7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Tirigon wrote...
I mean, in ME1 you couldn´t romance Tali and Garrus - now you can, and noone complains.

*raises hand* Um, I actually would like to complain about those two romances. They are silly fanservice, and inconstent with the Tali and Garrus I met in ME1. I would much rather they hadn't gone down this road. I mean, Shepard can't even share a meal with these characters, and yet somehow all the pheremones and whatnot align and these dextro-amino-acid types are all gooey over Shepard. Lame.

[Ryzaki]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah...you know what the more I think about it the more I'd rather not have it at all than a toggle. The toggle just makes me facepalm.

...and which 'toggle' is that, Ryzaki?

How about this idea: BioWare implements fair and equitable same-sex content in ME3 without toggles, colored text or descriptive conversation keywords, OR we don't purchase the game or any remaining DLC. Who's with me? You all seem to have very inflexible attitudes about the topic, so are you willing to put your money where your mouth is?

Hm? Who on earth said I wouldn't get the game without s/s romance?  I was always planning on getting the game. No matter if there were no romances. I'm not inflexible about this topic but the toggle is where I draw the line. Nice jumping down my throat though for one who claims to be mature. I was always pro colored text or the romance version of [investigate] so yeah you really can take that attitude somewhere else.

I hate DLC on principle so I wouldn't buy it regardless.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2010 - 08:25 .

[Tirigon]

Siansonea II wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
I mean, in ME1 you couldn´t romance Tali and Garrus - now you can, and noone complains.

*raises hand* Um, I actually would like to complain about those two romances. They are silly fanservice, and inconstent with the Tali and Garrus I met in ME1. I would much rather they hadn't gone down this road. I mean, Shepard can't even share a meal with these characters, and yet somehow all the pheremones and whatnot align and these dextro-amino-acid types are all gooey over Shepard. Lame.

Ok, let me rephrase:
I mean, in ME1 you couldn´t romance Tali and Garrus - now you can, and only a very limited number [so far consisting of one person] of fans complain.

[Ryzaki]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And everyone who didn't want the content could ignore it. So yeah everyone wins.

Everbody?  Ummm not necessarily, unless they did it as a DLC  again in the 3rd game. 

*thought we were talking about the 3rd game*

[Ryzaki]

Oh /shrug I guess then there could be DLC for ME3 to then.

[Wittand25]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh /shrug I guess then there could be DLC for ME3 to then.

No it should be in Me3 right from the start equal to the straight romances ( I can live with the way the start of the m/m romance was in JE, but that is as far as it can go and still be equal).
But DLC is the only way we can get a s/s romance in ME2 and I am not ready to give up hope for that game yet.

[Siansonea]

I'm taking the highway again. Have it your way kids.

[LiquidGrape]

The way I see it, Same Sex Romance must be implemented.

It's the one way we can defeat the reapers!

[Nordic Einar]

I could've picked up a copy of ME2 of my own quite a while ago - but considering the lack of S/S Romances and the continued lack luster responses to it's exclusion? I'll pick it up when it's 10 dollars or so and spend my money on games that allow me to properly represent myself - like DA:O.



So, yeah. I haven't bought ME2 yet, and probably won't buy ME3 unless S/S romances are implemented. At least not until they're down to dirt cheap on Steam. Alternatively, include them and I'll immediately buy both. <Shrugs>

[Syledir]

Siansonea II wrote...

Boy, this conversation would be a lot more productive if people could read and understand written text.

I just popped in to reiterate that my idea for the 'toggle', 'box', etc DOES NOT CHANGE NPC ATTITUDES OR ACTIONS IN ANY WAY. For instance, in this scenario, "Zevran" (whoever that is) would still hit on male Shepard. The only thing that would change is that Shepard's ability to respond would be governed by the choice made at character creation. It would only affect SHEPARD. Seriously, I think I've said this several times now. It's not 'turning off content'. NPCs wouldn't suddenly treat Shepard differently. They wouldn't know Shepard's preference necessarily. Someone like Aria T'Loak might, and she might tell Shepard to find a nice man/woman to relax with based on that knowledge, but there would be very few other instances where the NPC's dialogue is affected. All this idea would do is limit or expand Shepard's dialogue options based on the player's choice. Say you want to have a gay male character, but you still want to be nice to the female squad members. This option would also make it impossible for Shepard to accidentally start a romance with one of the women. Not seeing the downside myself.

But hey, BioWare is supposed to be an agent of social change, right? Forget society in general, if we could just establish parity in a video game, then all the world's ills will be cured, right?

Personally, I think this is a dead issue at this point. Neither side will budge an inch, so we'll just have to accept things the way they are and somehow manage to get through our lives.

Oh, my bad. What I meant was to throw the now existing "gender check" out. For example: Male Shepard meets Jacob => Romance options unavailable. Male Shepard meets Miranda => Romance options unlocked. Instead a "sexual preference check" takes its place. Example: Female Shepard (homosexuall) meets Jacob => Romance options unavailable. Female Shepard (homosexuall) meets Miranda => Romance options unlocked. If someone wants to have all romances, simply switch homosexuall or heterosexuall to bisexuall and all romanceabel NPCs are available.

It's only a dead issue, if you convince yourself that it is one. But resignation won't help the issue. Your opinion is valued, even if you don't believe it anymore.

[Erode_The_Soul]

Wow...perhaps it's just my inability to detect tone through text, but the last few pages seem....unnecessarily hostile. Personally, I would much rather there be colored text to distinguish ALL romances, rather than a "Select your orientation" option at the start. *shrug*

[Syledir]

Siansonea II wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Personally, I don't like the idea of being able to switch on different character traits of the non-player characters. I think Garrus should be Garrus in everyone's game, not for everyone to have their 'own' Garrus. I think that is a TERRIBLE idea.

You do have to remember, though, that the characters do change some depending on how Shepard interacts with them.
Heck, even between male and female potentially. In one, Garrus is just someone who respects Shepard. In another, Garrus is someone who respects Shepard enough to have sex with her that requires research on how to get it done.

*buzzer* WRONG. Garrus hasn't changed in this scenario, SHEPARD has. Garrus responds differently to a male Shepard and to a female Shepard. How is this not the same Garrus?

In ME 1 Garrus responds strongly to your reasoning. Tell him often enough that the Renegade way is the only way and he will follow your example. Tell him about the Paragon way of live and he will change his views. The same goes with Kaiden and Ashley. And it continues in ME 2. Jack for example can have a relationship with you or just a one night stand. She can survive or she can die.

So in a way in your game Garrus IS by all means YOUR Garrus. That goes for allmost all the other NPC's aswell.

[Krigwin]

LiquidGrape wrote...

The way I see it, Same Sex Romance must be implemented.
It's the one way we can defeat the reapers!

While I lol'd hard at this gif, the Reapers are not an example of a Chekhov's gun.

A Chekhov's gun is an object or element introduced early on, but its significance is not revealed until much later in the story. For instance, in the play Uncle Vanya by Anton Chekhov himself, the Chekhov's gun is just an ordinary pistol that the characters find at the Serebryakov house, that the character Ivan uses much later in the story to attempt to kill Aleksandr.

The Reapers on the other hand, certainly are introduced early on, but their significance is explained right away (they kill everyone, lols). Then the entire first game is an adventure to stop them. Then the entire second game is an adventure to stop them. You're reminded of this pretty much every step of the way (Stopping the Reapers is my whole reason for this Shepard - The Illusive Man).

A better example of a literary technique that the Reapers represent is the ticking clock scenario, in which the entire story is driven forward by the threat of impending doom.

and that has been your literary nerd moment of the day, brought to you by a literary nerd



...On topic though, I'd be much more impressed if Bioware made a same-sex romance that didn't involve aliens. I always felt the Liara so-called "lesbian" romance in ME1 was a bit of a cop-out, as all Asari are bisexual to begin with, so it wasn't so much a statement or unusual occurrence as a biological inevitability. If on the other hand, there was a MShep+Kaidan, or FShep+Jack romance, that would be making a statement.

[Syledir]

Siansonea II wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Let me ask you this: what do you think the point is? Why is it that you think someone might think this idea is a tolerable compromise?

Sian, I understand that this would be a decent compromise. I mean, it would solve a lot of problems. The content would be put in, which would make us happy, and it could be turned off for people that are uncomfortable with it. I know that this is a good idea, if we want to do that.

But you just need to understand that it is not entirely fair, especially since they already have f/f content in ME1 and 2. As well as having m/m in prior games. A compromise is not really something we should have to do at this point. As has been pointed out, Dragon Age did not bomb due to having m/m in it. Yes, I know, ME is a different market, but still.
All I want is for the same sex romances to be treated the same (like the same sex romance in Mass Effect 1 is). Is that too much to ask, really?

So because Dragon Age has it, Mass Effect should have it?

Are they the same development teams? Is Dragon Age a RPG/Shooter hybrid? Are all aspects of the games equivalent?

I really get tired of the 'fairness' argument. It's not fair!! Okay, I'll give you that, it's NOT fair. What's your point? Lots of things are unfair, why is this particular instance of unfairness more egregious than others? Because it directly affects you?

No, Soren, it's not too much to ask. And I agree this shouldn't be an issue anymore. So it is up to us to remind Bioware of that.

And, Siansonea, not because Dragon Age has it. It's rather because Bioware has always been one of the few game studios that tried to keep an open and fair mind about good romance, including same sex romance. Since Knights of the old Republic (my first BioWare game) it seemed to me that Bioware was on a constant march forward in terms of equality. A march that found a conclusion in Dragon Age Origins. Finally a studio with a spine and talent. Since KotoR I bought every game of BioWare blindly. My faith in their creations unwavering. I ordered the Collectors Edition TWO times becames I wanted to have both armors. The one from Amazon and the one from Gamestop. (I know I am a geek.) And now here I am. Here we are. Back to step one. Sometimes I still think: This is Bioware! No way the will screw us like this! Have a laugh at our expense! I feel betrayed, because before every other game came out the question was: Will there be same sex romance? The answer was always yes. Now the question changed. There was no question about if there is same sex romance available, but how many. So, how many same sex romances will be in Mass Effect2?
Not a single one.
What?
Yeah, we changed our mind.

[Syledir]

Siansonea II wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


BioWare omitted the content for a reason.

The reason is: The idiots pay more than we.

That´s why I am in favor of a toggle for the NPCs.

Humorous, but has this been verified? What source are you citing to back up this assertion?

And for the sake of clarification, I think we need to expand the nomeclature here, the term 'toggle' is being thrown around as if it means something, and at this point it's meaning has been blurred beyond all recognition. Some people thinks it means changing NPCs basic attributes and attitudes to fit the player's desires. Some think it means limiting Shepard's dialogue options to prevent him/her from pursuing conversation topics that go against the player's intent for that Shepard. Let's throw the word toggle into the recycle bin for now. Or if we must use it, then we should clarify it with "NPC attribute customization toggle" and "Shepard attribute customization toggle". Does that sound more clear to everyone?

Agreed. I will be more specific from now on.

[Syledir]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah...you know what the more I think about it the more I'd rather not have it at all than a toggle. The toggle just makes me facepalm.

...and which 'toggle' is that, Ryzaki?

How about this idea: BioWare implements fair and equitable same-sex content in ME3 without toggles, colored text or descriptive conversation keywords, OR we don't purchase the game or any remaining DLC. Who's with me? You all seem to have very inflexible attitudes about the topic, so are you willing to put your money where your mouth is?

I am with you. Like i said earlier I've bought the Collectors Edition twice to get both armors from Amazon and Gamestop. But I've just got the first 3 achievments and than stopped and never touched it again. Anyone who doesn't believe me, feel free to check my Xbox account. I refuse to play a game or god forbid buy DLC from a company that felt free to betray our trust.

[sw33ts]

@ Siansonea II

I haven't been here for a week or so, so I don't know exactly who you're talking about when you said people are against the colored text and descriptive conversation. It seems like you just wanted to batch us as all "bad?"



And I'm sorry I'm against the Toggle thing as well. The whole if I choose straight for my Shepard no homos better hit on me. Lol. It's a game. If you feel uncomfortable playing a game where a bit of pixels make you uncomfortable for hitting on you (and yet I'm sure you're fine beheading someone in some other game) then maybe you should reevaluate your feelings.



To me having a toggle on sexuality is like saying it's taboo and we should be able to turn it off if we like. Will I ever stop playing Mass Effect and not play 3? No probably not, but then again I borrow my friend's so it's not really my money spent.

[Dan the Man with a Plan]

I don't think that Bioware wants to exclude gays and lesbians, but maybe their trying to avoid some of the heat the nuts at Fox News have been sending their way. I think Bioware should include the same sex love interests like they have in past games, I wouldn't use that because that isn't the way I swing. But i think people should have the freedom of who they can love even in a videogame.

[mjboldy]

Dan the Man with a Plan wrote...

I don't think that Bioware wants to exclude gays and lesbians, but maybe their trying to avoid some of the heat the nuts at Fox News have been sending their way. I think Bioware should include the same sex love interests like they have in past games, I wouldn't use that because that isn't the way I swing. But i think people should have the freedom of who they can love even in a videogame.

I think today's society is at least to the point where if FOX News or any other news source chastises Mass Effect for having same sex romances, there would be quite the major backlash.

[Syledir]

sw33ts wrote...

@ Siansonea II
I haven't been here for a week or so, so I don't know exactly who you're talking about when you said people are against the colored text and descriptive conversation. It seems like you just wanted to batch us as all "bad?"

And I'm sorry I'm against the Toggle thing as well. The whole if I choose straight for my Shepard no homos better hit on me. Lol. It's a game. If you feel uncomfortable playing a game where a bit of pixels make you uncomfortable for hitting on you (and yet I'm sure you're fine beheading someone in some other game) then maybe you should reevaluate your feelings.

To me having a toggle on sexuality is like saying it's taboo and we should be able to turn it off if we like. Will I ever stop playing Mass Effect and not play 3? No probably not, but then again I borrow my friend's so it's not really my money spent.

Just in theory. Let's say BioWare would actually consider making a same-sex-romance DLC. They ask how we would make that happen. We give them the coloured text version. BioWare asks for a few weeks to consider. A few weeks later they come back and say that the coloured text is not enough. We fear that visible romance text lines, even if the players has no intention to use them, would make our costumers uncomfortable and we are unable to grant your wishes.
Would you tell them to that they should reevaluate their feelings and leave? I think it is better, if there is a Plan B. You could return and offer the additional option of a "sexual preference" check in the character creator menue.

You see instead of insulting them (intentional or not) you show your good will. If it helps to make you feel better, and I say this without trying to insult you, think of them as children who still need to learn and you help them with that. Just keep it to yourself, because children or not, some peoples feelings get hurt very easily. I am not saying my way is the only way. But we have to come to a solution somewhere. I can agree with you that coloured text is enough and we don't need the "toggle". But what if BioWare demands for more than coloured text. Can you agree with me, that as a Plan B additional "sexuall preference options" make sense. Or do you have a better idea. Honestly.

[Syledir]

mjboldy wrote...

Dan the Man with a Plan wrote...

I don't think that Bioware wants to exclude gays and lesbians, but maybe their trying to avoid some of the heat the nuts at Fox News have been sending their way. I think Bioware should include the same sex love interests like they have in past games, I wouldn't use that because that isn't the way I swing. But i think people should have the freedom of who they can love even in a videogame.

I think today's society is at least to the point where if FOX News or any other news source chastises Mass Effect for having same sex romances, there would be quite the major backlash.

The last time Fox News tried to show BioWare on a bad light, their fans stood behind them. The one woman, I forgot her name, who was called an expert stood under enormous pressure afterwards. BioWares fans gave her book the the worst ratings, reviews, whatever possible. Not very long after that the woman apologized and said there was more sexuall content in an episode of lost than in the entire game (Mass Effect). There were no major backlashes for Dragon Age Origins whatsoever. Still that was first game from BioWare that actually showed a romance scene between to males. As long as there are no exclusively gay romance options, nothing will happen.

[mjboldy]

Syledir wrote...

mjboldy wrote...

Dan the Man with a Plan wrote...

I don't think that Bioware wants to exclude gays and lesbians, but maybe their trying to avoid some of the heat the nuts at Fox News have been sending their way. I think Bioware should include the same sex love interests like they have in past games, I wouldn't use that because that isn't the way I swing. But i think people should have the freedom of who they can love even in a videogame.

I think today's society is at least to the point where if FOX News or any other news source chastises Mass Effect for having same sex romances, there would be quite the major backlash.

The last time Fox News tried to show BioWare on a bad light, their fans stood behind them. The one woman, I forgot her name, who was called an expert stood under enormous pressure afterwards. BioWares fans gave her book the the worst ratings, reviews, whatever possible. Not very long after that the woman apologized and said there was more sexuall content in an episode of lost than in the entire game (Mass Effect). There were no major backlashes for Dragon Age Origins whatsoever. Still that was first game from BioWare that actually showed a romance scene between to males. As long as there are no exclusively gay romance options, nothing will happen.

Yeah, I was there. I was there when a bunch of Mass Effect fans voted Cooper Lawrence 1 star on Amazon.com because they felt it was fair to judge her book without reading it when she judged Mass Effect without playing it (of course she later retracted the statements she made on FOX News after she actually watched the scenes). Those were good times.

Anyways, I was talking more about if they had the news story focus solely on same sex romances. Besides, with the amount of stories in the gaming world wondering why same sex romances were absent in ME 2 and at least M/M in ME1, I don't think Bioware will really need to worry about too many lost sales aside from parents that might hear it on the news causing them to not buy the game for their child (which they shouldn't be playing anyways) as it seems the gaming community seems to be fairly unanimous in the addition (or at least won't mind) of same sex romances. 

/run-on sentence

Modifié par mjboldy, 06 mai 2010 - 03:50 .

[Tirigon]

Syledir wrote...

mjboldy wrote...

Dan the Man with a Plan wrote...

I don't think that Bioware wants to exclude gays and lesbians, but maybe their trying to avoid some of the heat the nuts at Fox News have been sending their way. I think Bioware should include the same sex love interests like they have in past games, I wouldn't use that because that isn't the way I swing. But i think people should have the freedom of who they can love even in a videogame.

I think today's society is at least to the point where if FOX News or any other news source chastises Mass Effect for having same sex romances, there would be quite the major backlash.

The last time Fox News tried to show BioWare on a bad light, their fans stood behind them. The one woman, I forgot her name, who was called an expert stood under enormous pressure afterwards. BioWares fans gave her book the the worst ratings, reviews, whatever possible. Not very long after that the woman apologized and said there was more sexuall content in an episode of lost than in the entire game (Mass Effect). There were no major backlashes for Dragon Age Origins whatsoever. Still that was first game from BioWare that actually showed a romance scene between to males. As long as there are no exclusively gay romance options, nothing will happen.

Besides of Syledir´s point, the possible bad press is exactly why I think you should be able to choose whether NPCs are ******, hetero or bi. That would prevent bad press.

On another thought, is bad press REALLY that bad?
I see it more as a sort of free advertisement - I remember one of my favourite bands, for example, who had a few of their CDs forbidden in Germany, and that gave them a huge popularity boost because everything they do now is controversial and special just because it´s by them.