7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Tirigon wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

I think that we have better chances to get the s/s romance with other solutions than such a toggle for the simple reason that this toggle would require changes in the core mechanics of the game because it switches genderchecks on and off and is therefore hard to implement int the game.

I have a Fanmod for DAO installed that does exactly that. If some fan with the toolset can do it, BioWare programmers should be able to do it, too, shouldn´t they?

Doesn't the Genderring change your literal gender? 

[SorenTrigg]

Siansonea II wrote...

Let me ask you this: what do you think the point is? Why is it that you think someone might think this idea is a tolerable compromise?

Sian, I understand that this would be a decent compromise. I mean, it would solve a lot of problems. The content would be put in, which would make us happy, and it could be turned off for people that are uncomfortable with it. I know that this is a good idea, if we want to do that.

But you just need to understand that it is not entirely fair, especially since they already have f/f content in ME1 and 2. As well as having m/m in prior games. A compromise is not really something we should have to do at this point. As has been pointed out, Dragon Age did not bomb due to having m/m in it. Yes, I know, ME is a different market, but still.
All I want is for the same sex romances to be treated the same (like the same sex romance in Mass Effect 1 is). Is that too much to ask, really?

[Siansonea]

Tirigon wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


Oh look, Soren is asking "why" again. I bet when you were growing up your first word was "why". At least you've found a new way of asking "why" with "what would be the point of it". You know, you could easily pick up other languages, since you only have to learn the one word. It must really simplify things for you, since all you ever have to do is ask why all the time. You must be the life of the party.

Siansonea what´s wrong with you?
Soren asked a question because s/he wanted more information about my PoV. That´s a valid post that brings a discussion ahead.

All YOU do here is insulting Soren for that......

All Soren does is ask the same question over and over, it's always some variant of "why"? As if the "why" is not obvious. As if the "why" hasn't been explained ad nauseum already. Repeatedly asking pointless "why" questions is no substitute for a coherent stance on a topic. All Soren is expressing is "I refuse to budge or consider other viewpoints at all". How does this further the discussion?

Tell us, Soren, why do YOU feel the way you do? Why do you assume that your viewpoint is the only valid one? Why do you feel that people who feel differently from you are somehow not entitled to the same courtesy and consideration that you demand? Tell us, Soren, WHY?

[Tirigon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Doesn't the Genderring change your literal gender? 

It does, but I´m not talking about it, but about another mod.

[Siansonea]

SorenTrigg wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Let me ask you this: what do you think the point is? Why is it that you think someone might think this idea is a tolerable compromise?

Sian, I understand that this would be a decent compromise. I mean, it would solve a lot of problems. The content would be put in, which would make us happy, and it could be turned off for people that are uncomfortable with it. I know that this is a good idea, if we want to do that.

But you just need to understand that it is not entirely fair, especially since they already have f/f content in ME1 and 2. As well as having m/m in prior games. A compromise is not really something we should have to do at this point. As has been pointed out, Dragon Age did not bomb due to having m/m in it. Yes, I know, ME is a different market, but still.
All I want is for the same sex romances to be treated the same (like the same sex romance in Mass Effect 1 is). Is that too much to ask, really?

So because Dragon Age has it, Mass Effect should have it?

Are they the same development teams? Is Dragon Age a RPG/Shooter hybrid? Are all aspects of the games equivalent?

I really get tired of the 'fairness' argument. It's not fair!! Okay, I'll give you that, it's NOT fair. What's your point? Lots of things are unfair, why is this particular instance of unfairness more egregious than others? Because it directly affects you?

[Wittand25]

Tirigon wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

I think that we have better chances to get the s/s romance with other solutions than such a toggle for the simple reason that this toggle would require changes in the core mechanics of the game because it switches genderchecks on and off and is therefore hard to implement int the game.

I have a Fanmod for DAO installed that does exactly that. If some fan with the toolset can do it, BioWare programmers should be able to do it, too, shouldn´t they?

All the npcs adress your pc with the right pronouns?
And DA was programmed to be open for modification, that does not mean that it is as easy to change things in ME.
Bioware can do it no doubt, but it is alot of work for little payoff so it would be hardly consider worth the effort.
And dont forget that such an toggle would be recieved by both supporters and opposers as neutral at best, as insulting at worst and definatly  not generate positive publicity with anyone.

[Ryzaki]

Still I'm sure more people would be pro toggle if we got more than one s/s LI out of the deal. I shouldn't have to deal with them being perfectly comfortable while I get table scraps.

[Tirigon]

Siansonea II wrote...

So because Dragon Age has it, Mass Effect should have it?

Are they the same development teams? Is Dragon Age a RPG/Shooter hybrid? Are all aspects of the games equivalent?

I really get tired of the 'fairness' argument. It's not fair!! Okay, I'll give you that, it's NOT fair. What's your point? Lots of things are unfair, why is this particular instance of unfairness more egregious than others? Because it directly affects you?

Just for interest, are you in favor of Same Sex romances or against it?


If something is unfair, one should try to change it.

There are of course more important problems than the lack of gay romances in a game, but this forum is about BioWare games so we talk about unfairness in BioWare games and not about, for example, religious or political problems.

[Siansonea]

Tirigon wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


BioWare omitted the content for a reason.

The reason is: The idiots pay more than we.

That´s why I am in favor of a toggle for the NPCs.

Humorous, but has this been verified? What source are you citing to back up this assertion?

And for the sake of clarification, I think we need to expand the nomeclature here, the term 'toggle' is being thrown around as if it means something, and at this point it's meaning has been blurred beyond all recognition. Some people thinks it means changing NPCs basic attributes and attitudes to fit the player's desires. Some think it means limiting Shepard's dialogue options to prevent him/her from pursuing conversation topics that go against the player's intent for that Shepard. Let's throw the word toggle into the recycle bin for now. Or if we must use it, then we should clarify it with "NPC attribute customization toggle" and "Shepard attribute customization toggle". Does that sound more clear to everyone?

[SorenTrigg]

Siansonea II wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Let me ask you this: what do you think the point is? Why is it that you think someone might think this idea is a tolerable compromise?

Sian, I understand that this would be a decent compromise. I mean, it would solve a lot of problems. The content would be put in, which would make us happy, and it could be turned off for people that are uncomfortable with it. I know that this is a good idea, if we want to do that.

But you just need to understand that it is not entirely fair, especially since they already have f/f content in ME1 and 2. As well as having m/m in prior games. A compromise is not really something we should have to do at this point. As has been pointed out, Dragon Age did not bomb due to having m/m in it. Yes, I know, ME is a different market, but still.
All I want is for the same sex romances to be treated the same (like the same sex romance in Mass Effect 1 is). Is that too much to ask, really?

So because Dragon Age has it, Mass Effect should have it?

Are they the same development teams? Is Dragon Age a RPG/Shooter hybrid? Are all aspects of the games equivalent?

I really get tired of the 'fairness' argument. It's not fair!! Okay, I'll give you that, it's NOT fair. What's your point? Lots of things are unfair, why is this particular instance of unfairness more egregious than others? Because it directly affects you?

Firstly, because something is unfair is exactly why we need to try to get something changed.
Secondly, it is a game. Bioware was going to put the content in, they have put in same sex content before (in Mass Effect even). So, it is not that big of a deal if they do it again.

Third, it does not directly affect me at all. I play a female Shepard, I have romanced Kaidan, and I will stay loyal to him.

[Siansonea]

Tirigon wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So because Dragon Age has it, Mass Effect should have it?

Are they the same development teams? Is Dragon Age a RPG/Shooter hybrid? Are all aspects of the games equivalent?

I really get tired of the 'fairness' argument. It's not fair!! Okay, I'll give you that, it's NOT fair. What's your point? Lots of things are unfair, why is this particular instance of unfairness more egregious than others? Because it directly affects you?

Just for interest, are you in favor of Same Sex romances or against it?


If something is unfair, one should try to change it.

There are of course more important problems than the lack of gay romances in a game, but this forum is about BioWare games so we talk about unfairness in BioWare games and not about, for example, religious or political problems.

I support the inclusion of the content, and if there was no change to the implementation of it, that would suit me just fine. I just seek to accommodate other players who maybe aren't as open-minded as I am. I don't automatically despise these people because they don't share my viewpoint. Ironically, I find myself more irritated by those of you who actually SHARE my attitude toward same-sex content. The rigid and unsympathetic stance that those people just need to 'get over it' doesn't seem very helpful.

[Siansonea]

SorenTrigg wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Let me ask you this: what do you think the point is? Why is it that you think someone might think this idea is a tolerable compromise?

Sian, I understand that this would be a decent compromise. I mean, it would solve a lot of problems. The content would be put in, which would make us happy, and it could be turned off for people that are uncomfortable with it. I know that this is a good idea, if we want to do that.

But you just need to understand that it is not entirely fair, especially since they already have f/f content in ME1 and 2. As well as having m/m in prior games. A compromise is not really something we should have to do at this point. As has been pointed out, Dragon Age did not bomb due to having m/m in it. Yes, I know, ME is a different market, but still.
All I want is for the same sex romances to be treated the same (like the same sex romance in Mass Effect 1 is). Is that too much to ask, really?

So because Dragon Age has it, Mass Effect should have it?

Are they the same development teams? Is Dragon Age a RPG/Shooter hybrid? Are all aspects of the games equivalent?

I really get tired of the 'fairness' argument. It's not fair!! Okay, I'll give you that, it's NOT fair. What's your point? Lots of things are unfair, why is this particular instance of unfairness more egregious than others? Because it directly affects you?

Firstly, because something is unfair is exactly why we need to try to get something changed.
Secondly, it is a game. Bioware was going to put the content in, they have put in same sex content before (in Mass Effect even). So, it is not that big of a deal if they do it again.

Third, it does not directly affect me at all. I play a female Shepard, I have romanced Kaidan, and I will stay loyal to him.

I am trying to get things changed too. But for you it's All or Nothing. Guess which one you're more likely to end up with.

For some reason BioWare thinks it's a big deal, even if you don't. I think BioWare's views will prevail regardless.

It does directly affect me. I want one of my male Shepards to be bisexual or gay, to differentiate him further from my other two male Shepards. I also want one of my female Shepards to be bisexual or gay (and have succeeded to an extent with Liara and Garrus) to further differentiate her. But just because I want the content included does not mean that I expect everyone to just accommodate my wishes without any sort of compromise. Everything is a negotiation, but when it devolves into "gay is bad, mmmkay?" and "oh, yeah, well get over it" it just becomes an impasse.

[Tirigon]

Siansonea II wrote...

I support the inclusion of the content, and if there was no change to the implementation of it, that would suit me just fine. I just seek to accommodate other players who maybe aren't as open-minded as I am. I don't automatically despise these people because they don't share my viewpoint. Ironically, I find myself more irritated by those of you who actually SHARE my attitude toward same-sex content. The rigid and unsympathetic stance that those people just need to 'get over it' doesn't seem very helpful.

Well, like I posted a few pages ago, I think homophobe attitudes are a bit like racism - totally irrational and stupid.

That doesn´t mean you have to think homosexuality is better than hetero, of course. It´s just a different attitude and everyone is entitled to his opinion.

I do however think that one should not respect anti-gay feelings just because they seem to be the majority - homosexuality is a totally normal behaviour and if anyone doesn´t like it s/he should just GET THE F*CK OVER IT.

I do not see this stance as rigid or intolerant. In private those people can do whatever they want, but they should not try to limit other people´s freedom.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah...you know what the more I think about it the more I'd rather not have it at all than a toggle. The toggle just makes me facepalm.

[KalosCast]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...
And dont forget that such an toggle would be recieved by both supporters and opposers as neutral at best, as insulting at worst and definatly  not generate positive publicity with anyone.

I would say that suddenly making NPC's bisexual or homosexual in ME3, that have been only portrayed as heterosexual so far, would make people scratch their heads regardless of whether it is done through settings or a dialog wheel.  I don't know about what publicity it would generate, but it certainly wouldn't look like anything containing continuity to me either way.

Yeah, which is why I'm a supporter of the idea that you should either go all the way with it or not to do it at all. To me, half-assing the content in is just saying "okay here guys, we did what you wanted, now shut the hell up." I don't consider excluding the content to be discriminating agaisnt homosexual players (I think there's somewhere between 0 and 1 Hispanic people in the ME universe, but I don't think that's racism). But the idea of it being something "special" that has to be accomodated in a way as not to hurt the sensibilities of players who just want to play Standard Male Power Fantasy #56 is just insulting.

[FKA_Servo]

I don't think that would be awful. Retcons can be handled well - and if anyone can pull it off elegantly, it's Bioware. Plus, I don't think it's too late in the narrative to retcon yet - third game might be though.

[Tirigon]

Why should it be impossible to make one of the already existing characters bi?

I mean, in ME1 you couldn´t romance Tali and Garrus - now you can, and noone complains.

Besides they can find a justification.



For example:

Shepard: "Why did you never tell you like men, Jacob?"

Jacob: "Well the alliance is pretty backwards in some aspects. As a gay amidst a squad of male soldiers it can get awkward..."

Shepard: "So you feared you might be hated for your preferences?"

Jacob: "Yeaaaa. But when I met you I knew that the priiize is worth the heavy risk..."

*They kiss*





Ok this is crappy, but you get the idea...

[Wittand25]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

In all likelihood, my guess is that Bioware recorded all the audio early including the s/s audio, with the possibility of making one of them bi.  Maybe a male character, I would assume.  They haven't done it though.  They would need to introduce a new one to keep continuity I would think.  If not, it'll come off as an obvious retconn I  would think.

 I am not opposed to a slight retcon for ME2.
And if they make a statement along the lines of:
"The NPC was planned as available for both male and female, but due to time constraints we could not finish the same sex romance and had it finished by the DLC team and offer it now as DLC."
people would have little ground to argue against the implementation of the contnet.
And Bioware would get tons of publicity because the DLC would be considerd controversial and all gamesites would report about it on page one.
If they realy have all or most audio the programming of the romance would be rather cheap and the DLC would be an ideal canditade for the Cerberusnetwork generating even more good feedback for beeing free.

Modifié par Wittand25, 05 mai 2010 - 08:10 .

[Ryzaki]

Wittand25 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

In all likelihood, my guess is that Bioware recorded all the audio early including the s/s audio, with the possibility of making one of them bi.  Maybe a male character, I would assume.  They haven't done it though.  They would need to introduce a new one to keep continuity I would think.  If not, it'll come off as an obvious retconn I  would think.

 I am not opposed to a slight retcon for ME2.
And if they make a statement along the lines of:
"The NPC was planned as available for both male and female, but due to time constraints we could not finish the same sex romance and had it finished by the DLC team and offer it now as DLC."
people would have little ground to argue against the implementation of the contnet.
And Bioware would get tons of publicity because the DLC would be considerd controversial and all gamesites would report about it on page one.
If they realy have all or most audio the programming of the romance would be rather cheap and the DLC would be an ideal canditade for the Cerberusnetwork generating even more good feedback for beeing free.

And everyone who didn't want the content could ignore it. So yeah everyone wins.

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah...you know what the more I think about it the more I'd rather not have it at all than a toggle. The toggle just makes me facepalm.

...and which 'toggle' is that, Ryzaki?

How about this idea: BioWare implements fair and equitable same-sex content in ME3 without toggles, colored text or descriptive conversation keywords, OR we don't purchase the game or any remaining DLC. Who's with me? You all seem to have very inflexible attitudes about the topic, so are you willing to put your money where your mouth is?