7455 réponses à ce sujet

[khevan]

Atomic Space Vixen wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I'm with JohnnyDollar and khevan on this one. To me it would feel like a rewrite of the characters.

Yeah. I'm glad they didn't do that with Tali or Garrus...

Having a character that was previously unromanceable in another game open up for a romance isn't a rewrite, it's character development.  Having a character who has (to all appearances, at least) been presented as one sexual orientation suddenly act as if he/she were another orientation is a rewrite of that character, independant of the orientations involved.

If they'd opened Garrus or Tali up to being romanceable by both genders in ME2, I honestly wouldn't have a problem with it.  Since the characters weren't presented as bisexual in ME2, I can only conclude that they are, in fact, heterosexual, thus any change to this would be a rewrite of the character.  It's the rewrite that bugs me, not the fact that it's a gay/straight issue.

If you weren't going for a snide tone, I apologize for taking offense, but the way your post was written came across as sarcastically derisive.  I feel I have been nothing but polite in this conversation, as has Onyx Jaguar and the others who have agreed with me.  If you were trying to be snide, please drop the attitude, and either contribute to the discussion in a reasonable manner, or leave the discussion alone, thanks.

[Tirigon]

khevan wrote...

jselene wrote...

khevan wrote...

I do have an idea that would work well for everyone, IF Bioware would be willing to do this. I don't see it taking too much more coding effort on their parts, but since I'm not a coder, I couldn't say for certain.

Basically, make it a free DLC. Someone wants s/s romances with existing characters, they can d/l the content. Someone doesn't want existing characters with s/s options? Don't download.

Either way, if they went with s/s romances, I'd suggest having at least a couple of new characters who are either homosexual or bisexual, just for those who have no interest in current squadmates.

But I agree with the whole alignment change=sexual orientation change being a bad idea.

I support this.  Very much.  (As long as s/s romances with new characters exist in the basegame, thus avoiding unfortunate implications, of course. :innocent:)

Exactly, that's why I suggested it.  Both to give more options, and to avoid any, as you say, unpleasant implications. *channeling my inner Mordin with that last statement.

Signed. And QFT.

[Tirigon]

Atomic Space Vixen wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I'm with JohnnyDollar and khevan on this one. To me it would feel like a rewrite of the characters.

Yeah. I'm glad they didn't do that with Tali or Garrus...

Oh the IRONY!!!!!!!!



Just sad that Tali talks to FemShep with exactly the same lines as those that open the romance for a Male Shep, sooooo.........

[Tirigon]

khevan wrote...

Having a character that was previously unromanceable in another game open up for a romance isn't a rewrite, it's character development.  Having a character who has (to all appearances, at least) been presented as one sexual orientation suddenly act as if he/she were another orientation is a rewrite of that character, independant of the orientations involved.

I´d really like you to explain that. WHY is it a rewrite? Maybe it´s just a late outcome - like you earlier said you know from RL already.



Besides of that, it is utterly subjective that they come across as heterosexual.

To me it is clear that Jack and Tali are bi, Garrus and Thane both love Shep for the Character, not the looks (Garrus even says he isn´t attracted to humans at all) so I don´t understand why Shep´s gender matters to them, and Jacob always seemed gay to me (though I admit I can´t say why exactly, it´s more a feeling).

The only LI that seems heterosexual is Miranda - and considering how much her behaviour changes during the game I wouldn´t be surprised if this would change, too.

[khevan]

Tirigon wrote...

khevan wrote...

Having a character that was previously unromanceable in another game open up for a romance isn't a rewrite, it's character development.  Having a character who has (to all appearances, at least) been presented as one sexual orientation suddenly act as if he/she were another orientation is a rewrite of that character, independant of the orientations involved.

I´d really like you to explain that. WHY is it a rewrite? Maybe it´s just a late outcome - like you earlier said you know from RL already.



Besides of that, it is utterly subjective that they come across as heterosexual.

To me it is clear that Jack and Tali are bi, Garrus and Thane both love Shep for the Character, not the looks (Garrus even says he isn´t attracted to humans at all) so I don´t understand why Shep´s gender matters to them, and Jacob always seemed gay to me (though I admit I can´t say why exactly, it´s more a feeling).

The only LI that seems heterosexual is Miranda - and considering how much her behaviour changes during the game I wouldn´t be surprised if this would change, too.

It's totally subjective that you see Tali as bi, Garrus and Thane as loving Shep for the character and not the gender, etc.  The only objective benchmark we have is what the characters have done.  None of the LI's are romanceable by the same gender.  Liara is the only one who has been demonstratively shown to be bisexual, and Jack has anecdotal evidence pointing towards bisexuality, so I don't have a problem with her, if they open her up to that.  Both Thane and Garrus have talked about having former female partners, Thane's wife, and Garrus' "sparring partner."  Jacob once had a thing with Miranda.  Kaidan once had the hots for a girl he was in BaAT with.  I don't remember if Ash had anything in her past that she mentioned romance-wise, but if not, she and Tali are the only ones we know nothing about their previous romances, at least in passing.

Consider a three book trilogy.  A companion character who has been in the first two books, has talked about previous (heterosexual) relationships, in book 3 suddenly starts talking about having a homosexual relationship with the main character.  Would you consider that good storytelling?  I consider it bad writing, a rewrite of the character, and it would bug me.

Mass Effect, to me, is a very engaging three-part story, with gameplay elements to help me immerse myself into the story.  Thus, to me, a character who has never said anything or acted in a way that suggested that they are open to a same sex relationship, suddenly being open to one, is a sudden left turn.  It's jarring, and feels wrong.

In the end, we're left with mostly subjective opinions, but one objective fact:  None of the LI's are romanceable by the same gender.  Thus, they aren't interested in the same gender.  And I realize this is too simplistic if I were talking about real life.  I'm not talking about real life.  I'm talking about characters in a story.  We cannot expect characters in a story to be as complex as real people.  As I've said before in this thread, characters in a story need to be more defined, more limited, than real people, to make it easier for the audience to "get" that character, their motivations and such.

THAT is why I would consider it a rewrite of the characters, and that's why I hope it either doesn't happen, or happens thru a free DLC that I don't have to download.

Modifié par khevan, 10 mai 2010 - 08:04 .

[Collider]

Agree with Khevan again. Jack and Tali are bi? Please. If they are not open to the same sex, there is no reason to believe they are BI. Not only that, but there is ZERO point to making a character BI yet not having them open to the same sex.

[khevan]

Collider wrote...

Agree with Khevan again. Jack and Tali are bi? Please. If they are not open to the same sex, there is no reason to believe they are BI. Not only that, but there is ZERO point to making a character BI yet not having them open to the same sex.

To be fair, Jack does have dialogue which suggests that she was part of a girl-girl-guy threeway, so it's at least anecdotally possible that she's bisexual, just not open to a same sex relationship with a FemShep. (Which, really, doesn't make sense if her dialogue meant what I think it meant.  She should have been a LI for a femshep.)

Modifié par khevan, 10 mai 2010 - 08:20 .

[Tirigon]

khevan wrote...


Consider a three book trilogy.  A companion character who has been in the first two books, has talked about previous (heterosexual) relationships, in book 3 suddenly starts talking about having a homosexual relationship with the main character.  Would you consider that good storytelling?  I consider it bad writing, a rewrite of the character, and it would bug me.

I consider it bad writing to cut out homosexual romances THAT WERE THERE as many people pointed out already.

Even more so if it is done in such a bad way like with Tali were I really thought it was a bug that you can´t romance her as FemShep, because she says exactly the same lines that start the romance for males. Making these Squadmates bi wouldn´t be a rewrite but simply a fix to remove the crap they produced by cutting half of the dialogue out.


Besides, I still don´t see how you can say they are totally straight just because they haven´t had a homosexual relationship yet. Maybe they just didn´t meet the right (wo)man yet?

Take me for example: I´m male, and I never felt sexually attracted to another man yet, but does that mean it´s impossible that it will change?

Modifié par Tirigon, 10 mai 2010 - 08:51 .

[khevan]

Tirigon wrote...

khevan wrote...


Consider a three book trilogy.  A companion character who has been in the first two books, has talked about previous (heterosexual) relationships, in book 3 suddenly starts talking about having a homosexual relationship with the main character.  Would you consider that good storytelling?  I consider it bad writing, a rewrite of the character, and it would bug me.

I consider it bad writing to cut out homosexual romances THAT WERE THERE as many people pointed out already.

Even more so if it is done in such a bad way like with Tali were I really thought it was a bug that you can´t romance her as FemShep, because she says exactly the same lines that start the romance for males. Making these Squadmates bi wouldn´t be a rewrite but simply a fix to remove the crap they produced by cutting half of the dialogue out.


Besides, I still don´t see how you can say they are totally straight just because they haven´t had a homosexual relationship yet. Maybe they just didn´t meet the right (wo)man yet?

Take me for example: I´m male, and I never felt sexually attracted to another man yet, but does that mean it´s impossible that it will change?

What homosexual romances were available before they were cut?  The only one I've heard of is Kaidan, and that was from a (very) unreliable European internet source, which was discounted by Bioware soon after the claim was made, and this was, I believe, before ME1 even came out.  If there are others that I don't know about, please tell me so I can make a more accurate judgement.  The Tali-FemShep romance "bug" is a subjective claim, because before I read it on these forums, I never once got the impression that Tali was flirting with FemShep.  I played ME2 first as a FemShep, only when I played thru as a MaleShep did I realize that was the lead in to the romance.  Even when playing it again as a FemShep later, it felt like Tali was talking about the suit-linking as a sign of trust, but got embarrassed when she realized it could also be a sign for intimacy.  Basically, I felt like she stuck her foot in her mouth, and got embarrassed by it.

All of this is, again, subjective, nothing but opinion.  You have the right to your opinion, but so do I, and I think that making current squadmembers available for same sex romances would be a rewrite of their characters, since nothing in the first two games suggested to me that they were anything but heterosexual.  The only exception to this is Jack, who had the dialogue that at least suggested that she was bisexual.  The fact that none of the LI's are romanceable by the same gender is an objective fact that only serves to strengthen my opinion.

If it's done thru DLC, I won't have a problem with it.  If BioWare releases a patch to either game to give a history to the character that they were bisexual earlier, I'd still have a problem with it, because it's a rewrite to the character, but it's at least a rewrite that doesn't come at you in ME3 like a speeding bus out of left field.

[Collider]

For all of the romance aside from Jacob, there are recorded lines for Shepard M/M and F/F. The only romances that we have some evidence were cut were Kaidan and Ashley, none others.

[Tirigon]

khevan wrote...


What homosexual romances were available before they were cut? 

Some people said there were lines for S/S romances for every ME2 LI except Jacob. Was in this discussion only a few pages ago.

[Tirigon]

Collider wrote...

For all of the romance aside from Jacob, there are recorded lines for Shepard M/M and F/F. The only romances that we have some evidence were cut were Kaidan and Ashley, none others.

Erm... You disagree with yourself here. If there are recorded lines but no homosexual romance that IS evidence that these romances were cut out.

Or do you honestly think they recorded these lines just because recording is so much fun?!

[khevan]

Tirigon wrote...

khevan wrote...


What homosexual romances were available before they were cut? 

Some people said there were lines for S/S romances for every ME2 LI except Jacob. Was in this discussion only a few pages ago.

Forgive me if I don't take "some people said" as proof.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but where are these lines?  How did "some people" find out about them? 

I didn't see the post talking about them, since I only entered this discussion quite recently.

[Tirigon]

khevan wrote...

Forgive me if I don't take "some people said" as proof.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but where are these lines?  How did "some people" find out about them?

Unfortunately, I didn´t hear them myself either. But it fits quite well to the characters, so I assume it´s true.

[khevan]

As far as I can say right now (I have to get to bed) scenes that are deleted from a book or a movie before release are rarely as hotly debated as this. I would say that the fact that such scenes were deleted is an indication that Bioware (the authors) decided that they didn't want the characters to be bisexual. Which means that they intended the characters to be heterosexual. Which means that making the bisexual in ME3 is a rewrite to their characters, and in that case, my point still stands. You may disagree with Bioware's decision, but as the authors of the story, it's their decision to make. Asking for Bioware to change their minds is akin to asking an author to change their characters because you want them to.



I fully support having homosexual romances in ME3. I wish they had been in ME1 and 2 (Liara doesn't really count). But the current characters are the way they are because that's the way the authors chose for them to be. Changing it now would be a rewrite, even if it's a return to a "draft version" of the story. The released version of the story is how you judge a character, not on the draft version.



And on that note, it's time for me to head off to bed.

[noparanoia]

I like the fact that some people in this thread are so uncomfortable about the idea of a game that has the option to be gay but are fine about the game containing the option of being a ruthless killer who murders anyone who gets in your way.

My Shepard is a pretty nice guy most of the time... he turns down opportunities to add to peoples' suffering. I thought making choices was what differentiated an RPG from a game where your character is pre-defined. By that logic anything that adds another option to the game has to be a good thing in my book, even if it is an option I only intend to turn down (Is that some sort paradox?)

Tough, gay characters are pretty rare, so are by default interesting. A gay Shepard could be cool, maybe like Omar Little in space. I have no desire to see (e.g. watch) Shepard getting off with guys though, so the option to keep personal stuff private would be a clincher for me. I guess I'm in the minority though, someone who is uncomfortable actually watching guy-on-guy action but might consider playing a character who is gay/bi just for the crack (unfortunate wording there)

[LiquidGrape]

NM

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 10 mai 2010 - 11:23 .

[ElitePinecone]

Here's a YouTube video of MShep/Kaidan romance (the game files had to be edited to unlock the dialogue).

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPMOlEfhWGE

I also remember seeing a video of different dialogue between an imported Kaidan-romancing MShep and Kaidan on Horizon.



The dialogue was certainly there then...

Edit: I fail at BBCode, but here's some links. 

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 10 mai 2010 - 11:29 .

[Peppard]

Ok, backing up for a second here: What does Retcon mean? The urban dictionary says:

1. retcon

(shortened form of RETroactive CONtinuity; first made popular in the comic book world)



1. (original meaning) Adding information to the back story of a fictional character or world, without invalidating that which had gone before.



2. (more common usage) Adding or altering information regarding the back story of a fictional character or world, regardless of whether the change contradicts what was said before.

Some of you seem to be using "retcon" to mean adding or altering information that contradicts not only what was said, but information that was not even strongly implied or relevant to the original story.

People seem to remember we're talking about a video game only when that fact supports what they want to argue. Well, in a video game, unlike for a novel or movie, the writers probably don't have the time to go into detail for some characters, plus for others, they need to write a character that works with multiple personalities to allow for player choice. Therefore, there's a limit to how much "predefining" they actually do, as well as how much of what they do define that becomes a part of the story for any particular player.



What if we find out the following things about TIM:



1) He once had an awkward moment just to see how it feels.

2) He lives vicariously through himself.

3) He had an affair with Hock, but broke it off over an argument about the Ogre statue.

4) He had an affair with Aria, but broke it off after an argument about the tackiness of Omega

5) He doesn't always drink krogan liquor, but when he does, he drinks Ryncol...and likes it.





Retcon? Or adding depth to the character? Immersion breaking? My guess is for some of you, 3 would be more odd to you than any of the other items, even number 4, yet TIM is supposed to be ultra-pro human, so not sure he'd get that friendly with an alien. In fact, I think it would be odd to find out anything about TIM's inner life one way or the other, because how would it be relevant to the story?



Team mates and Shep are a little different, of course, because we do already know some things, and as team mates, discussion gets more personal, and players are given the chance to choose how Shep reacts or feels attraction or not (for the most part). So the writers would be more limited in how they could approach adding elements than for an all business NPC like TIM, because they have already given us some information about what attracts some of those characters. They can't contradict what they already revealed. Some of you seem to be going further than that, saying they can't contradict what you assumed even if there was no reason within the story for you to assume anything, one way or the other, or even any reason the writers would have thought about it.

[Nordic Einar]

Characters interested in xenophilia "coming out" in later games? Character development!



Characters interested in human homosexual relationships "coming out" in later games? DIRTY, DIRTY RETCON!



This is kind of telling.

[khevan]

Nordic Einar wrote...

Characters interested in xenophilia "coming out" in later games? Character development!

Characters interested in human homosexual relationships "coming out" in later games? DIRTY, DIRTY RETCON!

This is kind of telling.

Dude, drop the offended act.  You're seeing insult where there is none.  People have mentioned that they wanted a Tali same sex relationship, and others have mentioned interet in Garrus.  Xenophilia isn't restricted to the "straight" side of the fence, so get over yourself.

I specifically mentioned that if the authors had opened Garrus and Tali to same sex romances when they opened them up to romances at all I wouldn't have a problem with it, at all.  Since they opened them up to heterosexual relationships only, that's how the "authors of the story" wanted the characters to be, those are the characters we got.  To go back and change what is already in place is a rewrite of the characters, nothing more.  To try to use that to pull an insult towards you is telling.

[khevan]

Peppard wrote...

Ok, backing up for a second here: What does Retcon mean? The urban dictionary says:

1. retcon
(shortened form of RETroactive CONtinuity; first made popular in the comic book world)

1. (original meaning) Adding information to the back story of a fictional character or world, without invalidating that which had gone before.

2. (more common usage) Adding or altering information regarding the back story of a fictional character or world, regardless of whether the change contradicts what was said before.

Some of you seem to be using "retcon" to mean adding or altering information that contradicts not only what was said, but information that was not even strongly implied or relevant to the original story.
People seem to remember we're talking about a video game only when that fact supports what they want to argue. Well, in a video game, unlike for a novel or movie, the writers probably don't have the time to go into detail for some characters, plus for others, they need to write a character that works with multiple personalities to allow for player choice. Therefore, there's a limit to how much "predefining" they actually do, as well as how much of what they do define that becomes a part of the story for any particular player.

What if we find out the following things about TIM:

1) He once had an awkward moment just to see how it feels.
2) He lives vicariously through himself.
3) He had an affair with Hock, but broke it off over an argument about the Ogre statue.
4) He had an affair with Aria, but broke it off after an argument about the tackiness of Omega
5) He doesn't always drink krogan liquor, but when he does, he drinks Ryncol...and likes it.


Retcon? Or adding depth to the character? Immersion breaking? My guess is for some of you, 3 would be more odd to you than any of the other items, even number 4, yet TIM is supposed to be ultra-pro human, so not sure he'd get that friendly with an alien. In fact, I think it would be odd to find out anything about TIM's inner life one way or the other, because how would it be relevant to the story?

Team mates and Shep are a little different, of course, because we do already know some things, and as team mates, discussion gets more personal, and players are given the chance to choose how Shep reacts or feels attraction or not (for the most part). So the writers would be more limited in how they could approach adding elements than for an all business NPC like TIM, because they have already given us some information about what attracts some of those characters. They can't contradict what they already revealed. Some of you seem to be going further than that, saying they can't contradict what you assumed even if there was no reason within the story for you to assume anything, one way or the other, or even any reason the writers would have thought about it.

How would I respond to the information you listed about TIM?  All of that is fluff, and there's no way Bioware would add that kind of content to the game, so it's not like I need to forumlate a response.  In any case, none of that affects the game, unlike what we were talking about earlier, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that. 

A character's sexual orientation does change the game, rather drastically in fact, because it changes the relationship between them and my Shepard.  If that weren't the case, I still wouldn't support the change, because from what I (personally) have seen so far, all of the characters are heterosexual.  Maybe Bioware played around with the idea for homosexual content, and recorded lines to that end, but decided later that it didn't fit their story (or whatever reason they had for cutting it).  In the same way an author has final say on what he cuts from his story, Bioware cut the scenes, and that's their call to make.  Thus, the characters we see in game are heterosexual.  To change that now would be to change the characters we see in game and that would be a rewrite.

[Tirigon]

khevan wrote...

Since they opened them up to heterosexual relationships only, that's how the "authors of the story" wanted the characters to be, those are the characters we got. 

AND?!

WE DON´T WANT THE CHARACTERS THAT WAY!!!!!!!


Get it?

[khevan]

Tirigon wrote...

khevan wrote...

Since they opened them up to heterosexual relationships only, that's how the "authors of the story" wanted the characters to be, those are the characters we got. 

AND?!

WE DON´T WANT THE CHARACTERS THAT WAY!!!!!!!


Get it?

AND?!

THOSE ARE THE CHARACTERS YOU'VE GOT!!!!!!!!

Get it?


Seriously, would you complain as bitterly about some friend of yours that you wished were gay but weren't?  I understand you wanting characters to change, but expecting them to change, and getting pissed off at people who don't want them to change is just petulance.  If Bioware adds homosexual content to ME3, great!  I'd FULLY support that, but the characters we have now are the characters we're going to have,  and it's simply poor writing to change a character into something they weren't before, simply because a group of fans demanded that it be done.

Modifié par khevan, 10 mai 2010 - 04:54 .