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[Cootie]

khevan wrote...

Cootie wrote...

I don't really understand the whole "Don't make any of the current characters homosexual"-thing. I mean, the dialogue is still there.
The homosexuality is still in ME2, it's just that there's no sex. So, by that logic, overall sexual tension is nice, but if there was sex, it'd suddenly become unrealistic or ruin the immersion?

As far as I'm aware, there's no recorded dialogue for a homosexual relationship in ME2.  But in any case, the characters as they've developed so far in the two games have been established as heterosexual.  I don't want to see the characters change, for the sake of a same-sex relationship.  New characters, sure!  I have absolutely no problem with that, but the current character's shouldn't change who they are for the sake of this. (And I would say the same if it was a homosexual character people wanted to romance heterosexually.)  This is actually why I find the Garrus and Tali romances akward.  I like Tali's romance, I liked her in the first game, and so I did romance her in one playthru, and I guess it could be put down to simple character development, the relationship between old friends evolving into something more.  But for a character to express homosexual leanings when there was no indication of such in either the first or second game, just doesn't make sense to me.

*shrug*  In my mind, it just doesn't fit any of the characters, so it would break immersion for me if they changed the current squaddies to allow for a s/s relationship.

Although Tali IS bisexual, according to the dialogue. She did mention to my female Shepard that the most intimate situation for a Quarian would be to link their suits to someone else's. Then she states that she would be honored to do so with my Shepard.

The key word, of course is Intimate.

This was the case with every female character, basically. It's just that it suddenly stops and the character development, as you like to call it, falls off a cliff and dies, giving room for a static immersion-breaking silence and it leaves you wondering who decided it would be a great idea to leave the conversations so broken.
If anything, THAT doesn't make any sense.

[khevan]

Cootie wrote...

Although Tali IS bisexual, according to the dialogue. She did mention to my female Shepard that the most intimate situation for a Quarian would be to link their suits to someone else's. Then she states that she would be honored to do so with my Shepard.

The key word, of course is Intimate.

This was the case with every female character, basically. It's just that it suddenly stops and the character development, as you like to call it, falls off a cliff and dies, giving room for a static immersion-breaking silence and it leaves you wondering who decided it would be a great idea to leave the conversations so broken.
If anything, THAT doesn't make any sense.

I never took that to mean that Tali was bisexual, actually.  If you remember, Shala-Raan(sp?) mentioned that she linked suits with Tali's mother when Tali was being born, but there's no indication that it was a sexual act.  It was intimate, but not in a sexual way.  Much more like two friends who are closer than sisters, a way of sharing everything, ultimate trust, etc.  But in that conversation, I never had the impression that Raan was having a lesbian affair with Tali's mom.

In the same vein, it always sounded to me like Tali was basically saying that she trusts Shepard that much, but she gets flustered, because it can suggest a desire for sexual intimacy, and she got embarrassed.  The fact that there's no follow up with a female Shepard always made it sound to me like Tali basically stuck her foot in her mouth, and got embarrassed, not that she was flirting.

Now, that being said, I can see how someone else can see that particular conversation differently, but that doesn't mean that that's what Bioware intended.  Maybe they did, but didn't move forward with the idea.  In either case, the fact remains that the characters I talked about earlier have not been available as LI's for s/s relationships, and to me, that has become part of their character.   It'd just bug me if suddenly they were available for s/s relationships.  I'd much rather see new characters available for that, if Bioware implements them in ME3.

I don't want to sound argumentative, here, so I won't pursue this further.  I just want to point out something, in case anyone is bothered by anything I've said.  I have absolutely no problem with s/s relationships in video games, and if any of the LI's from either Mass Effect game had been bisexual or homosexual from the beginning of the series, I would not now be asking for any of them to be heterosexual only.  I never romanced Zevran in DA:O, but I wouldn't want Bioware to change his character if they make a DA:O2.  That's all I'm saying, that I'd prefer new characters who are bisexual or homosexual from the outset, not changed to be so because they're putting in s/s relationships into ME3.  (And as a heterosexual male, you'd think I'd want a F/F Miranda option...but I don't.  I just don't see it as being part of her character.)

And that's the last I have to say on the matter, because ultimately it's only my opinion, and I don't want anyone to think I'm stepping on toes or whatnot. 

*tips hat*  Adios.

[SorenTrigg]

You do have to realize, however, that a character opening up as a s/s romance does not change their base character at all. You will not even experience it yourself unless you decide you are going to make a character of that sex and romance them, so why does it matter so much?



And yes, while many of us would like new characters, what is the harm in having old ones open up?

[Collider]

SorenTrigg wrote...

You do have to realize, however, that a character opening up as a s/s romance does not change their base character at all. You will not even experience it yourself unless you decide you are going to make a character of that sex and romance them, so why does it matter so much?

And yes, while many of us would like new characters, what is the harm in having old ones open up?

The harm is that you ARE changing the character. Sexuality orientation is not a lightswitch. Sexuality is part of the character. I'm not going to care if Garrus for example was bisexual to start with, but don't go and retcon his character to be bisexual. The harm is harming the integrity of the characters.

Btw, I agree completely with Khevan in regards to Tali. She wasn't flirting, she was being awkward. They left that in the trust and friendship element. There is NO point to making a character bisexual yet making them open only to the opposite sex. Literally all of romances (aside from Jacob) have bisexual recorded lines (Shepard that is), yet the romances in ME2 still are straight.

[Erode_The_Soul]

Collider wrote...

The harm is that you ARE changing the character. Sexuality orientation is not a lightswitch. Sexuality is part of the character. I'm not going to care if Garrus for example was bisexual to start with, but don't go and retcon his character to be bisexual. The harm is harming the integrity of the characters.

Btw, I agree completely with Khevan in regards to Tali. She wasn't flirting, she was being awkward. They left that in the trust and friendship element. There is NO point to making a character bisexual yet making them open only to the opposite sex. Literally all of romances (aside from Jacob) have bisexual recorded lines (Shepard that is), yet the romances in ME2 still are straight.

That's not really the case, in my opinion. In your game, Tali would be the exact same as she is now, as you would not pursue that line of gameplay and (if it were implemented correctly) would have no indication that she was also interested in women. In someone elses game, she would be bisexual, but it would have no effect on you, or on her character if it were implemented correctly, IMO.

And I definitely thought that Tali line was a romantic trigger; so much so that I thought it was a glitch when I couldn't pursue it.

[Onyx Jaguar]

You do not have complete control over everything in the game. Characters are set in the way they are. Changing their sexual preference based on player preference is damaging while making characters that are homosexual is not. Heterosexuality/homosexuality/bisexuality/nosexuality is a major factor in a person, that is not something you can just switch on and off as you please.

[SorenTrigg]

I apologize, but I do not really understand how a character's sexuality is such a big part of their character and personality.

Let me give a hypothetical situation.

You are playing a female, and romance Garrus. As far as you know, he is only open to females.

Then it turns out Garrus is open to males too.

Has anything changed about your interaction with Garrus?



Also, using Garrus again, the only difference between a male and female Shepard is that female Shepard can respond in a suggestive way to Garrus after the 'reach and flexibility' line.

So the only thing that would change in that situation is *male Shepard*, not Garrus, if Garrus became open to males as well.



Collider, I would fully and completely agree with you if there was already dialogue in the game for male Shepard responding in a suggestive way to Garrus after that, and Garrus rebuffing him. But as it stands, it is not changing a character, it is just opening a path that is not there right now.

[Erode_The_Soul]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Changing their sexual preference based on player preference is damaging while making characters that are homosexual is not. 

Sorry, but I just don't agree. Personally, if we're talking as if homosexual romances were going to be added, I would much prefer a brand new character, rather than an adjustment of current ones. But I don't see how allowing someone to pursue a homosexual line of dialogue with an existing character diminishes that character in any way. The character's personality wouldn't change, just their interactions with the opposite sex Shepard, which you would have no indication of whatsoever if you didn't wish to pursue it.
I suppose if the very thought that someone somewhere has a homosexual Garrus changes the character for you, that would be unfortunate; but, for me, that's also very silly.

[Tirigon]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Heterosexuality/homosexuality/bisexuality/nosexuality is a major factor in a person,

Is it?

I think we disagree here. I really fail to understand how this can be important...

[AlanC9]

IIRC, David Gaider has said on several occasions that he would never retrofit a different sexual orientation onto an existing character, because something like that needs to be part of the character's makeup from the beginning. Makes me wonder what the writers thought about what happened to ME1

[SorenTrigg]

Is that relevant, though, Alan?

I cannot seem to find anything about David Gaider having working on Mass Effect. Just Dragon Age, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, and Baldur's Gate 2.

[khevan]

Ok, I'll said I didn't want to say any more, but there's something I forgot to add to my previous post.



Alot of people complain about the way the Jacob romance goes with a Femshep. The way that romance was handled is fairly heavy-handed on Bioware's part. In my games as a Maleshep, Garrus is his right-hand man, a good friend, someone he can trust in any situation. If, in ME3, they "change" Garrus to be open to a male/male romance, I would have to avoid certain dialogue to keep my relationship with him platonic. And in alot of situations, it's a bit hazy where being friendly with a character changes to flirting/starting the romance line.



I don't want that, on either a Femshep or a Maleshep. I don't want my gameplay experience to change that drastically as it regards my current relationships with certain characters.



This is why I don't want current characters "changed" to be open to same sex relationships. I don't care if other characters are introduced who are open to homosexual relationships, but I don't want current characters to be. I have relationships with them already, and this would change that. I don't want that.



That is all I have to say on the subject now. I'll leave it at that.



*tips hat*

[SorenTrigg]

Khevan, that is not really entirely fair. You should not just not have a romance in the game as an option because you do not want to accidentally do it. That is the reason why some of us are pushing for romances being made clearer.

And plus, it is already like that for *anyone* who talks to someone of the opposite sex (even though I never had problems with it myself). If you pick the 'wrong' options, you are in a relationship.

You just need to be careful at this point.

[khevan]

SorenTrigg wrote...

Khevan, that is not really entirely fair. You should not just not have a romance in the game as an option because you do not want to accidentally do it. That is the reason why some of us are pushing for romances being made clearer.
And plus, it is already like that for *anyone* who talks to someone of the opposite sex (even though I never had problems with it myself). If you pick the 'wrong' options, you are in a relationship.
You just need to be careful at this point.

As a femShep, I have to basically avoid talking to Jacob because I don't like how she basically starts flirting with him from the get-go.  Since I play mostly a maleshep, this bugs me when I do play a femshep, because I'd like her to be good friends with him too, without it sounding like the intro to a bad porn movie.

Even if the relationships were handled better in ME3, I would still have to avoid certain dialogue options where "best buds" from earlier games are concerned, and that would:

1) majorly break immersion for me because now I have to avoid a certain subject to avoid a relationship I don't want...and

2) very possibly change the nature of the relationship I've already established with a certain character, depending on how the possiblity of a same sex relationship has been introduced with that character. 

To avoid even the possibility of the above, I would much rather Bioware introduce new characters for s/s relationships, instead of opening the possibility for current characters to be open to that.

Again, this is my opinion, but I think it's a valid one.  People here are asking for same sex relationships in the MEverse.  I agree with that, but please don't change my current relationships with existing characters to do so.

[Collider]

Agree completely with Khevan. It's not as if we're never going to find out that Bioware changed the orientations of the characters. We're going to notice that there are extra dialog choices, we don't play the game once and never again. It's damaging to character - again, like Khevan said, we wouldn't care if they had been bisexual to begin with, but leave their orientation the same. That includes making a bisexual character straight. You would object to that wouldn't you?

[Tirigon]

khevan wrote...

As a femShep, I have to basically avoid talking to Jacob because I don't like how she basically starts flirting with him from the get-go.  Since I play mostly a maleshep, this bugs me when I do play a femshep, because I'd like her to be good friends with him too, without it sounding like the intro to a bad porn movie.

Even if the relationships were handled better in ME3, I would still have to avoid certain dialogue options where "best buds" from earlier games are concerned, and that would:

1) majorly break immersion for me because now I have to avoid a certain subject to avoid a relationship I don't want...and

2) very possibly change the nature of the relationship I've already established with a certain character, depending on how the possiblity of a same sex relationship has been introduced with that character. 

To avoid even the possibility of the above, I would much rather Bioware introduce new characters for s/s relationships, instead of opening the possibility for current characters to be open to that.

Again, this is my opinion, but I think it's a valid one.  People here are asking for same sex relationships in the MEverse.  I agree with that, but please don't change my current relationships with existing characters to do so.

Instead of by not making a Char bisexual these possible problems - which are quite valid points imo - should be avoided by making romance options clear and adding a friendship line to every char.

[jselene]

Collider wrote...

Agree completely with Khevan. It's not as if we're never going to find out that Bioware changed the orientations of the characters. We're going to notice that there are extra dialog choices, we don't play the game once and never again. It's damaging to character - again, like Khevan said, we wouldn't care if they had been bisexual to begin with, but leave their orientation the same. That includes making a bisexual character straight. You would object to that wouldn't you?

Hm.  I don't think that is a very good analogy.  A better one would be: If you had six homosexual squadmates, would you be willing to make two of them bi?  I'm pretty sure the answer is yes.

I don't really see how adding dialogue choices to Shep is damaging to a squadmate's character, anyhow.  I mean, it's just opening up the situation of "what if Shep says this?"--and doesn't change the squaddie's response to anything Shep's already said.  Khevan's point, however, I totally relate to, which is why I'd rather romance dialogue be added to the left side of the dialogue wheel, keeping the "normal" responses unchanged and friendship-only.  (Actually, I wouldn't mind if they did this to the hetmances, too.  So I can actually talk to people without romance-paranoia. )

[Tirigon]

jselene wrote...

(Actually, I wouldn't mind if they did this to the hetmances, too.  So I can actually talk to people without romance-paranoia. )

I agree.

[lovgreno]

I got to say that I agree on the opinion that a previously straight character suddenly turning bi might feel a bit akward. It could feel like a clumsy retcon if done clumsily if you know what I'm saying. Then again people are always more complicated than you think. There are a lot of things we don't know about the ME characters. Some might be able to come out of the wardrobe in a good way with the right writing. I sure wouldn't be able to pull it off though...

But yeah, new gay characters, why not? It's far from the most important part of a character to be honest.

[khevan]

jselene wrote...

Collider wrote...

Agree completely with Khevan. It's not as if we're never going to find out that Bioware changed the orientations of the characters. We're going to notice that there are extra dialog choices, we don't play the game once and never again. It's damaging to character - again, like Khevan said, we wouldn't care if they had been bisexual to begin with, but leave their orientation the same. That includes making a bisexual character straight. You would object to that wouldn't you?

Hm.  I don't think that is a very good analogy.  A better one would be: If you had six homosexual squadmates, would you be willing to make two of them bi?  I'm pretty sure the answer is yes.

I don't really see how adding dialogue choices to Shep is damaging to a squadmate's character, anyhow.  I mean, it's just opening up the situation of "what if Shep says this?"--and doesn't change the squaddie's response to anything Shep's already said.  Khevan's point, however, I totally relate to, which is why I'd rather romance dialogue be added to the left side of the dialogue wheel, keeping the "normal" responses unchanged and friendship-only.  (Actually, I wouldn't mind if they did this to the hetmances, too.  So I can actually talk to people without romance-paranoia. )

I'm all for changing the current romance system to what you describe above.  As it is,  we have issues in the hetmances, as you call them, because as a maleshep, I really can't talk to any of the female LI options except the one I'm pursuing.  They all seem to think that I'm after them, when all I'm trying to do is be friendly.

IF this changes, where romances are much clearer, and no hints, absolutely nothing romance-wise is suggested in any dialogue outside the left-side romance topics, I might be ok with adding same sex options to current squadmates. 

That being said, I doubt Bioware will do as good a job with this as I'd like.   While Bioware makes great games, with great characters and character interactions, quite often their romance sub-plots are either cheesy, overdone, or poorly implemented.  This is actually the biggest complaint I have with the MEverse, and so, I don't trust that Bioware would "do it right" as far as current squadmates are concerned.  This is why I'd prefer Bioware to introduce new characters for s/s romances.

And, btw, your question about 6 homosexual squadmates, two of 'em changing to bi-sexual, no, I wouldn't want that, because it changes who they are.  I'd rather they stayed homosexual and introduced new characters for a heterosexual relationship.  Just me, though.

Modifié par khevan, 09 mai 2010 - 09:00 .

[Collider]

And, btw, your question about 6 homosexual squadmates, two of 'em changing to bi-sexual, no, I wouldn't want that, because it changes who they are. I'd rather they stayed homosexual and introduced new characters for a heterosexual relationship. Just me, though.

Agreed. I don't want any changes to the characters who already have romances to change their orientations. That includes if every character was homosexual. I'm not about to ask for their characters to be changed just so I can romance them as opposite sex.That includes if every romance option in ME2 had been homosexual, including my favorites. I will accept them as they are and not try to have the developers change a facet of their character.

Modifié par Collider, 09 mai 2010 - 09:07 .

[Nordic Einar]

It's just convenient that you'll never have to worry about that, isn't it?

Modifié par Nordic Einar, 09 mai 2010 - 09:20 .

[Collider]

Nordic Einar wrote...

It's just convenient that you'll never have to worry about that, isn't it?

Sorry, I wasn't aware that I was the one responsible for Mass Effect's romances. My apologies.

[jselene]

Collider wrote...

And, btw, your question about 6 homosexual squadmates, two of 'em changing to bi-sexual, no, I wouldn't want that, because it changes who they are. I'd rather they stayed homosexual and introduced new characters for a heterosexual relationship. Just me, though.

Agreed. I don't want any changes to the characters who already have romances to change their orientations. That includes if every character was homosexual. I'm not about to ask for their characters to be changed just so I can romance them as opposite sex.That includes if every romance option in ME2 had been homosexual, including my favorites. I will accept them as they are and not try to have the developers change a facet of their character.

Ack, sorry for the assumption!  /blush.  But one question: would you have a problem with, say, characters with late-in-development s/s romance cuts (like Kaidan, etc.) being made bi in ME3, given that it was the intention before they ran out of time*?  

*From original ME board