7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Jimmy Fury]

gah double post. sorry. hit quote instead of edit.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 26 février 2010 - 06:57 .

[S Seraff]

thanks for all the hard work OP! an additional suggestion (unless it was there and I missed it): just have a "gay on/off" option you toggle as part of your game preferences at character creation. if you don't want those options, they don't appear in the game.

[Darth Drago]

Unbelievable, on my 360 in the “Inside Xbox” crap section (for me its always crap) they actually have something from IGN Stategize on how to get a male Shepard into a relationship. No mention for a female Shepard or even a same sex one which isn’t surprising the probable target audience for this game.

Back on topic….

-Like I mentioned about 20 page back having the color coding for romance dialog just would not seem right. It would be like adding the dialog choices that got you paragon/renegade points in blue and red. The best option is to just have better dialog options with better writers I might add. In ME1 if you found yourself in a relationship that you didn’t want to get into there was the “lets be friends” like reply. That’s completely missing in ME2. Have a real meaningful dialog that is labeled clearly as a possible romantic interest and without the clever rewording for the same dialog choices I have seen. Something as simple as “I think your hot” I doubt would confuse anyone as to where choosing that dialog option would lead.

[sw33ts]

Darth Drago wrote...


Unbelievable, on my 360 in the “Inside Xbox” crap section (for me its always crap) they actually have something from IGN Stategize on how to get a male Shepard into a relationship. No mention for a female Shepard or even a same sex one which isn’t surprising the probable target audience for this game.

Back on topic….

-Like I mentioned about 20 page back having the color coding for romance dialog just would not seem right. It would be like adding the dialog choices that got you paragon/renegade points in blue and red. The best option is to just have better dialog options with better writers I might add. In ME1 if you found yourself in a relationship that you didn’t want to get into there was the “lets be friends” like reply. That’s completely missing in ME2. Have a real meaningful dialog that is labeled clearly as a possible romantic interest and without the clever rewording for the same dialog choices I have seen. Something as simple as “I think your hot” I doubt would confuse anyone as to where choosing that dialog option would lead.

Lol, well sometimes if I notice it's all white I just press spacebar until the conversation ends.  If I see the pink or w/e I would be like...oh lemme stop pressing spacebar.

[Wittand25]

Darth Drago wrote...


Unbelievable, on my 360 in the “Inside Xbox” crap section (for me its always crap) they actually have something from IGN Stategize on how to get a male Shepard into a relationship. No mention for a female Shepard or even a same sex one which isn’t surprising the probable target audience for this game.

Back on topic….

-Like I mentioned about 20 page back having the color coding for romance dialog just would not seem right. It would be like adding the dialog choices that got you paragon/renegade points in blue and red. The best option is to just have better dialog options with better writers I might add. In ME1 if you found yourself in a relationship that you didn’t want to get into there was the “lets be friends” like reply. That’s completely missing in ME2. Have a real meaningful dialog that is labeled clearly as a possible romantic interest and without the clever rewording for the same dialog choices I have seen. Something as simple as “I think your hot” I doubt would confuse anyone as to where choosing that dialog option would lead.

The dialog in ME1 was not always that clear, I once accidently started the romance with Ashley and "virmired" her just to be on the safe site,  that the renegade answer in the consort quest would lead to sex was also not very obvious. Making dialogoptions more clear by having them colorcoded or adding a little emote would generaly be a good idea not only for romance options.

Modifié par Wittand25, 26 février 2010 - 07:17 .

[danman2424]

TommyServo wrote...

uzivatel wrote...
Its only there because someone needs to feed the fish. You do have point there, but I am not sure we can really count that one ... the game sure does not.

I'm not talking about Kelly, or ME2 specifically, although evidence in there certainly supports me.  I'm referring to the character of Shepard, in both games.  She can assert her sexuality in the first game with Liara, and can continue it into ME2 and beyond.  Through her dialog and choices, she is unambiguously gay.  That she can express sexual or romantic interest in Kelly, Samara and Morinth, while MShep can never express interest in a member of the same sex just further supports the argument.

It's not an equality thing. I'm pretty sure Bioware didn't put a lesbian option in the game for the benefit of the few gay women that might happen to play the game. The main audience for a game like this is male and they obviously put some options in that would allow a male gamer who chooses to play as a female either from the start or as a second play through (and there are more than you'd think) to be able to better enjoy that experience. Most men would not want to pursue a relationship with Kaidan.

[danman2424]

Darth Drago wrote...


Unbelievable, on my 360 in the “Inside Xbox” crap section (for me its always crap) they actually have something from IGN Stategize on how to get a male Shepard into a relationship. No mention for a female Shepard or even a same sex one which isn’t surprising the probable target audience for this game. 

*SIGH* Some people will find a way to get upset or offended over anything. I hate this ridiculous trend of political correctness.

Modifié par danman2424, 26 février 2010 - 07:25 .

[sw33ts]

danman2424 wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

uzivatel wrote...
Its only there because someone needs to feed the fish. You do have point there, but I am not sure we can really count that one ... the game sure does not.

I'm not talking about Kelly, or ME2 specifically, although evidence in there certainly supports me.  I'm referring to the character of Shepard, in both games.  She can assert her sexuality in the first game with Liara, and can continue it into ME2 and beyond.  Through her dialog and choices, she is unambiguously gay.  That she can express sexual or romantic interest in Kelly, Samara and Morinth, while MShep can never express interest in a member of the same sex just further supports the argument.

It's not an equality thing. I'm pretty sure Bioware didn't put a lesbian option in the game for the benefit of the few gay women that might happen to play the game. The main audience for a game like this is male and they obviously put some options in that would allow a male gamer who chooses to play as a female either from the start or as a second play through (and there are more than you'd think) to be able to better enjoy that experience. Most men would not want to pursue a relationship with Kaidan.

Well, then those men don't HAVE to persue said relationship.  Who was the main audience for DO:A?  Surely the same bunch.  At least when you compare ME1 to Dragon Age it's generally the same bunch.  Males.

[danman2424]

sw33ts wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

uzivatel wrote...
Its only there because someone needs to feed the fish. You do have point there, but I am not sure we can really count that one ... the game sure does not.

I'm not talking about Kelly, or ME2 specifically, although evidence in there certainly supports me.  I'm referring to the character of Shepard, in both games.  She can assert her sexuality in the first game with Liara, and can continue it into ME2 and beyond.  Through her dialog and choices, she is unambiguously gay.  That she can express sexual or romantic interest in Kelly, Samara and Morinth, while MShep can never express interest in a member of the same sex just further supports the argument.

It's not an equality thing. I'm pretty sure Bioware didn't put a lesbian option in the game for the benefit of the few gay women that might happen to play the game. The main audience for a game like this is male and they obviously put some options in that would allow a male gamer who chooses to play as a female either from the start or as a second play through (and there are more than you'd think) to be able to better enjoy that experience. Most men would not want to pursue a relationship with Kaidan.

Well, then those men don't HAVE to persue said relationship.  Who was the main audience for DO:A?  Surely the same bunch.  At least when you compare ME1 to Dragon Age it's generally the same bunch.  Males.

Huh? Don't have to pursue the relationship?

The person I quoted was upset that Bioware would put in an option to appease gay women but not one to appease gay men. My answer was that the option was not there to appease gay women in the first place.

[Jimmy Fury]

danman2424 wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...
Unbelievable, on my 360 in the “Inside Xbox” crap section (for me its always crap) they actually have something from IGN Stategize on how to get a male Shepard into a relationship. No mention for a female Shepard or even a same sex one which isn’t surprising the probable target audience for this game. 

*SIGH* Some people will find a way to get upset or offended over anything. I hate this ridiculous trend of political correctness.

danman. I'm honestly not sure if you're trolling or if you just have a habit of reading into things to a point where you get ideas that have nothing to do with what other people say. I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just trolling.
Nothing in that quote from Drago mentions political correctness or even that he took offense to what he's talking about. He just said that the "inside xbox" thing (which is indeed 99% crap) has a strategy for male shepard's romance and not female shepard.
So I'm curious as to how you got offense or PCness out of it...?

-edit- Nor did Tommyservo's statement say anything about how the f.Shep options were included to "appease gay females" so... now i'm pretty sure you're just trying to pick fights.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 26 février 2010 - 07:42 .

[sw33ts]

danman2424 wrote...
Huh? Don't have to pursue the relationship?

The person I quoted was upset that Bioware would put in an option to appease gay women but not one to appease gay men. My answer was that the option was not there to appease gay women in the first place.

Prove this point to me.  Find where it was said by someone on the team cause frankly we gave you facts and you give us your assuptions.

Modifié par sw33ts, 26 février 2010 - 07:48 .

[danman2424]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...
Unbelievable, on my 360 in the “Inside Xbox” crap section (for me its always crap) they actually have something from IGN Stategize on how to get a male Shepard into a relationship. No mention for a female Shepard or even a same sex one which isn’t surprising the probable target audience for this game. 

*SIGH* Some people will find a way to get upset or offended over anything. I hate this ridiculous trend of political correctness.

danman. I'm honestly not sure if you're trolling or if you just have a habit of reading into things to a point where you get ideas that have nothing to do with what other people say. I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just trolling.
Nothing in that quote from Drago mentions political correctness or even that he took offense to what he's talking about. He just said that the "inside xbox" thing (which is indeed 99% crap) has a strategy for male shepard's romance and not female shepard.
So I'm curious as to how you got offense or PCness out of it...?

-edit- Nor did Tommyservo's statement say anything about how the f.Shep options were included to "appease gay females" so... now i'm pretty sure you're just trying to pick fights.

Uh read the first word in his post. It's pretty obvious the poster was taking offense to the use of the male Shepard in the video.

[danman2424]

sw33ts wrote...

danman2424 wrote...
Huh? Don't have to pursue the relationship?

The person I quoted was upset that Bioware would put in an option to appease gay women but not one to appease gay men. My answer was that the option was not there to appease gay women in the first place.

Prove this point to me.  Find where it was said by someone on the team cause frankly we gave you facts and you give us your assuptions.

I see, so you gave me facts? I take it YOU have a quote from Bioware stating that the lesbian sex in Mass Effect was their little gift to gay women out there?

Be real.

[Jimmy Fury]

Right, thank you for clarifying danman. Clearly we have two different comprehensions of what the word "unbelievable" means so I won't get into that with you.



Again though, absolutely nothing in Tommy's statement said that the lesbian options were included to appease lesbians. You are building an argument based on a non-existent quote. Nobody can provide you with a quote proving something that never existed and nobody ever claimed existed. You are asking for unicorns.

[Yeled]

I actually agree with danman that the f/f options were not likely included to appeal to lesbian gamers. The argument that lesbians got theirs so why can't gay males have an equal option doesn't hold a lot of water with me. Its not a question of fairness, really.



The better argument is that there are likely many, many gay and straight gamers who play Bioware games who would appreciate this content and Bioware would make a lot of their loyal fans happy by including it. I would contend this group is a significant enough number that Bioware should pay attention to it (whether its 5% or 15%, that's a lot of people!), and vastly outnumbers the group that would actually not play the game because its included. There may be a lot of people (unfortunately) who would go, "yuck, gay content," but 99 percent of these would simply ignore it after that initial reaction without worrying further.



I guess what I'm saying is the cost-benefit analysis should show that the amount of goodwill generated among a large portion of its player base would vastly outweigh the negative reaction a few people would have.

[FKA_Servo]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Right, thank you for clarifying danman. Clearly we have two different comprehensions of what the word "unbelievable" means so I won't get into that with you.

Again though, absolutely nothing in Tommy's statement said that the lesbian options were included to appease lesbians. You are building an argument based on a non-existent quote. Nobody can provide you with a quote proving something that never existed and nobody ever claimed existed. You are asking for unicorns.

Troof.

I'm not talking about appeasing anyone.  I'm thinking about the depth of Shepard's characterization.  It's odd that FemShep has this option available to her that MShep does not. 

[danman2424]

Yeled wrote...

I actually agree with danman that the f/f options were not likely included to appeal to lesbian gamers. The argument that lesbians got theirs so why can't gay males have an equal option doesn't hold a lot of water with me. Its not a question of fairness, really.

The better argument is that there are likely many, many gay and straight gamers who play Bioware games who would appreciate this content and Bioware would make a lot of their loyal fans happy by including it. I would contend this group is a significant enough number that Bioware should pay attention to it (whether its 5% or 15%, that's a lot of people!), and vastly outnumbers the group that would actually not play the game because its included. There may be a lot of people (unfortunately) who would go, "yuck, gay content," but 99 percent of these would simply ignore it after that initial reaction without worrying further.

I guess what I'm saying is the cost-benefit analysis should show that the amount of goodwill generated among a large portion of its player base would vastly outweigh the negative reaction a few people would have.

I don't think the issue is about people getting upset, it would be about people finding the game and character too comical to take seriously.

Once again, I know some don't want to hear that, but the fact of the matter is that the image of male Shepard pressed up against another man and kissing is going to be seen as comical by the vast majority of non-gay people out there.

[danman2424]

TommyServo wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Right, thank you for clarifying danman. Clearly we have two different comprehensions of what the word "unbelievable" means so I won't get into that with you.

Again though, absolutely nothing in Tommy's statement said that the lesbian options were included to appease lesbians. You are building an argument based on a non-existent quote. Nobody can provide you with a quote proving something that never existed and nobody ever claimed existed. You are asking for unicorns.

Troof.

I'm not talking about appeasing anyone.  I'm thinking about the depth of Shepard's characterization.  It's odd that FemShep has this option available to her that MShep does not. 

Why do you find it odd, then?

[jlb524]

Yeled wrote...

I actually agree with danman that the f/f options were not likely included to appeal to lesbian gamers. The argument that lesbians got theirs so why can't gay males have an equal option doesn't hold a lot of water with me. Its not a question of fairness, really.

The better argument is that there are likely many, many gay and straight gamers who play Bioware games who would appreciate this content and Bioware would make a lot of their loyal fans happy by including it. I would contend this group is a significant enough number that Bioware should pay attention to it (whether its 5% or 15%, that's a lot of people!), and vastly outnumbers the group that would actually not play the game because its included. There may be a lot of people (unfortunately) who would go, "yuck, gay content," but 99 percent of these would simply ignore it after that initial reaction without worrying further.

Right, and this all comes back to the 'why appease a minority of gamers?' argument.  It comes back to my argument that a FemShep/Tali (or even FemShep/Jack or FemShep/Miranda) romance would have been more popular than the FemShep/Jacob one.  However, they choose to give females Shepards the less popular option of the two.  Why?  I don't know, but it shows that BW is willing to 'waste' time on crafting a romance that only a minority of gamers will play.  So I don't think someone can argue that they only do the f/f and not the m/m to appeal to a wider audience.  I'm not sure what there motivations are really.

[Yeled]

danman2424 wrote...

Once again, I know some don't want to hear that, but the fact of the matter is that the image of male Shepard pressed up against another man and kissing is going to be seen as comical by the vast majority of non-gay people out there.

I don't say this to troll, but I think this may be your issue more than anything else.  Yes, there are people who think its gross, and some immature teenagers who might think its funny.  So what?  Other characters have survived.  Do you really think their characterization of space hero Shep is so fragile it couldn't survive some teenagers playing through the m/m option because they think its funny?  I think Bioware is better at what they do than that.  Shepard would survive just fine, and all his action hero-ness would survive intact as well.  It wouldn't hurt their character, and it wouldn't hurt their sales.

[FKA_Servo]

danman2424 wrote...
Why do you find it odd, then?

I've already answered that - and it's covered in the FAQ as well, but whatever, here's the short version.

Male Shepard and Female Shepard are the same character.  Why is it that one iteration can identify as gay or bisexual when the other can't?  It's a silly restriction to put in place.

It's also odd because m/m content was developed and partially voiced, but not implemented, on two separate occasions.  There hasn't been any comment on why.  Since Bioware clearly doesn't have a problem with it, based on past IPs, we're curious.  The lack of it is odd.

Modifié par TommyServo, 26 février 2010 - 08:17 .

[Arik7]

danman2424 wrote...
Once again, I know some don't want to hear that, but the fact of the matter is that the image of male Shepard pressed up against another man and kissing is going to be seen as comical by the vast majority of non-gay people out there.

Your whole argument is based on a premise that gay people are comical.  Where did you get your ideas from?  Will and Grace?

I wonder if someone from BioWare here would agree that gay people are "comical" and thus should be excluded from the Mass Effect games.

Modifié par Arik7, 26 février 2010 - 08:17 .

[Erode_The_Soul]

danman2424 wrote...
I don't think the issue is about people getting upset, it would be about people finding the game and character too comical to take seriously.

Once again, I know some don't want to hear that, but the fact of the matter is that the image of male Shepard pressed up against another man and kissing is going to be seen as comical by the vast majority of non-gay people out there.

But there's nothing comical about it, so I don't understand why it's an issue. I mean, I'm a straight female and I didn't burst into giggle fits when Femshep and Liara had their sexytimes. I didn't find myself laughing when Manshep and Kaiden had their sexytimes (except at the "serving under me" line which, in all fairness, Kaiden laughed at as well). There's nothing any more comical about a homosexual Shepard than there is a heterosexual one. It's just that s/he prefers one sex over another. That's it. 

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 26 février 2010 - 08:18 .

[Yeled]

TommyServo wrote...

danman2424 wrote...
Why do you find it odd, then?

I've already answered that - and it's covered in the FAQ as well, but whatever, here's the short version.

Male Shepard and Female Shepard are the same character.  Why is it that one iteration can identify as gay or bisexual when the other can't?

My guess, judging by his position, is that he would contend its because f/f action is hawt, and m/m action is funny.  The f/f doesn't make the character funny.  He's worried about the characterization.

I don't agree with his position at all, but I think thats it in a nutshell.

[danman2424]

Yeled wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

Once again, I know some don't want to hear that, but the fact of the matter is that the image of male Shepard pressed up against another man and kissing is going to be seen as comical by the vast majority of non-gay people out there.

I don't say this to troll, but I think this may be your issue more than anything else.  Yes, there are people who think its gross, and some immature teenagers who might think its funny.  So what?  Other characters have survived.  Do you really think their characterization of space hero Shep is so fragile it couldn't survive some teenagers playing through the m/m option because they think its funny?  I think Bioware is better at what they do than that.  Shepard would survive just fine, and all his action hero-ness would survive intact as well.  It wouldn't hurt their character, and it wouldn't hurt their sales.

You are seriously naive if you think only teenagers (who probably make up almost half if not more than half of the game's audience by the way) would see the game in a humorous light. Heck, Brokeback Mountain jokes are still being made to this day on television and that movie was even centered around a gay romance.