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[Cootie]

khevan wrote...

AND?!

THOSE ARE THE CHARACTERS YOU'VE GOT!!!!!!!!

Get it?


Seriously, would you complain as bitterly about some friend of yours that you wished were gay but weren't?  I understand you wanting characters to change, but expecting them to change, and getting pissed off at people who don't want them to change is just petulance.  If Bioware adds homosexual content to ME3, great!  I'd FULLY support that, but the characters we have now are the characters we're going to have,  and it's simply poor writing to change a character into something they weren't before, simply because a group of fans demanded that it be done.

Although I'm having trouble realising the difference between protesting against the lack of homosexuality amongst the current characters and protesting for the lack of homosexuality amongst the current characters.
Is there a real difference between "changing a character because people demanded it" and "Not changing a character because people demanded it"?

In my opinion, it's all in the writer's hands. We cannot put words into their mouths, but we can tell them what we want. The development of the characters is in flux until it is set in stone.
The pro-homosexual (currently available) characters Group can only influence them to cater to our wishes, to make the game more enjoyable for a wider audience.

It doesn't remove the fact that the character can be certainly straight in, for example, your playthrough. But in let's say mine, someone's homosexual.
So, that way, we're the ones shaping the characters. We just want the ability to customize them the way we want to.

[Tirigon]

khevan wrote...

I'd FULLY support that, but the characters we have now are the characters we're going to have,  and it's simply poor writing to change a character into something they weren't before, simply because a group of fans demanded that it be done.

No. I think it´s poor writing not to have made them bi to start with.

What even more sucks, is that you can´t even FLIRT with them. If BioWare wan´t a character to be straight, they should at least have given you the option to flirt with him / her and you´d get the answer "Sorry, but I´m not gay" or something like that.

Atm it´s simply removing dialogue options without adding anything else.

[khevan]

Cootie wrote...

Is there a real difference between "changing a character because people demanded it" and "Not changing a character because people demanded it"?

There's a huge difference between changing a character mid-story and keeping that character consistant with what we've seen so far.  Why is there a question about this?

In my opinion, it's all in the writer's hands. We cannot put words into their mouths, but we can tell them what we want. The development of the characters is in flux until it is set in stone.

The characters we have now are "set in stone" because of their prior history.  Changing a character mid story is poor writing.  Again, I don't understand why people aren't getting this.

The pro-homosexual (currently available) characters Group can only influence them to cater to our wishes, to make the game more enjoyable for a wider audience.

By all means, push for homosexual content in ME3.  My original post in this topic was support for such content.  Don't make a poor writing choice to do so, however.  Mass Effect is a story, with game play elements to get me thru that story.  Poor writing in a story makes for a bad story. 

It doesn't remove the fact that the character can be certainly straight in, for example, your playthrough. But in let's say mine, someone's homosexual.

And if this were done thru free DLC, I would have no problem with it, as I've expressed repeatedly, since it won't affect my game.  Adding the content for current characters into the game as it shipped would change my game.  Do you honestly think that I'd never notice that certain characters have changed sexual orientation?

So, that way, we're the ones shaping the characters. We just want the ability to customize them the way we want to.

And that's the problem.  You want to change the author's story for your own ends.  I want to keep the characters consistant, because it doesn't make sense from a literary perspective, any other way. 

This has nothing to do with gay/straight issues, in case anyone is wondering.  It's a writing/story issue.  Having characters change that drastically mid-story is poor writing, plain and simple.

Modifié par khevan, 10 mai 2010 - 06:00 .

[khevan]

Tirigon wrote...

khevan wrote...

I'd FULLY support that, but the characters we have now are the characters we're going to have,  and it's simply poor writing to change a character into something they weren't before, simply because a group of fans demanded that it be done.

No. I think it´s poor writing not to have made them bi to start with.

What even more sucks, is that you can´t even FLIRT with them. If BioWare wan´t a character to be straight, they should at least have given you the option to flirt with him / her and you´d get the answer "Sorry, but I´m not gay" or something like that.

Atm it´s simply removing dialogue options without adding anything else.

It's not poor writing to choose how you want your characters to behave.  You may disagree with the choice, but that doesn't make it bad writing.

[Atomic Space Vixen]

khevan wrote...


Having a character that was previously unromanceable in another game open up for a romance isn't a rewrite, it's character development.  Having a character who has (to all appearances, at least) been presented as one sexual orientation suddenly act as if he/she were another orientation is a rewrite of that character, independant of the orientations involved.

Having someone who wasn't previously interested in inter-species romance suddenly open to the possibility is a rewrite in the same way you're talking about opening up current characters to same-sex romance. Of course, done right it can be viewed as character development. Real life is awash with people who have been fighting their own sexuality for years finally coming to terms with it, and with bisexual people who have tended to prefer one gender ending up in a relationship with another.
While there are characters who are less likely to be gay because of their previous romances, there is nothing in pretty much any character's past that prevents them from being bi. Except for Grunt, and I've made my arguments why he's the only one who can be successfully argued as being purely heterosexual thanks to the strict controls over his fetal development and information imprinting.

If they'd opened Garrus or Tali up to being romanceable by both genders in ME2, I honestly wouldn't have a problem with it.  Since the characters weren't presented as bisexual in ME2, I can only conclude that they are, in fact, heterosexual, thus any change to this would be a rewrite of the character.  It's the rewrite that bugs me, not the fact that it's a gay/straight issue.

I'm not presented as being bisexual in life except when I'm attracted to and with a woman. When that happens, I guess I should decry my life being rewritten.
Yes, I know real life is messier than fiction, but an RPG rife with character choices is messier than a novel or a movie.

If you weren't going for a snide tone, I apologize for taking offense, but the way your post was written came across as sarcastically derisive.  I feel I have been nothing but polite in this conversation, as has Onyx Jaguar and the others who have agreed with me.  If you were trying to be snide, please drop the attitude, and either contribute to the discussion in a reasonable manner, or leave the discussion alone, thanks.

Oh, I was definitely going for sarcasm in that last post, but as it was neither a trolling post or against the TOS, nor my first post in this thread, I will not have my tone or participation dictated to thank you very much.

[khevan]

Atomic Space Vixen wrote...

Oh, I was definitely going for sarcasm in that last post, but as it was neither a trolling post or against the TOS, nor my first post in this thread, I will not have my tone or participation dictated to thank you very much.

Your post did not forwarded your position, it merely served to try to discredit a view opposite to your own in a negative manner.  If that's not trolling, it is closely related.  If you cannot discuss your side of the debate in reasonable tones, that is, indeed your choice, but I also don't have to listen to you.

[Cootie]

khevan wrote...

This has nothing to do with gay/straight issues, in case anyone is wondering.  It's a writing/story issue.  Having characters change that drastically mid-story is poor writing, plain and simple.

Although, in my opinion, zero character development is poor writing. It makes things rather stale.
But I know where you're coming from, surely, but I regard it with a bit of a more accepting attitude. It's a Sure, Why Not? deal with me. Just so we're on the same level of discussion.
I don't want to be insulting. That'd just hurt my own points.

Anyway, it strikes me as an issue of what we all percieve the characters to be like. Right now, we're just jumping to conclusions about the characters' sexualities because no one's really come out and said "No, I don't swing that way", except for maybe Ashley. I can't recall.
(Although they had homosexual dialogue recorded, didn't they? Argh, brainhurt.)

In my eyes, it's all about the alternatives. I mean, you could choose for one character to do this, one character to do that, things like so, but in another playthrough, you could make characters react differently. So it's more of an alternate route kind of game to me. Your Samara =/= My Samara.
In my opinion.

But ME-2 was really a disappointment in that area, because it was much more stale and Game-Like than the previous installment and after a while, the conversations just stopped because my Shepard had a previous romance, and every bit of development from there on had sprinkles of romance in it. And if anything, that's poor writing to me.
So, instead of going all the way with manly brofist love, there's nothing? At all?
That disturbed me more than anything. So that's why I support this thread. I'm all for optional little things, and I wanted the conversations to be a richer experience.

More options regarding the characters? Yes. Do want.

[Peppard]

khevan wrote...
 
How would I respond to the information you listed about TIM?  All of that is fluff, and there's no way Bioware would add that kind of content to the game, so it's not like I need to forumlate a response.  In any case, none of that affects the game, unlike what we were talking about earlier, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that. 

A character's sexual orientation does change the game, rather drastically in fact, because it changes the relationship between them and my Shepard.  If that weren't the case, I still wouldn't support the change, because from what I (personally) have seen so far, all of the characters are heterosexual.  Maybe Bioware played around with the idea for homosexual content, and recorded lines to that end, but decided later that it didn't fit their story (or whatever reason they had for cutting it).  In the same way an author has final say on what he cuts from his story, Bioware cut the scenes, and that's their call to make.  Thus, the characters we see in game are heterosexual.  To change that now would be to change the characters we see in game and that would be a rewrite.

My point with TIM was, his sexual orientation has so far been irrelevant.   I take that to mean that the writers have freedom to decide how, and in what way, it might or might not be relevant in the future.   I think you are implying that they do not, because it would  necessarily be an undesirable rewrite to introduce background for TIM that  presents him as anything other than straight.
 
I on the other hand think everything would depend on what story they actually write,  and to what extent it directly contradicts anything we were already told, and what the purpose of that type of storyline would be.  

I avoided talking about   Shepard or LI's because those characters have more history that's been revealed, therefore it would be easy to get bogged down in trying to debate the details about specific lines and scenes, when my point was more about the difference between retcon and invention, default versus no information.
 

[Tirigon]

khevan wrote...

So, that way, we're the ones shaping the characters. We just want the ability to customize them the way we want to.

And that's the problem.  You want to change the author's story for your own ends.  I want to keep the characters consistant, because it doesn't make sense from a literary perspective, any other way. 

I´d fully agree with you if we were talking about a novel or a movie. But we are talking about a GAME. The whole point of a RPG is that the PLAYER decides how the story goes, and not the author. BioWare even claimed that every player would have HIS OWN SHEPARD and that there is NO CANON. I think this should extent to the LIs.

[Cootie]

And of course I would like to add that in no way do I want a crappily written piece of fanfiction-worthy romancing, which is what I think you, Khevan, might be afraid of.

"I saw your manly chest and therefore I am ghey. Herp derp" is not on my agenda.

If the characters would turn bi-/omnisexual, I would prefer a manner that makes sense with the established character's history. If there's a past that points mainly to straight relationships, make it a newly discovered, alien(see what I did there?) concept, maybe? Opening up possibilities is always fun, so maybe the character's excited to 'try something new'?

These are just ideas sprung from my own head, but I hope I've made my point clear. So far, Shepard's proven it possible to defend the galaxy from the same godlike enemies twice, he's traversed several systems and he's made everyone on his ship love him to bits.

But hoh-no. Them super-believable characters have to be consistent.

EDIT: Remind me to never use Quick Reply again. It likes line-breaking.

Modifié par Cootie, 10 mai 2010 - 06:53 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Tirigon wrote...

khevan wrote...

So, that way, we're the ones shaping the characters. We just want the ability to customize them the way we want to.

And that's the problem.  You want to change the author's story for your own ends.  I want to keep the characters consistant, because it doesn't make sense from a literary perspective, any other way. 

I´d fully agree with you if we were talking about a novel or a movie. But we are talking about a GAME. The whole point of a RPG is that the PLAYER decides how the story goes, and not the author. BioWare even claimed that every player would have HIS OWN SHEPARD and that there is NO CANON. I think this should extent to the LIs.

That is not the point of Mass Effect though.  You have no major control over the characters you only have some sway in the outcome of events.  You only have control over Shepard and Humanity and its alliances.  

[Cootie]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

That is not the point of Mass Effect though.  You have no major control over the characters you only have some sway in the outcome of events.  You only have control over Shepard and Humanity and its alliances. 

And the purpose of this thread is to make a mini-protest and gather enthusiasts that would like a bit more options.
MOAR!

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yes and I do not see making every character Bi a good option, I would prefer more actual homosexual characters. Turning everything in sight Bi I am strongly against because it is a cheap compromise where we should have actual homosexual characters.

[Tirigon]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

That is not the point of Mass Effect though.  You have no major control over the characters you only have some sway in the outcome of events.  You only have control over Shepard and Humanity and its alliances.  

Then we should complain to Chris Prestley and ask why he lied. Because HE said that everyone can play his game the way he wants.





Also there is this matter of no flirt options.

See, I´d like it if you could flirt with everyone and some would just say that they aren´t gay, or that Shep is not their type or whatever.

But atm it is like "Flirt option = automatic romance" (unless you don´t choose it of course). It seems not like some Chars aren´t gay, but that Shepard isn´t interested in them.

If BioWare would want for example Garrus to be straight, than a male should still be able to flirt, only that Garrus would turn you down. That´d be totally ok for me.
But it sucks that there are just no romance dialogue options at all.

[lovgreno]

The point of a RPG is to change things the way you want it isn't it? Wich should include as much options and different consequences as possible. Basicaly we are writing our own story about Shepard and his/her world and we give the characters different roles. Your Shepard and LI isn't my Shepard and LI.

Consistent and beliveable characters? Come on now, this is a spaceopera game, a genre that usualy allows almost anything. Wich is how science fiction should be.

Shepard died and resurected, killed robot Chtulu, made a mockery out of our physical laws with biotics and mass relays, fell in love with a alien, talked experienced alien leaders to totaly change their minds etc, etc... I have NO problem with any of those things, if it makes a good story I will allow it. I don't think most other ME fans disagree, if they did they would not be the science fiction type to start with.

So I don't think someone coming out of the bi closest would be very unbelievable or inconsistent in the ME universe. Stranger things have happened in Shepards life.

If it could be written and coded in a good way is another question, but I leave that to the professionals.

[Ryzaki]

LOL killed robot Chtulu. XD



Shepard does do some pretty outrageous things for a human soldier doesn't he/she?

[Onyx Jaguar]

Guys guys guys, stop using old RPG archetypes as a backbone of your opinion. Mass Effect is first and foremost a Video Game, what you guys are asking for is a type of customization that is leaps and bounds away from what Mass Effect offers as an experience. You don't get such a thing in Dragon Age. KOTOR, KOTOR 2, Planescape Torment. Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2. Or anything.



This is something you don't even see in RPGS such customization you guys are referring to is in the likes of 4x games that allow you to customize the experience to whatever you see fit.



You are arguing for something that is NOT going to happen. We should all argue for something that COULD happen.

[lovgreno]

You are arguing for something that is NOT going to happen. We should all argue for something that COULD happen.

It could happen, it's Biowares choice not ours. Fine by me, its their game.

[Onyx Jaguar]

lovgreno wrote...

You are arguing for something that is NOT going to happen. We should all argue for something that COULD happen.

It could happen, it's Biowares choice not ours. Fine by me, its their game.

What could happen is that Bioware writes in the dialogue for ME 3 that turns characters bisexual.  What I have seen recently are people who want Bioware to add in sort of a highly customized experience to change the characters to their liking.  That is not going to happen.  Could it?  No it really couldn't.  Only if done by Mods, it would complicate the game far too much.

[Tirigon]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...


You are arguing for something that is NOT going to happen. We should all argue for something that COULD happen.

Lol. Re-adding content that should have been in already but was cut out for some reason is really not hard. If only BioWare would listen to us it could happen before you can say "COOL NEW DLC!!!"

[Onyx Jaguar]

Tirigon wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...


You are arguing for something that is NOT going to happen. We should all argue for something that COULD happen.

Lol. Re-adding content that should have been in already but was cut out for some reason is really not hard. If only BioWare would listen to us it could happen before you can say "COOL NEW DLC!!!"

Yes that could happen, it is in the realm of possibility.  That was not what I was referring to in my post.

[Atomic Space Vixen]

khevan wrote...

Atomic Space Vixen wrote...

Oh, I was definitely going for sarcasm in that last post, but as it was neither a trolling post or against the TOS, nor my first post in this thread, I will not have my tone or participation dictated to thank you very much.

Your post did not forwarded your position, it merely served to try to discredit a view opposite to your own in a negative manner.  If that's not trolling, it is closely related.  If you cannot discuss your side of the debate in reasonable tones, that is, indeed your choice, but I also don't have to listen to you.

Exactly. Especially when said post wasn't replying to you.

And if sarcasm is closely related to trolling, the internet's in worse shape than I ever thought...

[Onyx Jaguar]

*responds to ASV's sarcastic remark that he was ignoring*



It really wasn't a rewrite since those characters weren't really there in the first game.



*This is Sparta kicks a polar bear*

[jlb524]

I don't mind if they don't make every character bisexual in the default game that gets shipped, but I do wish they'd make it easier to mod it if desired (PC users). They could add in a line to the .ini file, something like 'RemoveRomanceGenderCheck' and when set to 'true', enables the user to romance anyone regardless of gender.



I would like actual homosexual characters as well, but I don't think that will happen, as it's more likely they'll make bisexuals that can romance both gendered PCs.

[Nordic Einar]

khevan wrote...

Nordic Einar wrote...

Characters interested in xenophilia "coming out" in later games? Character development!

Characters interested in human homosexual relationships "coming out" in later games? DIRTY, DIRTY RETCON!

This is kind of telling.

Dude, drop the offended act.  You're seeing insult where there is none.  People have mentioned that they wanted a Tali same sex relationship, and others have mentioned interet in Garrus.  Xenophilia isn't restricted to the "straight" side of the fence, so get over yourself.

I specifically mentioned that if the authors had opened Garrus and Tali to same sex romances when they opened them up to romances at all I wouldn't have a problem with it, at all.  Since they opened them up to heterosexual relationships only, that's how the "authors of the story" wanted the characters to be, those are the characters we got.  To go back and change what is already in place is a rewrite of the characters, nothing more.  To try to use that to pull an insult towards you is telling.

I'm not insulted, nor am I seeing an insult. Take a few deep breathes - there's this thing used to point out incosistencies called satire? It doesn't necessarily imply malice.

Changing Tali or Garrus (aliens) to suddenly want to be romantically involved (heterosexually, of course) with their human commander is less freaking likely than a previous straight-seeming character coming out of the closet. Seriously - xenophilia requires way more of a stretch than someone being less straight than you thought they were. I am living proof of that fact, and you don't get to just hand wave me away because you don't like it.
 
People who appear straight are sometimes bi. Get over yourself - this happens in real life, and it's probably way more common than an alien wanting to have sexual relations with their heterosexual human counterpart.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for people like yourself or Collider to accept when it happens all the time in real life.