was of some peripheral importance to this cause.

*wonders if that makes him a bigger fruit for not looking at all*

[Syledir]

Wittand25 wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...
I think his expression was more a figure of speech to poke at the ones being "******-phobic", rather than him having such a view on it, himself.

As for why BioWare's left it out, I seem to recall some rep saying something like "it wouldn't fit the character we've built", but don't quote me on it. Furthermore, I remember Greg or Ray(I think it was one of them, but I'm not sure who) talking about player characters in games like Mass Effect, and games like Dragon Age, it was some months ago, and I don't remember where, so I can't provide a link. In games like Dragon Age, the story, and by an extension, the player character, is told from a first person perspective, the player character's personality traits and quirks, as well as the way the character solves the problems he/she encounters, are solely for the player to decide. And then there's games like the Mass Effect games, where the story plays out in a 3rd person perspective, the player character is already preset by the writes to a limited amount of personalities, the player is given some freedom, but the ultimate design of the character is up the writers.

Both approaches to storytelling is something the people at BioWare enjoys, and they will continue to develop stories using both sets.

As I said, I don't even remember word for word, and certainly not where I read this, and I think the article covered other concerns as well. Fans heated discussions about gay  relationships in ME games was one of the reasons he posted the article, I believe.

BioWare already have put gay relationships(m/m) in two of their games, Jade Empire and Dragon Age, proving that it's not something they are adverse to. 

This is adressed in the first three posts on this very thread. We all have read that interview and come to the agrement that it was merly trying to dodge a question that he did not expect and had no good answer for.
Shepard beeing anymore predefined than the warden is actually silly considering that Shepard has:
no defined sex; no defined race; no defined appearance; no defined birtplace; no defined military history all these things get choosen by the player at the very start of ME1 or 2, additionally Shepard (if female does not even have a defined sexual orientation.

I agree. Bioware stated that Shepard is a predefined character. Seen in every trailer and any ME2 cover. The problem is, it is pretty much the same with Dragon Age: Origins. Trailers for that game picture the Warden as Aedan Cousland, the male Warrior with the human noble origins armed with a sword and a shield. And he even looks like (predefined) Shepards brother. Not exactly the same, but they are alike. So the only difference is, that there is no quick start in Dragon Age like in Mass Effect: male, soldier, blablabla.

By the way. I remember vaguely that Bioware said, that they want Mass Effect not be just any adventure, but YOUR adventure. YOUR game. I believe it was said somewhere in a Making Of Trailer, but I could take a look again, if you want.

And look where we are now. This is not some stupid misunderstanding. It's an insult to our intelligence.

[Ziggy]

They have to say that kind of thing. If they said "so that anti-gay people will buy the game" they would get sued.

[Syledir]

SorenTrigg wrote...

iamthespark wrote...

How about having an option during character creation like a checkbox under "Sexuality" = gay, stragiht, bi; and then the universe will treat us as such, with perhaps special dialogue options and what not.

I would suggest reading the last few pages of the thread. We kind of had a big argument about that already.

You're right, but I can't remember that this argument has been resolved. The pros and cons about the toggle and coloured text, that indicates: You're entering romance terrain, if I remember correctly. Why don't use both. A toggle for homosexuall, heterosexuall and very important to me bisexuall (why so important? I'll explain in a moment.) for people who feel uncomfortable in the presence of other people who don't share their sexuall orientation. After all it's a game. A game should be fun and not make people uncomfortable. AND the coloured text. Because some of us want to have a relationship with another crewmember without being an ass to all the others. Unrealistic? Again it's a game.
Then include both mechanics into the game. If that's to complicated include it into a DLC. If that's to expensive make an Add-On like Dragon Age: Awakening WITH the romance not without it. Make every romanceable character in the games (yes ME 1 and 2) available for male and female Shepard. Why every NPC? Well there are people who prefer Jack over Jacob, but play a femshep and want a romance with Jack. What if just Tali is available as a bisexuall character? I know THAT would make a lot of people happy. But then a new argument would arise about why after Liara women get Tali. Are lesbians only allowed to have sex with aliens? Allright let's make Jack available too. Great, now they give us the stereotype.... You see where I am going? The same goes with the male NPC's and the ones from ME 1. It would be far more easier for everyone, if Bioware would make every NPC available for everyone, so we can finally life in peace and discuss the important things in life like slow elevators or hacking mini-games.
Make the Add-On or romance DLC. In the beginning a big victory celebration on Illium, Omega, who cares. Before the party starts, (if you don't have a romantic interest already. And if you want a homosexuall romance, you don't) Shepard calls one of the NPC's. Shepard makes the call because you, the player, needs to choose which of the NPC's is the one you want to romance. You take your pick. The NPC agrees to meet with you. There you confess your undying love blablabla. I'm not sure how the NPC's need to react. It ranges from:"What took you so long" to "I am willing to give it a try." Tough, but I am sure the writers from Bioware are more than up to it. From that point on the game continues to the party with holding hands, slow dancing, watching the stars, joking with others and everything else that springs to mind. If its not just a DLC but an Add-On the mission starts and Shepard comes to the rescue to whatever, fill in the blank. In the end Shepard gets the girl, guy or alien gets a big romantic love scene and saves the galaxy. At least that's how I would solve this problem and make a bit of coin in the end. Because, by all means, DLC or Add-On. It will cost. But I am willing to pay for good product and i guess I am not alone.

[LyletheBloody]

Eh, seems like there is a Canon Shepard to me; I'm OK with that. I also agree that it is OK if YOUR particular Shepard is different than the canon version.

As far as the gay/lesbian Romance option thing, as BioWare stated, they have been possible in many of the previous franchises and games. A Lesbian relationship is possible in ME1 and ME2.

My point is, if they offered every possible gay/lesbian Romance option in EVERY single game, people would become accustomed to them and they wouldn't be as novel, surprising, or interesting when you did find them. In my opinion, that would cause them to be less entertaining.

I give BioWare a 100% free pass on this. If they don't implement something like this in SWTOR, then maybe the complaint would have more weight.

Modifié par LyletheBloody, 05 mai 2010 - 03:39 .

[Syledir]

Em23 wrote...

They have to say that kind of thing. If they said "so that anti-gay people will buy the game" they would get sued.

But they could undo their mistake aswell instead of making cheap excuses. As for the anti-gay people. Dragon Age and Jade Empire had both m/m and f/f romance options and did Bioware sell less because of them? No. Did they have to fight with huge uproars and where they trapped in a ****storm? No. Nothing will happen, unless homosexuall romances aren't forced on the players like heterosexuall romances are forced on them now.

[LyletheBloody]

Em23 wrote...

They have to say that kind of thing. If they said "so that anti-gay people will buy the game" they would get sued.

Judging by the past games that had gay relationships available (most recently and notably Dragon Age:  Origins), I don't think that has anything to do with it.

[FataliTensei]

On the subject of a toggle option...how about they just let you choose your sexual orientation, then you're not really toggling "gay" anymore than you're toggling "straight"

[Syledir]

FataliTensei wrote...

On the subject of a toggle option...how about they just let you choose your sexual orientation, then you're not really toggling "gay" anymore than you're toggling "straight"

I'm fine with that, too.

[Syledir]

LyletheBloody wrote...

Eh, seems like there is a Canon Shepard to me; I'm OK with that. I also agree that it is OK if YOUR particular Shepard is different than the canon version.

As far as the gay/lesbian Romance option thing, as BioWare stated, they have been possible in many of the previous franchises and games. A Lesbian relationship is possible in ME1 and ME2.

My point is, if they offered every possible gay/lesbian Romance option in EVERY single game, people would become accustomed to them and they wouldn't be as novel, surprising, or interesting when you did find them. In my opinion, that would cause them to be less entertaining.

I give BioWare a 100% free pass on this. If they don't implement something like this in SWTOR, then maybe the complaint would have more weight.

So you would be ok with it, if Miranda, Jack, Jacob and Thane were all gay and only Garrus and Tali were straight? Just for example, of course.

[Ryzaki]

...there is no canon Shepard. Priestly just said so.

[Ziggy]

LyletheBloody wrote...

Em23 wrote...
They have to say that kind of thing. If they said "so that anti-gay people will buy the game" they would get sued.

Judging by the past games that had gay relationships available (most recently and notably Dragon Age:  Origins), I don't think that has anything to do with it.

ME2 has a different target audience from biowares other games. No other explanation makes sense. For some reason i don't buy the whole 'predetermined character' thing.

[KalosCast]

FataliTensei wrote...

On the subject of a toggle option...how about they just let you choose your sexual orientation, then you're not really toggling "gay" anymore than you're toggling "straight"

Kind of limits your RP options, and would make for a rather abrupt shift if you chose to be gay from the menu. You'd have exhibited little to no interest in people of the same gender, and may have even casually flirted with people of the oppsite gender and then all of a sudden everybody in the universe is like "okay, Shepards gay now".

And anyway, why does it have to be a toggle anyway, I still don't understand this. If you don't want a Mirandamance, don't hit on Miranda. If you don't want a Xenomance, don't hit on Tali. If you don't want a Gaymance, don't hit on men.

[FataliTensei]

KalosCast wrote...

FataliTensei wrote...

On the subject of a toggle option...how about they just let you choose your sexual orientation, then you're not really toggling "gay" anymore than you're toggling "straight"

Kind of limits your RP options, and would make for a rather abrupt shift if you chose to be gay from the menu. You'd have exhibited little to no interest in people of the same gender, and may have even casually flirted with people of the oppsite gender and then all of a sudden everybody in the universe is like "okay, Shepards gay now".

And anyway, why does it have to be a toggle anyway, I still don't understand this. If you don't want a Mirandamance, don't hit on Miranda. If you don't want a Xenomance, don't hit on Tali. If you don't want a Gaymance, don't hit on men.

Ehh it's one of those "compromise" things we have to do

I'm pretty sure they would include bisexual as an option in that as well, that way people who don't want limited RP options can choose that and play through normally. Personally though I would choose the "gay" option just so every damn woman Shepard meets would stop flirting with him

Modifié par FataliTensei, 05 mai 2010 - 04:32 .

[Ryzaki]

Well if we have to compromise with that blasted toggle I want more than one s/s option per gender. Heck its not like they'll have to see it in that case.

[KalosCast]

FataliTensei wrote...

Ehh it's one of those "compromise" things we have to do

I'm pretty sure they would include bisexual as an option in that as well, that way people who don't want limited RP options can choose that and play through normally. Personally though I would choose the "gay" option just so every damn woman Shepard meets would stop flirting with him

I don't buy that. Everybody was fine with the lack of a toggle in previous Bioware escapades. I'd rather have them just not write one then for there to be a toggle because some people are too sexually insecure.

And it still shoot character continuity between the past to iterations to hell.

Modifié par KalosCast, 05 mai 2010 - 05:10 .

[SorenTrigg]

There *is* a default Shepard. But there is *no* canon Shepard. There is a difference.



Now, you already all know how much I despise the idea of a toggle, so I will not get into that again...

However, why would Shepard 'changing' orientation mess with character continuity? I mean, people figure things out and suddenly realize things, even when they are older.

[Ryzaki]

SorenTrigg wrote...

There *is* a default Shepard. But there is *no* canon Shepard. There is a difference.

Now, you already all know how much I despise the idea of a toggle, so I will not get into that again...
However, why would Shepard 'changing' orientation mess with character continuity? I mean, people figure things out and suddenly realize things, even when they are older.

So everyone in the universe getting older means they recognize Shepard as gay? 

[KalosCast]

SorenTrigg wrote...

Now, you already all know how much I despise the idea of a toggle, so I will not get into that again...
However, why would Shepard 'changing' orientation mess with character continuity? I mean, people figure things out and suddenly realize things, even when they are older.

Which means that every shepard who takes the gay/bi option is required to have a sudden epiphany about their sexuality, or "come out of the closet" yeah... that's great writing

[Syledir]

KalosCast wrote...

FataliTensei wrote...

On the subject of a toggle option...how about they just let you choose your sexual orientation, then you're not really toggling "gay" anymore than you're toggling "straight"

Kind of limits your RP options, and would make for a rather abrupt shift if you chose to be gay from the menu. You'd have exhibited little to no interest in people of the same gender, and may have even casually flirted with people of the oppsite gender and then all of a sudden everybody in the universe is like "okay, Shepards gay now".

And anyway, why does it have to be a toggle anyway, I still don't understand this. If you don't want a Mirandamance, don't hit on Miranda. If you don't want a Xenomance, don't hit on Tali. If you don't want a Gaymance, don't hit on men.

It doesn't have to be a toggle at all. But some people might think it's necessary. So, I'll say put it in, if it makes you happy. As long as homosexuall romances are available. We have to come to an agreement somewhere. It doesn't look very good if we knock on the door of Bioware and demand same sex relationships and at the same time argue with each other how it should be done.
So I try to be as clear as possible. I prefer the coloured text solution, coupled with Shepard has to make the first move, so that no one can say: "I had a gay romance by accident and I'll be traumatized for the rest of my life." BUT if a toggle, safebox, whatever needs to be included to make it happen, than I am the last who has any objections.
If that is the case however, I would like to have the option of being bisexuall. I forgot to mention earlier why that is so important to me. A to simply remove the "okay, Shepards gay now" experience, like you mentioned right now. And B because than you can choose your romance based on the NPCs personality you like the most. A bisexuall Shepard who won't be discouraged by race or gender and appreciates love and affection for something precious no matter from whom, is a truly remarkable character. At least as far as I believe.