7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Onyx Jaguar]

jselene wrote...

Collider wrote...

And, btw, your question about 6 homosexual squadmates, two of 'em changing to bi-sexual, no, I wouldn't want that, because it changes who they are. I'd rather they stayed homosexual and introduced new characters for a heterosexual relationship. Just me, though.

Agreed. I don't want any changes to the characters who already have romances to change their orientations. That includes if every character was homosexual. I'm not about to ask for their characters to be changed just so I can romance them as opposite sex.That includes if every romance option in ME2 had been homosexual, including my favorites. I will accept them as they are and not try to have the developers change a facet of their character.

Ack, sorry for the assumption!  /blush.  But one question: would you have a problem with, say, characters with late-in-development s/s romance cuts (like Kaidan, etc.) being made bi in ME3, given that it was the intention before they ran out of time*?  

*From original ME board

Generally I'd rather have them patch the original game before going forward with such an option with that in ME3.  Give him some history in that regard.

[Collider]

jselene wrote...

Collider wrote...

And, btw, your question about 6 homosexual squadmates, two of 'em changing to bi-sexual, no, I wouldn't want that, because it changes who they are. I'd rather they stayed homosexual and introduced new characters for a heterosexual relationship. Just me, though.

Agreed. I don't want any changes to the characters who already have romances to change their orientations. That includes if every character was homosexual. I'm not about to ask for their characters to be changed just so I can romance them as opposite sex.That includes if every romance option in ME2 had been homosexual, including my favorites. I will accept them as they are and not try to have the developers change a facet of their character.

Ack, sorry for the assumption!  /blush.  But one question: would you have a problem with, say, characters with late-in-development s/s romance cuts (like Kaidan, etc.) being made bi in ME3, given that it was the intention before they ran out of time*?  

*From original ME board

I believe that the Bioware post noted that this guy wasn't completely sure what he was saying was true. That's an important thing to consider.

But this case is more sympathetic to me. Sadly though, I am still going to have to argue against this. What is in the game is canon - it's far too late to change their orientations. Let me present another scenario. Due to time restraints, they were unable to remove the option for a character to be open to the same sex. Their intention was for the character to be straight. Would you have a problem if they released a patch that disallowed from this character to be open to the same sex, that invalidated your romance if you played before the patch?

Modifié par Collider, 09 mai 2010 - 09:32 .

[khevan]

jselene wrote...

Ack, sorry for the assumption!  /blush.  But one question: would you have a problem with, say, characters with late-in-development s/s romance cuts (like Kaidan, etc.) being made bi in ME3, given that it was the intention before they ran out of time*?  

*From original ME board

Whatever was intended is, in my opinion, a moot point.  I didn't read your link, but as far as I was ever aware, there was no option for a s/s relationship with any character (Liara being the exception, but that's understood by everyone here, I think) and so, to me, all of the characters are set how they are now.

Like I said above, if it were able to be done without my current relationships with certain characters changing, I'd at least think about it, and I probably wouldn't be too upset by it if it happened.  I just doubt Bioware can pull it off without  something from the romance sub-plot bleeding into regular conversation.  If I play ME3, and I get hints from Garrus that he'd like a more romantic relationship with my maleshep, it'd bother the hell out of me, because that just doesn't fit with what I've seen of his character.

Same with Kaidan, or any of the LI's, male or female. 

I just think the easiest way to introduce s/s romances into ME3 would be to introduce new characters specifically for that purpose.  It'd be too easy for the changes in current squaddies to bleed into the rest of the conversation, and I'd have issues with that.

[jselene]

Collider wrote...

I believe that the Bioware post noted that this guy wasn't completely sure what he was saying was true. That's an important thing to consider.

But this case is more sympathetic to me. Sadly though, I am still going to have to argue against this. What is in the game is canon - it's far too late to change their orientations. Let me present another scenario. Due to time restraints, they were unable to remove the option for a character to be open to the same sex. Their intention was for the character to be straight. Would you have a problem if they released a patch that disallowed from this character to be open to the same sex, that invalidated your romance if you played before the patch?

Good question.  I'm not sure, but I'd like to think "yes."  I mean, when the dialogue was made for the opposite sex but misflagged, you can generally tell.  It's happened in fanmods, and the reverse happened in KOTOR with Juhani.

EDIT:

khevan wrote...

Whatever was intended is, in my opinion, a moot point.  I didn't read your link, but as far as I was ever aware,
there was no option for a s/s relationship with any character (Liara being the exception, but that's understood by everyone here, I think) and so, to me, all of the characters are set how they are now.

Like I said above, if it were able to be done without my current relationships with certain characters changing, I'd at least think about it, and I probably wouldn't be too upset by it if it happened.  I just doubt Bioware can pull it off without  something from the romance sub-plot bleeding into regular conversation.  If I play ME3, and I get hints from Garrus that he'd like a more romantic relationship with my maleshep, it'd bother the hell out of me, because that just doesn't fit with what I've seen of his character.

Same with Kaidan, or any of the LI's, male or female. 

I just think the easiest way to introduce s/s romances into ME3 would be to introduce new characters specifically for that purpose.  It'd be too easy for the changes in current squaddies to bleed into the rest of the conversation, and I'd have issues with that.

Fair enough.  But just for the sake of asking, (and because Collider made me think of it xD,) what do you think of Juhani, mentioned above, who got patched post-release to change the qualifications for romancing her?  In other words: at what point in time is the romancability of a character set in stone?  And what about characters like Garrus, who weren't romancable by anyone in ME1--does this also count as a character change?
(edit again, for formatting.)

Modifié par jselene, 09 mai 2010 - 09:55 .

[SorenTrigg]

Collider, there are conflicting things in the game with the characters, though. So you cannot consider everything canon.

Like how some characters change in personality depending on how loyalty missions are handled, and so forth.



Plus, again people, remember that no one in the games is explicitly one sexuality or another. Past relationships and what you can see does not mean anything. No one has ever said "Sorry, Shepard, I am only into X."

And sometimes how the characters feel romantically changes from game to game. Again, citing Garrus and Tali as examples.

[Collider]

Like how some characters change in personality depending on how loyalty missions are handled, and so forth.

Because sexual orientation is as easy to change as someone's views on aliens, right? Just a light switch right?

And what about characters like Garrus, who weren't romancable by anyone in ME1--does this also count as a character change?

Garrus was not romanceable in ME1. There was no indication of his sexuality whatsoever. He is in ME2, and only open to the opposite sex. That is the distinction.

[SorenTrigg]

You are misunderstanding me, Collider.

I was only bringing up the thing with loyalty missions because you said

Collider wrote...



But this case is more sympathetic to me. Sadly though, I am still going to have to argue against this. What is in the game is canon - it's far too late to change their orientations.

I only brought it up, as not everything in the game is canon for everyone. Since that is part of the nature of the game.

And as for Garrus not being romanceable in ME1. That was my entire point. He wasn't. He changed in ME2 to suddenly being willing to get with a human.

[Tirigon]

Collider wrote...

Like how some characters change in personality depending on how loyalty missions are handled, and so forth.

Because sexual orientation is as easy to change as someone's views on aliens, right? Just a light switch right?

Far easier, I´d say.

[khevan]

jselene wrote...

Fair enough.  But just for the sake of asking, (and because Collider made me think of it xD,) what do you think of Juhani, mentioned above, who got patched post-release to change the qualifications for romancing her?  In other words: at what point in time is the romancability of a character set in stone?  And what about characters like Garrus, who weren't romancable by anyone in ME1--does this also count as a character change?
(edit again, for formatting.)

As far as Juhani goes, I never really romanced her at all, so I never knew that she was patched post release to change her romance.  Since I don't really know the specifics, I can't say too much, but if she was one orientation (hetero or homosexual, doesn't matter) and they changed it to the other, I can say that I don't like the patch, 'cause it changed who she was originally.  If it was a case of she was one orientation and the devs meant for her to be bisexual, but somehow left that flag out or whatever, I'm not as against it, because it was a mistake, or time constraints or whatever.  I would accept it, but I don't think I'd be for it.

Garrus and Tali being romanceable in ME2 was a bit of a stretch to me, since they weren't romanceable in ME1, but it's not quite the same thing as being, at least to appearances, heterosexual and suddenly being bisexual.  That, to me, is a change in the actual personality of the character, where being romanceable (in whatever fashion, in this case, it's hetero-only) in the second game can be seen as character progression.

IF Bioware went back and patched the ME games to allow for bisexual relationships, I'd be more ok with them, instead of "Here's ME3, and oh, hey, Garrus wants to be more than just friends, John Shepard!"

I'd still prefer that the romance options were more discreet, and no bleed-thru to regular conversations happened (because I still have the characters in my head as heterosexual), but I'd be more ok with it if they had more of a "history" of sexual orientation.

[jselene]

khevan wrote...

IF Bioware went back and patched the ME games to allow for bisexual relationships, I'd be more ok with them, instead of "Here's ME3, and oh, hey, Garrus wants to be more than just friends, John Shepard!"

I'd still prefer that the romance options were more discreet, and no bleed-thru to regular conversations happened (because I still have the characters in my head as heterosexual), but I'd be more ok with it if they had more of a "history" of sexual orientation.

I can see where you're coming from, and I actually agree with you about patches being better than spontaneous ME3 orientation shifts.  The only problem, from my perspective, is that it's less likely to happen.  Not to mention, the writers could always come up with an explanation.  Like... an explanation that would require Shep to activate the romance him/herself before any flirting appears from the other character. 

...but no personal quest alignment change -> bisexuality, please.  That just reminds me of NWN1 mods and the way that straight, good-aligned female LIs all seemed to magically became bi when evil.  Gah.  Do not want. 

[khevan]

I do have an idea that would work well for everyone, IF Bioware would be willing to do this. I don't see it taking too much more coding effort on their parts, but since I'm not a coder, I couldn't say for certain.



Basically, make it a free DLC. Someone wants s/s romances with existing characters, they can d/l the content. Someone doesn't want existing characters with s/s options? Don't download.



Either way, if they went with s/s romances, I'd suggest having at least a couple of new characters who are either homosexual or bisexual, just for those who have no interest in current squadmates.



But I agree with the whole alignment change=sexual orientation change being a bad idea.

[jselene]

khevan wrote...

I do have an idea that would work well for everyone, IF Bioware would be willing to do this. I don't see it taking too much more coding effort on their parts, but since I'm not a coder, I couldn't say for certain.

Basically, make it a free DLC. Someone wants s/s romances with existing characters, they can d/l the content. Someone doesn't want existing characters with s/s options? Don't download.

Either way, if they went with s/s romances, I'd suggest having at least a couple of new characters who are either homosexual or bisexual, just for those who have no interest in current squadmates.

But I agree with the whole alignment change=sexual orientation change being a bad idea.

I support this.  Very much.  (As long as s/s romances with new characters exist in the basegame, thus avoiding unfortunate implications, of course. :innocent:)

[khevan]

jselene wrote...

khevan wrote...

I do have an idea that would work well for everyone, IF Bioware would be willing to do this. I don't see it taking too much more coding effort on their parts, but since I'm not a coder, I couldn't say for certain.

Basically, make it a free DLC. Someone wants s/s romances with existing characters, they can d/l the content. Someone doesn't want existing characters with s/s options? Don't download.

Either way, if they went with s/s romances, I'd suggest having at least a couple of new characters who are either homosexual or bisexual, just for those who have no interest in current squadmates.

But I agree with the whole alignment change=sexual orientation change being a bad idea.

I support this.  Very much.  (As long as s/s romances with new characters exist in the basegame, thus avoiding unfortunate implications, of course. :innocent:)

Exactly, that's why I suggested it.  Both to give more options, and to avoid any, as you say, unpleasant implications. *channeling my inner Mordin with that last statement.

[Nordic Einar]

khevan wrote...

jselene wrote...

Fair enough.  But just for the sake of asking, (and because Collider made me think of it xD,) what do you think of Juhani, mentioned above, who got patched post-release to change the qualifications for romancing her?  In other words: at what point in time is the romancability of a character set in stone?  And what about characters like Garrus, who weren't romancable by anyone in ME1--does this also count as a character change?
(edit again, for formatting.)

As far as Juhani goes, I never really romanced her at all, so I never knew that she was patched post release to change her romance.  Since I don't really know the specifics, I can't say too much, but if she was one orientation (hetero or homosexual, doesn't matter) and they changed it to the other, I can say that I don't like the patch, 'cause it changed who she was originally.  If it was a case of she was one orientation and the devs meant for her to be bisexual, but somehow left that flag out or whatever, I'm not as against it, because it was a mistake, or time constraints or whatever.  I would accept it, but I don't think I'd be for it.

Garrus and Tali being romanceable in ME2 was a bit of a stretch to me, since they weren't romanceable in ME1, but it's not quite the same thing as being, at least to appearances, heterosexual and suddenly being bisexual.  That, to me, is a change in the actual personality of the character, where being romanceable (in whatever fashion, in this case, it's hetero-only) in the second game can be seen as character progression.

IF Bioware went back and patched the ME games to allow for bisexual relationships, I'd be more ok with them, instead of "Here's ME3, and oh, hey, Garrus wants to be more than just friends, John Shepard!"

I'd still prefer that the romance options were more discreet, and no bleed-thru to regular conversations happened (because I still have the characters in my head as heterosexual), but I'd be more ok with it if they had more of a "history" of sexual orientation.

Speaking as a gay male here who has had relationships with women in the past I'm pretty sure it shocked all of my friends and family when "my personality suddenly changed". That doesn't make me any less gay.

Discovering your sexuality late in life, or (especially with the case of bisexuals) appearing to be strictly straight until late in life is not uncommon at all.

Appearing to be straight != make one straight.

[Peppard]

Nordic Einar wrote...

khevan wrote...

jselene wrote...

Fair enough.  But just for the sake of asking, (and because Collider made me think of it xD,) what do you think of Juhani, mentioned above, who got patched post-release to change the qualifications for romancing her?  In other words: at what point in time is the romancability of a character set in stone?  And what about characters like Garrus, who weren't romancable by anyone in ME1--does this also count as a character change?
(edit again, for formatting.)

As far as Juhani goes, I never really romanced her at all, so I never knew that she was patched post release to change her romance.  Since I don't really know the specifics, I can't say too much, but if she was one orientation (hetero or homosexual, doesn't matter) and they changed it to the other, I can say that I don't like the patch, 'cause it changed who she was originally.  If it was a case of she was one orientation and the devs meant for her to be bisexual, but somehow left that flag out or whatever, I'm not as against it, because it was a mistake, or time constraints or whatever.  I would accept it, but I don't think I'd be for it.

Garrus and Tali being romanceable in ME2 was a bit of a stretch to me, since they weren't romanceable in ME1, but it's not quite the same thing as being, at least to appearances, heterosexual and suddenly being bisexual.  That, to me, is a change in the actual personality of the character, where being romanceable (in whatever fashion, in this case, it's hetero-only) in the second game can be seen as character progression.

IF Bioware went back and patched the ME games to allow for bisexual relationships, I'd be more ok with them, instead of "Here's ME3, and oh, hey, Garrus wants to be more than just friends, John Shepard!"

I'd still prefer that the romance options were more discreet, and no bleed-thru to regular conversations happened (because I still have the characters in my head as heterosexual), but I'd be more ok with it if they had more of a "history" of sexual orientation.

Speaking as a gay male here who has had relationships with women in the past I'm pretty sure it shocked all of my friends and family when "my personality suddenly changed". That doesn't make me any less gay.

Discovering your sexuality late in life, or (especially with the case of bisexuals) appearing to be strictly straight until late in life is not uncommon at all.

Appearing to be straight != make one straight.

Indeed.  Why do so many people think you can always tell someone's orientation from outward behavior?   How many of you making that assumption actually know anyone who's gay/bisexual ?  The first person I ever met who was gay was totally open and over the top about it, but since then, especially when working at a law firm, ( a liberal SF type law firm), I had no clue about some people til I realized when they were saying "partner" they didn't mean in the law firm.

[Collider]

The difference Peppard is that this isn't real life, this is a video game. Male Shepard and Female Shepard can act exactly the same. The people who realize they were gay were always gay. What if Liara said that they realized that she didn't like women? And in ME3 any romances with her and femShep are null and void? That'd be pretty unfavorable.

[SorenTrigg]

Collider, there is a difference though. What you are saying is making romances more closed off.

We were discussing making them more open. Which would have no effect on your prior relationships at all.

So that example is kind of irrelevant.

[Peppard]

Collider wrote...

The difference Peppard is that this isn't real life, this is a video game. Male Shepard and Female Shepard can act exactly the same. The people who realize they were gay were always gay. What if Liara said that they realized that she didn't like women? And in ME3 any romances with her and femShep are null and void? That'd be pretty unfavorable.

Let me try to explain my point another way.  In real life, we don't always know everything about the private lives of people we meet, especially people in professional settings.  One of the things we might not know is orientation. Now I wasn't saying they could change something that's already been revealed, but if there wasn't any explicit information about the topic, then there'd be room to write something in, as long as it didn't  directly contradict anything already shown.  Your example was a direct change. They could for example, reveal that Kaidan believes in god, unless he specifically stated he was atheist, but they cannot reveal that Ashley doesn't believe in god, when in ME1 she stated she did.  Writers have some room to alter or add to what we know about characters, because in the game, as in real life, we   don't know what we don't know.   Ack, I'm almost quoting Rumsfeld....but as silly as it sounds to talk about known knowns,  and unknown unknowns.... hopefully the point is clearer.  But it's probably more muddled than ever!

[khevan]

If this were real life, we wouldn't be having this conversation. A homosexual Shepard would look until they found someone who he/she could have a relationship with. Characters in a story (and ME is a story, no matter the gameplay elements) are much more defined than real people. They have to be, for a reader (or in this case, the player) to "get" that character. Romances in real life take FAR longer to establish themselves than what we see in games, yet no one is calling this unrealistic. Well, some people do, but they are generally seen as not seeing the difference between a game and real life.



As far as "the story" of Mass Effect has developed so far, none of the characters, with the exception of Liara, and the possible exception of Jack (thru her background dialogue) are seen as anything other than heterosexual. For the game developers (authors of this story) to suddenly put the option for same sex romances for current squadmembers, it would feel much like a retcon, and be immersion breaking, at least for me.



Again, IF Bioware patches ME1&2 to at least hint at the possibility, even if they don't patch ME1&2 to actually allow same sex romances, I could live with at least some of the characters to be bisexual in ME3. But as it stands now, all of the current squadmates are heterosexual, since that's the only way they've been portrayed.



I do understand that many people who have come out have done so later in life, I actually have a couple of friends who are gay men, and I have no problem with them. If I had a good friend, in real life, who suddenly came to me and said "Hey, man, I'm gay," I'd like to think I wouldn't have a problem with that. However, since *I* am rampantly heterosexual, if I had a good friend come up to me and say "Hey, man, I'm gay, and I've had a crush on you since...." I'd probably have a problem with that. My relationship with that person would change, and probably not for the better. I'm only human, and that would bother me. This is what I would like to avoid in ME3 with certain squadmates. I try to really get in my Shepard's head, unless I'm doing a "just for fun" full Renegade or full Paragon playthru, and so the relationships with different characters is at least somewhat "real," at least as far as videogame relationships go. I don't want those relationships to change in that manner.



I also said earlier that I'd support a free DLC for that kind of content, if Bioware goes that route. I wouldn't download it, but it'd be available for people who'd want to. I just hope people can understand my position, and even if you don't agree, don't think worse of me for it.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I'm with JohnnyDollar and khevan on this one. To me it would feel like a rewrite of the characters.

[Atomic Space Vixen]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I'm with JohnnyDollar and khevan on this one. To me it would feel like a rewrite of the characters.

Yeah. I'm glad they didn't do that with Tali or Garrus...

[Wittand25]

My take on making two of the LI bi in ME2 through DLC is that I would be opposed to it if the npcs are clearly written as straight.

But in ME2 they are not written as straight in my opinion, take for example Jacob. He treats a male and a female Shepard exactly the same way and has the same dialog with both of them untill the romance trigger happens. This makes his conversations with a male Shepard come across as subtle flirting (the compliments about the body, the talk about fraternisation,... ). There is nothing in his behavior that shows that his interest in male Shepard is any different than his interest in female Shepard, compare that to Alistair in DA who adjust his treatment of the warden depending on the warden´s sex even if you dont persue his romance.

[khevan]

Wittand25 wrote...

My take on making two of the LI bi in ME2 through DLC is that I would be opposed to it if the npcs are clearly written as straight.
But in ME2 they are not written as straight in my opinion, take for example Jacob. He treats a male and a female Shepard exactly the same way and has the same dialog with both of them untill the romance trigger happens. This makes his conversations with a male Shepard come across as subtle flirting (the compliments about the body, the talk about fraternisation,... ). There is nothing in his behavior that shows that his interest in male Shepard is any different than his interest in female Shepard, compare that to Alistair in DA who adjust his treatment of the warden depending on the warden´s sex even if you dont persue his romance.

To be honest, I don't know where you're getting the subtle flirting aspect of a male shep talking to Jacob.  I've never gotten that impression, and on almost all of my playthrus, I've taken the convos with him to the "bro hug."

The talk about fraternization isn't flirting, because fraternization isn't gender specific.  Military law usually restricts the personal relationships an officer (or anyone of higher rank, for that matter) can have with his/her subordinates.  A sergeant can be brought up on fraternization charges for having a beer with his squad in an infantry unit.  It usually doesn't happen unless the fraternization is fairly egregious, but it doesn't have to be a sexual/romantic relationship.  Simply one that's inappropriate for commanders (of any rank) and subordinates.

And the comment about Jacob keeping in shape is a compliment, yes, but I never heard a flirting tone of any sort from maleShep. 

You wouldn't perhaps be a homosexual male, would you?  It's a sincere question, I'm just trying to figure out where the percieved sexual tension is coming from.  I've noticed that it's usually homosexual ladies who get the "flirting" from Tali's conversations, and now there's a "flirting" in Jacob's conversations.  I'm wondering if it's because my brain is heterosexual, I look for heterosexual cues, and homosexuals look for homosexual cues.  In other words, if it's a matter of perspective.  No offense intended if anyone reads this wrong.  It's hard to convey intent in just words.  I'm merely curious how someone can notice something that I never saw, and even when they point it out, I just don't see it.

As far as the DLC goes, it's a win/win from everyone's perspective, but only if Bioware intentionally includes at least two new characters who are either homosexual or bisexual, so that the DLC isn't a way to not include same sex material in the game itself.  For the DLC for current squadmates, people who want the option to have them as bisexual can have it, people who don't want them as bisexual can have that too.  I'd even support having them as bisexual out of the box, with a DLC to "block" that, so that no one thinks the DLC is a form of discrimination.  That is in no way my intent.