7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

mjboldy wrote...

as it seems the gaming community seems to be fairly unanimous in the addition (or at least won't mind) of same sex romances. 

Unfortunately there are a lot of trolls here trying hard to prove this wrong.....

[Wittand25]

Tirigon wrote...
Besides of Syledir´s point, the possible bad press is exactly why I think you should be able to choose whether NPCs are ******, hetero or bi. That would prevent bad press.

It would cause bad press especially with the supporters of this contnet. Do you really think anyone would take iit in a positive light ?
Fans of games with intresting npcs would be offended because now you can change the behavior of npc through the options menu,
Opposers of s/s contnet will claim that Bioware gave in to the gays,
Supporters of s/s contnet will say that Bioware still chickend out and is only willing to give the GLBT audience a second class treatment.
I cannot see how anyone would see such an toggle as something positive.

And to emphasize again :DA did not get bad press, neither did Fable, the Sims or any other game with s/s content.
The only slightly bad remark I remember is from a review of JE stating that it is a shame that the m/m romace faded to black faster than the m/f ones.

[FinalBeyond]

I seem to have come into this debate fairly late (I've read about the first 95 pages - yes, I don't have much to do - but I'm not sure I'll be able to get through the rest), so I'm not sure how much of what I'll say has already been dealt with. From what I've seen of the first third of the thread, it seems a lot of issues pop up time and again anyway.

Anyhow, I'm a bisexual male who leans more towards guys. It seems somewhat depressing that in a sci-fi world where any kind of inter-species romance is acceptable and out in the open, my sexuality is conspicuously absent. (So is my long hair, but that's less significant.) It's especially disappointing when I'm a fan of a series - Doctor Who - that manages to depict a universe where there are no such boundaries, and where the human race has become far more open to different sexualities as they met alien races and adapted accordingly, expanding their horizons. It's so much more positive a view of the future.
This also causes me to look on the "PG-13 movie" excuse as somewhat shallow. Russell T. Davies and other writers have managed to depict homosexual, bisexual, straight relationships and beyond on prime-time TV in England for family audiences of any age. Judging by the excellent quality of storytelling in the Mass Effect games, I have no doubt whatsoever that the Bioware writers are just as capable of doing the same thing. (I would question that Mass Effect 2 is PG-13 anyway, given the extremely dark contents of, say, Samara's loyalty mission, but that's not the point. There really is no reason to hide sexualities because of these assumed age barriers.)

As to how things would be implemented, I'd lean more towards choosing an option at the beginning of the game. Seems simple enough to say 'right, that's my name, that's my gender, that's my sexuality, that's my origin, that's my backstory, that's my character class'. All these choices seem to fit nicely together. So then you can just get the romance options you want to see, male or female.
I'd like to see free choice with every character. Even if it's a retcon (which I'm not too sure it is, given that sexuality is rarely pinned down completely), in a game with a ton of DLC and the ability to play through multiple ways without even meeting every member of the squad, it's not a huge deal. I've done playthroughs where the romances I've had the choices for have seemed appropriate, like a more renegadish male Shepard who ended up with Jack. Or a paragon female who went with Liara and stayed the course. Other times, I've ended up disappointed, like a male Shepard who would have matched well with Thane, but t'was not to be. I feel the romances should be more based on personality than what parts you have in common.
I must say I've found it slightly disappointing that Bioware have had to give excuses like the PG-13 one that really don't hold up to reality. I'd prefer a straight answer as to why they're not included, no pun intended. The game is amazing even without romances, but they do add another dimension, and it'd be nice for everyone to be able to get the benefit of this.

Modifié par FinalBeyond, 06 mai 2010 - 09:05 .

[Tirigon]

Wittand25 wrote...

It would cause bad press especially with the supporters of this contnet. Do you really think anyone would take iit in a positive light ?

Yes.

Fans of games with intresting npcs would be offended because now you can change the behavior of npc through the options menu,

I am such a fan, and I think that it doesn´t make the NPCs less interesting. Actually more, because you can play with different settings and compare them, etc...

Opposers of s/s contnet will claim that Bioware gave in to the gays,

They suck

Supporters of s/s contnet will say that Bioware still chickend out and is only willing to give the GLBT audience a second class treatment.

That isn´t the case if you can choose "ONLY GAY" (and lesbian, of course) too.

[Syledir]

Tirigon wrote...

Syledir wrote...

mjboldy wrote...

Dan the Man with a Plan wrote...

I don't think that Bioware wants to exclude gays and lesbians, but maybe their trying to avoid some of the heat the nuts at Fox News have been sending their way. I think Bioware should include the same sex love interests like they have in past games, I wouldn't use that because that isn't the way I swing. But i think people should have the freedom of who they can love even in a videogame.

I think today's society is at least to the point where if FOX News or any other news source chastises Mass Effect for having same sex romances, there would be quite the major backlash.

The last time Fox News tried to show BioWare on a bad light, their fans stood behind them. The one woman, I forgot her name, who was called an expert stood under enormous pressure afterwards. BioWares fans gave her book the the worst ratings, reviews, whatever possible. Not very long after that the woman apologized and said there was more sexuall content in an episode of lost than in the entire game (Mass Effect). There were no major backlashes for Dragon Age Origins whatsoever. Still that was first game from BioWare that actually showed a romance scene between to males. As long as there are no exclusively gay romance options, nothing will happen.

Besides of Syledir´s point, the possible bad press is exactly why I think you should be able to choose whether NPCs are ******, hetero or bi. That would prevent bad press.

On another thought, is bad press REALLY that bad?
I see it more as a sort of free advertisement - I remember one of my favourite bands, for example, who had a few of their CDs forbidden in Germany, and that gave them a huge popularity boost because everything they do now is controversial and special just because it´s by them.

That wouldn't happen to be "Böhse Onkelz" by any chance?

[sw33ts]

Syledir wrote...
Just in theory. Let's say BioWare would actually consider making a same-sex-romance DLC. They ask how we would make that happen. We give them the coloured text version. BioWare asks for a few weeks to consider. A few weeks later they come back and say that the coloured text is not enough. We fear that visible romance text lines, even if the players has no intention to use them, would make our costumers uncomfortable and we are unable to grant your wishes.
Would you tell them to that they should reevaluate their feelings and leave? I think it is better, if there is a Plan B. You could return and offer the additional option of a "sexual preference" check in the character creator menue.

You see instead of insulting them (intentional or not) you show your good will. If it helps to make you feel better, and I say this without trying to insult you, think of them as children who still need to learn and you help them with that. Just keep it to yourself, because children or not, some peoples feelings get hurt very easily. I am not saying my way is the only way. But we have to come to a solution somewhere. I can agree with you that coloured text is enough and we don't need the "toggle". But what if BioWare demands for more than coloured text. Can you agree with me, that as a Plan B additional "sexuall preference options" make sense. Or do you have a better idea. Honestly.

But you see.  I'm not insulting them.  If this were something like race and people went around saying I WANT TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHO HITS ON ME.  Only whites can hit on me if I'm a white shepard.  Then people would also be angered by this.  I know I for one would be angered if someone was like I want a toggle on race as well.  Would you not be angry?  And again I would tell them to reevalutate their feelings and figure out what makes them so uncomfortable around people of another race.  Are you saying there's something taboo with people of other races? 

We all have preferences.  I for one prefer guys to be short and girls to be taller than me but will I become angry or annoyed if someone different hits on me?  No.

I'm sorry, but I honestly believe if you can't read that pink text as you read blue and red then I think you just want to nitpick the game to oblivion.

[Syledir]

Tirigon wrote...

mjboldy wrote...

as it seems the gaming community seems to be fairly unanimous in the addition (or at least won't mind) of same sex romances. 

Unfortunately there are a lot of trolls here trying hard to prove this wrong.....

Until now, they haven't proven anything. I don't believe there is a way to prove what is going to happen in the future. The best thing you can do is going to make an assumption based on facts of the past. And I assume, based on the lack of bad press against Jade Empire and Dragon Age Origins, that backlash from the anti gay community would be minimal, should BioWare decide to create same sex romance content.

[Wittand25]

Tirigon wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

It would cause bad press especially with the supporters of this contnet. Do you really think anyone would take iit in a positive light ?

Yes.

Fans of games with intresting npcs would be offended because now you can change the behavior of npc through the options menu,

I am such a fan, and I think that it doesn´t make the NPCs less interesting. Actually more, because you can play with different settings and compare them, etc...

In that instance you are part of an minority. not to mention that having all of the LI bisexual would increase the workload imensly and lead to either  less quality or less quantity (ok ME2 had to many LI anyway but still )

Opposers of s/s contnet will claim that Bioware gave in to the gays,

They suck

Qft and nothing to add

Supporters of s/s contnet will say that Bioware still chickend out and is only willing to give the GLBT audience a second class treatment.

That isn´t the case if you can choose "ONLY GAY" (and lesbian, of course) too.

I know quite many people who would go out of their way to be offended just because they would have to turn on the romances in the menu if the standart setting is straight .
I still believe that such a toggle in the menu is both unnecessary and a waste of resources. For ME2 an optional DLC and for ME3 simply easy to spot romance starters perform the same task with only a fraction of the work needed.

[Tirigon]

Syledir wrote...

That wouldn't happen to be "Böhse Onkelz" by any chance?

I thought about Eisregen, but you´re right, it´s true for Böhse Onkelz too, I think. Rammstein, too.

I think it´s true for a lot of bands.

[Syledir]

Wittand25 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

It would cause bad press especially with the supporters of this contnet. Do you really think anyone would take iit in a positive light ?

Yes.

Fans of games with intresting npcs would be offended because now you can change the behavior of npc through the options menu,

I am such a fan, and I think that it doesn´t make the NPCs less interesting. Actually more, because you can play with different settings and compare them, etc...

In that instance you are part of an minority. not to mention that having all of the LI bisexual would increase the workload imensly and lead to either  less quality or less quantity (ok ME2 had to many LI anyway but still )

Opposers of s/s contnet will claim that Bioware gave in to the gays,

They suck

Qft and nothing to add

Supporters of s/s contnet will say that Bioware still chickend out and is only willing to give the GLBT audience a second class treatment.

That isn´t the case if you can choose "ONLY GAY" (and lesbian, of course) too.

I know quite many people who would go out of their way to be offended just because they would have to turn on the romances in the menu if the standart setting is straight .
I still believe that such a toggle in the menu is both unnecessary and a waste of resources. For ME2 an optional DLC and for ME3 simply easy to spot romance starters perform the same task with only a fraction of the work needed.

It wouldn't be an increase of work. Look at youtube. There are enough people who uploaded vids with for example Male Shepard and Kaidan romance content. Look at the first page of this thread. Every NPC of the first and second game could have a same sex romance. I doubt that it took them very long to change the game settings like that. So BioWare could do it, too.

Now people get offended if the standard setting is straight? Get people offended because the standard seeting is white skin colour instead of black skin colour too? If that is such a huge issue let BioWare switch the standard setting to bisexual. But, honestly, we want same sex romance in Mass Effect. And if the standard setting or the default setting is heterosexuall, we can certainly live with that. Can't we?

[Tirigon]

Syledir wrote...

Now people get offended if the standard setting is straight? Get people offended because the standard seeting is white skin colour instead of black skin colour too? If that is such a huge issue let BioWare switch the standard setting to bisexual. But, honestly, we want same sex romance in Mass Effect. And if the standard setting or the default setting is heterosexuall, we can certainly live with that. Can't we?

It almost seems some can´t.

I don´t understand what´s so bad about it, but well.....

[Syledir]

sw33ts wrote...

Syledir wrote...
Just in theory. Let's say BioWare would actually consider making a same-sex-romance DLC. They ask how we would make that happen. We give them the coloured text version. BioWare asks for a few weeks to consider. A few weeks later they come back and say that the coloured text is not enough. We fear that visible romance text lines, even if the players has no intention to use them, would make our costumers uncomfortable and we are unable to grant your wishes.
Would you tell them to that they should reevaluate their feelings and leave? I think it is better, if there is a Plan B. You could return and offer the additional option of a "sexual preference" check in the character creator menue.

You see instead of insulting them (intentional or not) you show your good will. If it helps to make you feel better, and I say this without trying to insult you, think of them as children who still need to learn and you help them with that. Just keep it to yourself, because children or not, some peoples feelings get hurt very easily. I am not saying my way is the only way. But we have to come to a solution somewhere. I can agree with you that coloured text is enough and we don't need the "toggle". But what if BioWare demands for more than coloured text. Can you agree with me, that as a Plan B additional "sexuall preference options" make sense. Or do you have a better idea. Honestly.

But you see.  I'm not insulting them.  If this were something like race and people went around saying I WANT TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHO HITS ON ME.  Only whites can hit on me if I'm a white shepard.  Then people would also be angered by this.  I know I for one would be angered if someone was like I want a toggle on race as well.  Would you not be angry?  And again I would tell them to reevalutate their feelings and figure out what makes them so uncomfortable around people of another race.  Are you saying there's something taboo with people of other races? 

We all have preferences.  I for one prefer guys to be short and girls to be taller than me but will I become angry or annoyed if someone different hits on me?  No.

I'm sorry, but I honestly believe if you can't read that pink text as you read blue and red then I think you just want to nitpick the game to oblivion.

No, I wouldn't be angry. I can tell you why. First of all, you like to compare this problem with racism, yes? Not a bad example. Let me ask you how long it took until racism was not an issue anymore in, let's say, the USA? It's still not over. There is still too much racism. But that doesn't mean it didn't get better. One step after another we come closer to "I have a dream." It's the same with homosexuality. We can't demand a final solution with no compromises all of a sudden. I believed that we were past such prejudices, but alas we are not. This is not the time for a gay pride parade. This is a chance to show our good will. If BioWare deems the "toggle" to be necessary than that will be a lot better than the alternative: NOTHING. That would make me angry. The fact that we got a chance but we couldn't see past our pride and ****ed up.

No, I don't want to nitpick the game to oblivion. I would be quite content with the coloured text alone. But sometimes compromises have to be made. One can always continue the FIGHT FOR LOVE in future games from BioWare and make it more equal the next time. Do I want equality now? YES! Can I have it? Maybe.

I don't have a problem with people who prefer black people over white people aslong as it doesn't interfere your work and dignity. If someone says I prefer black women and I don't have a single white friend. No problem. Your choice, your preference. If someone says I can't accept my white co-worker because of his skin colour and in my spare time I humilate white people whenever I can. That is a problem. And that I cannot accept.

[Wittand25]

Syledir wrote...
It wouldn't be an increase of work. Look at youtube. There are enough people who uploaded vids with for example Male Shepard and Kaidan romance content. Look at the first page of this thread. Every NPC of the first and second game could have a same sex romance. I doubt that it took them very long to change the game settings like that. So BioWare could do it, too.

Now people get offended if the standard setting is straight? Get people offended because the standard seeting is white skin colour instead of black skin colour too? If that is such a huge issue let BioWare switch the standard setting to bisexual. But, honestly, we want same sex romance in Mass Effect. And if the standard setting or the default setting is heterosexuall, we can certainly live with that. Can't we?

The toggle would be unnecessary extra work. No other computer game that contains s/s romances has such a feature. They all have the gay romances implented just like the straight romances, which shows that it is not needed.
And I have seen the romance scenes on youtube the only one working right now is Jacob, Thane is to small and Shepard licks his nose, and Garrus is to tall and causes clipping issues.

[jselene]

Oh my, I missed a lot.
Okay, where did this "toggle or nothing" myth come from?  Bioware never implied it, they never spoke of it... it's highly unlikely that their willingness to make same sex romances in ME3 is hinged upon this thread's attitude toward a toggle.  Some people seem to take the reality of this dichotomy very seriously... but it's not.  (And the toggle, fyi,--the one proposed by Sion and discussed earlier on this thread--would NOT stop people of the same sex from hitting on Shep; it only stops Shep from saying "yes.")
Besides, it's not our board's job to compromise for them.  They aren't having a back and forth, not engaging in this debate.  And it strikes me as silly to water down our own request for no reason, since A) the final decision of m/m and f/f inclusion will be made with no regard to the "willingness to compromise" of this thread, and no skilled haggler EVER begins with a "reasonable" price--they shoot for the best deal they can get, and whittle it down during the negotiation process. 
Personally, I'm opposed to the toggle because of what it implies.  There was no toggle in ME1 or ME2; if there is one in ME3, it will just look like a "shield" for straight MSheps against "catching the gay".  Why?: because FemSheps could be whatever they want from the first game, and no toggle was added.  Lesbian FemSheps could've had their sexuality violated by out-of-the-blue flirting in ME2, and no toggle was added.  Straight FemSheps could accidentally hit on their secretary due to poorly labeled dialogue, and no toggle was added.  Heck, non-human-looking aliensex was there, and no toggle was added.  But suddenly MShep has the chance to get with a guy... and they make a toggle.  Yeah, no. 
Furthermore, adding a toggle decreases the liklihood that they'll add green text, since that particular problem (ie. protecting homophobes) is solved!    Case closed!  ...but what about people who want to avoid undesired relations with the desired sex?    Something tells me Bioware doesn't care as much...

[Ryzaki]

But if the toggle doesn't stop people of the same sex hitting on Shepard its worthless. You might as well have to colored text.

Yet again with the you don't want to compromise nonsense. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 mai 2010 - 09:58 .

[Siansonea]

jselene wrote...

Oh my, I missed a lot.
Okay, where did this "toggle or nothing" myth come from?  Bioware never implied it, they never spoke of it... it's highly unlikely that their willingness to make same sex romances in ME3 is hinged upon this thread's attitude toward a toggle.  Some people seem to take the reality of this dichotomy very seriously... but it's not.  (And the toggle, fyi,--the one proposed by Sion and discussed earlier on this thread--would NOT stop people of the same sex from hitting on Shep; it only stops Shep from saying "yes.")
Besides, it's not our board's job to compromise for them.  They aren't having a back and forth, not engaging in this debate.  And it strikes me as silly to water down our own request for no reason, since A) the final decision of m/m and f/f inclusion will be made with no regard to the "willingness to compromise" of this thread, and no skilled haggler EVER begins with a "reasonable" price--they shoot for the best deal they can get, and whittle it down during the negotiation process. 
Personally, I'm opposed to the toggle because of what it implies.  There was no toggle in ME1 or ME2; if there is one in ME3, it will just look like a "shield" for straight MSheps against "catching the gay".  Why?: because FemSheps could be whatever they want from the first game, and no toggle was added.  Lesbian FemSheps could've had their sexuality violated by out-of-the-blue flirting in ME2, and no toggle was added.  Straight FemSheps could accidentally hit on their secretary due to poorly labeled dialogue, and no toggle was added.  Heck, non-human-looking aliensex was there, and no toggle was added.  But suddenly MShep has the chance to get with a guy... and they make a toggle.  Yeah, no. 
Furthermore, adding a toggle decreases the liklihood that they'll add green text, since that particular problem (ie. protecting homophobes) is solved!    Case closed!  ...but what about people who want to avoid undesired relations with the desired sex?    Something tells me Bioware doesn't care as much...

Believe me, I wish I had never suggested it at this point. Especially since people don't seem to understand exactly what it was I was trying to suggest. People just hear 'compromise' and they immediately put their dukes up and come out swinging. It doesn't matter if they completely misunderstand the premise of the argument, a fight's a fight, right?

Have a party youngun's, I'm off to clean my dentures and knit a quilt.

[jselene]

Ryzaki wrote...

But if the toggle doesn't stop people of the same sex hitting on Shepard its worthless. You might as well have to colored text.

I agree.

Edit: I'm willing to compromise--but I don't want that particular compromise.  I'm fine with all of the others: making colored text, moving flirt dialogue to a different part of the wheel, limiting same-sex LIs to one per gender, and including "are you sure you want this?" dialogue, making it very, very easy to call said LI's romance off, requiring all same-sex content to be player-initiated with very clear dialogue... but not the toggle.  While I know that straight romances will be disable-able as well, it just reeks of unfortunate implications to me.

Modifié par jselene, 06 mai 2010 - 10:07 .

[Ryzaki]

jselene wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But if the toggle doesn't stop people of the same sex hitting on Shepard its worthless. You might as well have to colored text.

I agree.

Edit: I'm willing to compromise--but I don't want that particular compromise.  I'm fine with all of the others: making colored text, moving flirt dialogue to a different part of the wheel, limiting same-sex LIs to one per gender, and including "are you sure you want this?" dialogue, making it very, very easy to call said LI's romance off, requiring all same-sex content to be player-initiated with very clear dialogue... but not the toggle.  While I know that straight romances will be disable-able as well, it just reeks of unfortunate implications to me.

Truth. Just because someone isn't for every single compromise option does not mean someone doesn't want to compromise. Certain compromises are better than others.

Its like certain "adults" don't realize that. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 mai 2010 - 10:16 .

[LiquidGrape]

...when did things get so hostile in here?

[Cootie]

LiquidGrape wrote...

...when did things get so hostile in here?

What happened to patience and understanding, eh?
I leave you guys for two weeks... tsk, tsk, tsk.

Alright, I'mma be ttly srz for a few seconds.

I am willing to put down my two cents and claim that both sides of the toggle-argument have their points.
Would it solve the issue of homosexual content being cut from the game?
Yes.

Is it a very positive-looking compromise that doesn't look like a desperate attempt to please the audiences?
No.

It's less of an "Okay, we're sorry we cut the delicious content from the game. Here, I hope you can forgive us," and more of an "Oh, well, we had to please them gayz to quit their whining. Bear with us, okay?"
In my opinion, that is.

A specific toggle? No.
Coloured text, neat dialogue and a Shepard that doesn't sound like she's hitting on the male protagonist every time she starts a conversation?
Yes, please!

[Siansonea]

LiquidGrape wrote...

...when did things get so hostile in here?

I'm not trying to be hostile, but I'm getting really tired of my suggestion being characterized the way it has been. Everyone seems to think the 'toggle' means something completely different from everyone else. Like it's a gay light switch, or it turns everybody into randy turians or something. I can't even keep track of how many people have gotten it wrong at this point. <_<

I just get tired of people acting like I'm sort of collaborator to social injustice because I don't hate on people who are uncomfortable with gay content. Do I think they should get over it? Sure. Do I think spanking them on the nose with a newspaper is the way to help them along? Not so much. I try to have compassion for everybody, even the ones who've got a lot of 'potential for growth'.

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...
Its like certain "adults" don't realize that. <_<

I prefer the term "juvenescentally challenged".

[LiquidGrape]

I wasn't referring to any one person; as you said there seems to be a prevalent sense of confusion about this whole ordeal.
The way I understood your suggestion was that the world surrounding Shepard does not alter itself to fit the "ideal" for each individual player; but it predetermines the available responses for your character.
Is that about it?

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 06 mai 2010 - 11:09 .

[Siansonea]

LiquidGrape wrote...

I wasn't referring to any one person; as you said there seems to be a prevalent sense of confusion about this whole ordeal.
The way I understood your suggestion was that the world surrounding Shepard does not alter itself to fit the "ideal" for each individual player; but it predetermines the responses your character is able to express.
Is that about it?

Yep. Seems pretty simple, and yet people act like I'm advocating the sexual equivalent of Jim Crow laws. SO over it.

[Cootie]

Siansonea II wrote...

I'm not trying to be hostile, but I'm getting really tired of my suggestion being characterized the way it has been. Everyone seems to think the 'toggle' means something completely different from everyone else. Like it's a gay light switch, or it turns everybody into randy turians or something. I can't even keep track of how many people have gotten it wrong at this point. <_<

I just get tired of people acting like I'm sort of collaborator to social injustice because I don't hate on people who are uncomfortable with gay content. Do I think they should get over it? Sure. Do I think spanking them on the nose with a newspaper is the way to help them along? Not so much. I try to have compassion for everybody, even the ones who've got a lot of 'potential for growth'.

I have to admit that I did not read your original post describing the idea, so I could be wrong. I just based my opinion on the posts above, basically. I just kind of absorbed as much as I could and jumped to conclusions.
So, yeah, I would like to apologise if I gave off the impression that you were a 'collaborator to social injustice'. ^^

But in all honesty, adding a kind of option to turn off sexual content or isolate it somehow (which is what I'm assuming you were suggesting) is a very off-putting option, I think, if we'd want the anti-homosexual community to 'get over it', so to speak.
The best option, in my opinion, is to just include some homosexual content just like everything else - without putting focus on it being weird or out of the ordinary. If it was simply there, treated normally, I doubt there'd be much of a ruckus.