7455 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Nordic Einar wrote...

I'm not sure why this is so hard for people like yourself or Collider to accept when it happens all the time in real life.

This.  It also happens a lot in other forms of entertainment, TV shows, movies, novels, etc.  If the writers decide that someone's sexuality has changed or was finally realised then they can do it and it makes sense.

[Peppard]

jlb524 wrote...

Nordic Einar wrote...

I'm not sure why this is so hard for people like yourself or Collider to accept when it happens all the time in real life.

This.  It also happens a lot in other forms of entertainment, TV shows, movies, novels, etc.  If the writers decide that someone's sexuality has changed or was finally realised then they can do it and it makes sense.

I agree that it can be done, but I also think the writers should at least try to keep in mind the information they have already revealed about specific characters.  It would be odd if suddenly every character Shep's ever met was now openly interested in Shep regardless of the history between that character and Shep, or conversely, if a character who was previously interested suddenly was uninterested because of Shep's gender or species.

   Those 2 extremes aside, I'd say there's room for a storyline introducing some new facets to Shep's relationship to some characters, but the writers would need to address at least a little, how and why that happens.   No more than they had to explain Garrus and Tali, but some explanation.   If you want to call such things retcons, well I quoted the definition earlier and it has 2 contradictory meanings (ie retroactive continuity, and retroactive discontinuity), and ultimately whether something breaks immersion really depends on how well the writers make new information consistent with what they already revealed.    

[sw33ts]

Wow. The turn of this topic and lol and Collider and his retcon, still? Come on.



I said it earlier and I'll say it again. Kaidan, Jack, Tali, Miranda for that matter never "came out" as straight. As a bisexual female, sometimes I don't admit that I've had girlfriends depending on the company but if I should ever come out to this same person...does that mean I'm retconning? This is how I view people "coming out" on Mass Effect.



O_o

[Ryzaki]

Also all I have to say to retcon is this.



Thermal Clips.

[Onyx Jaguar]

So switching the characters to bisexuality would be a gameplay balance choice?

[Ryzaki]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

So switching the characters to bisexuality would be a gameplay balance choice?

Nope but those who protest retcons so loudly should do the same for thermal clips.

Not to mention the bloody thermal clips don't even work in game the way they should according to lore. *

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 mai 2010 - 03:48 .

[FataliTensei]

Ryzaki wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

So switching the characters to bisexuality would be a gameplay balance choice?

Nope but those who protest retcons so loudly should do the same for thermal clips.

Not to mention the bloody thermal clips don't even work in game the way they should according to lore. *

you have to remember as a long as retcon works for someone it's not a retcon lol

people keep calling retcon, even though technically it would just be returning the characters to the way they were originally conceived and even without that taken into account it still wouldn't fit the actual definition of a retcon

[lovgreno]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

You are arguing for something that is NOT going to happen. We should all argue for something that COULD happen.

It could happen, it's Biowares choice not ours. Fine by me, its their game.

What could happen is that Bioware writes in the dialogue for ME 3 that turns characters bisexual.  What I have seen recently are people who want Bioware to add in sort of a highly customized experience to change the characters to their liking.  That is not going to happen.  Could it?  No it really couldn't.  Only if done by Mods, it would complicate the game far too much.

But we are already changing the characters to our liking. For example we have the choice of making Jacob turn his dad in or taking the law into his own hands, talking Wrex from a cynical loner into a corpse or a reformator for his whole race. In that perspective bisexuality isn't a big deal to me.
Bioware are changing their characters and giving us new ways of customising them all the time. A lot changed between ME and ME2. It's not realy up to us to say what is possible or not. Their game and their choice. They won't try to make us all happy but as many of us as possible.
What we can do is to speculate about changes and additions to improve the game. We can give BW a idea of what the players want. We are not building a consensus about what can or will be changed, no one knows that, not even Bioware.
I think we are getting off topic here, so lets not derail things further.

[khevan]

Nordic Einar wrote...

I'm not insulted, nor am I seeing an insult. Take a few deep breathes - there's this thing used to point out incosistencies called satire? It doesn't necessarily imply malice.

Changing Tali or Garrus (aliens) to suddenly want to be romantically involved (heterosexually, of course) with their human commander is less freaking likely than a previous straight-seeming character coming out of the closet. Seriously - xenophilia requires way more of a stretch than someone being less straight than you thought they were. I am living proof of that fact, and you don't get to just hand wave me away because you don't like it.
 
People who appear straight are sometimes bi. Get over yourself - this happens in real life, and it's probably way more common than an alien wanting to have sexual relations with their heterosexual human counterpart.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for people like yourself or Collider to accept when it happens all the time in real life.

I would like to apologize here.  I was starting to get defensive, and I took your post the wrong way.  That being said, I would like to address your post above.

First, I have never attempted to "hand wave you away because I don't like it."  I realize that there are lots and lots of people in real life who, for various reasons, live as a heterosexual when they feel differently.  I also believe, however, that Mass Effect isn't real life.  Characters in any kind of work of fiction must be more clearly defined and limited in many ways, so the audience can understand them.  Authors cannot make characters in a story as complex as real people, because there's too much.  There would be no way to be able to explain the character.  Even in real life, when we talk about people, we "limit" how we define them, so as to more easily explain what we're talking about.  Because of this "limiting" of characters in a narrative, it really is "what you see is what you got" most of the time.  Sometimes, in novels or series of books, a revelation about a certain character happens towards the end, and sometimes it works, because it "fits."  It was either hinted at during earlier parts of the story (even if you didn't know what the hints were about, once the "secret" was revealed you can go back and say "OH!  THAT's what that meant."), or it just makes sense from how the author has portrayed the character throughout the story.  MOST of the time, however, when I see some big "secret" being revealed about a character, I cringe, because it's usually a lame, deus ex machina type of thing.  It's a "rewrite" of the character at the end of the story by the author, to get something in the story to work out how he wanted.  It's bad writing, and I hate that type of writing. 

In Mass Effect, both 1 and 2, we have characters who have not expressed interest in same sex relationships.  Rightly or wrongly, this is an indisputable fact.  For two "books" of the trilogy, the characters have been written as heterosexual, outwardly at least.  Taking what I just wrote above, having certain characters show interest in same sex relationships in Mass Effect 3 is that "big revelation," and I've rarely seen that "big revelation" done well.   I honestly don't trust Bioware to do this well, and so I'd prefer they not try it at all.  Give us new characters who are bisexual/homosexual.  PLEASE give us that, because the MEverse is sorely lacking in this regard.  As a heterosexual, I wouldn't take advantage of the options, but I'd rather see them in the game than not.

***********************************

The above is an explanation of my previous posts, and my views on the topic at hand.  My actual position, however, has undergone a slight change.  I will explain below.

I've actually done some thinking about this today at work, and you have a point about the non-human romances.  However, there has been a history of inter-species romances from the beginning of the series, with Liara, and there is "in game explanation" for why this is.  In my mind, therefore, it isn't such a stretch to think that romances between other species, turian/quarian, whatever, can, and probably did, happen.  So, Garrus and Tali being opened up to romances didn't set off any "HEY!  This is WRONG!" flags in my head.  This is merely my opinion, though, and having thought about it at work like I mentioned before, I've come to the conclusion that other people obviously see it differently, and to them, Garrus and Tali being romanceable is no less of a stretch than what I've been calling a rewrite of certain characters is to me.

Thus, I've basically decided this:  IF Bioware does decide to make certain squadmates open to same sex relationships, I may not like it, per se, but I'd accept it IF it were done the right way.  It must make sense.  Period.  Simply being open to same sex relationships out of the blue in ME3 still feels like a rewrite, instead of characters developing in a certain direction.  It also must be well done.  No dimestore romance novel type dialogue, like there currently is with femshep/Jacob *shudder*  The whole thing needs to be believeable.  Give me these two conditions, and I'd at least accept it as character progression rather than a rewrite. 

Overall, I just want to say that earlier, on my end at least, I felt like the discussion was getting heated, and I don't want that.  I don't want hard feelings or anything of the sort, because I do support same sex romances in the ME series.  They should have been there from the beginning.  I honestly think there should have been a total of 6 LI's in ME1 that we kept going with in ME2, two homosexual, two bisexual, two heterosexual, each orientation being one of each gender.  That way everyone had at least 2 choices, no matter your orientation.  But anyways, I'll end this by saying that overall, I do want what everyone else in this thread wants, I just want it done in a way that makes sense, not simply wave a magic wand and *POOF!* Kaidan is now bisexual!  Is that too much to ask?

Modifié par khevan, 11 mai 2010 - 07:28 .

[Fairhammer]

Khevan , I agree with you but imho, Tali (I've only played femshep), seemed at least interestet in Shep, not in women but maybe in Shep and didn't matter about the gender. And Jack is obviously Bisexual. (At the end, Jack blocked and You can't talk more with Tali about anything else (Let's combine suits, yay).. but I think that was a clumsy rewrite of what they had to be. Open for all... literarly) Same with Ash and Kaidan but they didn't seem to be interested in same sex , even it seems that it was planned earlier. I'm playing now again with MaleShep, to see how it "feels" with the other male members. For me, only Miranda doesn't seem to be interested in FemShepard anyways if we take a closer look at the female crew in ME2.

For ME2 Males, Jacob seems to be "teh priiiizze" for MaleShep, but thats only a thought of mine.

When it is about Tali for samesex in ME 3/ME 2-patch, I wouldn't see any contradictions there.

Maybe Qurians don't take it that serious with that.

[khevan]

Fairhammer wrote...

Khevan , I agree with you but imho, Tali (I've only played femshep), seemed at least interestet in Shep, not in women but maybe in Shep and didn't matter about the gender. And Jack is obviously Bisexual. (At the end, Jack blocked and You can't talk more with Tali about anything else (Let's combine suits, yay).. but I think that was a clumsy rewrite of what they had to be. Open for all... literarly) Same with Ash and Kaidan but they didn't seem to be interested in same sex , even it seems that it was planned earlier. I'm playing now again with MaleShep, to see how it "feels" with the other male members. For me, only Miranda doesn't seem to be interested in FemShepard anyways if we take a closer look at the female crew in ME2.
For ME2 Males, Jacob seems to be "teh priiiizze" for MaleShep, but thats only a thought of mine.
When it is about Tali for samesex in ME 3/ME 2-patch, I wouldn't see any contradictions there.
Maybe Qurians don't take it that serious with that.

I've said a couple of times in this discussion how I've always viewed the Tali-FemShep conversation, but to quickly sum up so you know where I'm coming from, I played ME2 first as a FemShep.  I never had the feeling that the conversation she had about linking suits was an indication that she was sexually attracted to FemShep.  I took it more as her talking about trusting Shep to that level of linking suits, and she got embarrassed because it could also be seen as an offer for intimacy.  I took it as she stuck her foot in her mouth and embarrassed herself.  It was only when I played as a MaleShep that I realized that was the lead in to the romance, but even playing again as FemShep later, I never felt like Tali was flirting.  That, however is my perception of the conversation.  Obviously, alot of people saw it differently, but it's also immaterial, because it's a subjective thing.  The only objective thing we have is that she's not available for a FemShep romance, so, the writers didn't want her to have one, so, she's heterosexual.  IF Bioware changes their minds, and wants to make Tali bisexual, it could be done, but like I wrote in my latest post, it needs to be done right.

As far as Jack is concerned,  I also mentioned that she should have been a LI for a FemShep, given her dialogue that is highly suggestive that she's bisexual.  Does she have any dialogue for a FemShep turning her down?  Or is there nothing else?  I can't remember to be honest.  Don't think I ever really talked to her much on my FemShep playthrus.

[ElitePinecone]

This is a very reasonable condition for making former squadmembers s/s romance options in ME3.



Whether Bioware would go to the effort of implementing it, however, is another matter. Remember what Stanley Woo (from Bioware) said on this thread about a month ago: "I believe that supporters are also asking for additions to the romance options available, and not replacements. As in, 'in addition to the romance we've already seen in Mass Effect, we'd like to have the option of same sex romances for our Shepard.' If this is the case, it's a valid request, so let's please keep this thread as civil and mature as we can."



Apart from a few vague platitudes from Bioware execs when they were pressed in interviews, this is one of the only statements I've seen that has actually addressed the fans who want s/s content.

[Bill569]

I don't have the time to read all the pages, so I'll just say what I'm thinking. I think that gay people have come into that state because of the tragic state of our society today which promotes homosexuality as "normal", although there is nothing normal to it (except of course from people who have hormone problems), however, I respect their choice. Anyway, implementing same sex romance into a game is going too far. Bioware will be accused by the church, by political parties, they might even take the company to court. And it will ****** many players off. Like me for example. And that is because my love interest potentially could have a homosexual relationship. This will make him/her homosexual. Let's take Tali (since the previous post mentioned her) for example. Throughout Mass Effect 1 & 2 she has been completely ethical. Now, I regard homosexuality unethical, therefore if Tali potentially could have a homosexual relationship, that would make her unethical for me, ruining my game. And it will ruin the game of many other players as well.

[Barquiel]

^
I don't know if you're serious or not (I hope not:mellow:)

KOTOR, Dragon Age, Jade Empire, ME1...nobody accused Bioware

[Bill569]

Do not forget the great fuss a sex scene with Liara (the most "provocative" scene was a direct shot at Liara's breast) created back when Mass Effect 1 was released. Just imagine what will happen if the player has the option to have same sax romance.

[Bill569]

Barquiel wrote...

^
I don't know if you're serious or not (I hope not:mellow:)

KOTOR, Dragon Age, Jade Empire, ME1...nobody accused Bioware

I do not know about the other games, but there was not a same sex romance option in Mass Effect 1.

EDIT: And yes, I'm dead serious. I might not even buy Mass Effect 3 if there is a same sex romance option.

Modifié par Bill569, 11 mai 2010 - 08:52 .

[Barquiel]

The player had the option...in Dragon Age



Fox News said nothing

[LiquidGrape]

Bill569 wrote...

Do not forget the great fuss a sex scene with Liara (the most "provocative" scene was a direct shot at Liara's breast) created back when Mass Effect 1 was released. Just imagine what will happen if the player has the option to have same sax romance.

BioWare will be lauded for being a progressive creative company, people of reason won't bat an eyelid, and the ignorant, intolerant contingency will cry out in outrage for about 20 minutes before giving up and buying the game anyway.
Or they'll resort to bible-thumping and give up the franchise. Either way, it wouldn't be a loss.

And the fact of the matter is that Liara was a same sex option. She is female. Do not even attempt to deny that.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 11 mai 2010 - 09:01 .

[Fairhammer]

Bill569 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

^
I don't know if you're serious or not (I hope not:mellow:)

KOTOR, Dragon Age, Jade Empire, ME1...nobody accused Bioware

I do not know about the other games, but there was not a same sex romance option in Mass Effect 1.

EDIT: And yes, I'm dead serious. I might not even buy Mass Effect 3 if there is a same sex romance option.

Are you from the USA and a republican? Sry for personal insult but thats fitting the american cliché ...

Bill569 wrote...

I don't have the time to read all the
pages, so I'll just say what I'm thinking. I think that gay people have
come into that state because of the tragic state of our society today
which promotes homosexuality as "normal", although there is nothing
normal to it (except of course from people who have hormone problems),
however, I respect their choice. Anyway, implementing same sex romance
into a game is going too far. Bioware will be accused by the church, by
political parties, they might even take the company to court. And it
will ****** many players off. Like me for example. And that is because my
love interest potentially could have a homosexual relationship. This
will make him/her homosexual. Let's take Tali (since the previous post
mentioned her) for example. Throughout Mass Effect 1 & 2 she has
been completely ethical. Now, I regard homosexuality unethical,
therefore if Tali potentially could have a homosexual relationship,
that would make her unethical for me, ruining my game. And it will ruin
the game of many other players as well.

QTF
You MUST be from USA, there's no other explenation for this b*ll-sh*t.
There wont be any konsequences at least in Europe... germany has a GAY!!!!!!!!!!! (OMG OH NOEZ!!!!)  foreign secretary. I'm surprised that you didn't get annoyed to be able to play a black female shepard...
sry but this is so ridiculous... srsly... you have problems.

But to be honest, I think you're a troll.....
Because in ME1 and 2 there are SameSex romance options.
ME1 Liara, ME2 Kelly.
lulz
have a nice day

Modifié par Fairhammer, 11 mai 2010 - 09:10 .

[ElitePinecone]

 I know we're not meant to feed the trolls, but...

You're against homosexuality in video games because a romance interest of yours may be changed to bisexual, thus making them 'unethical' and ruining your game. 

If you romanced Tali in ME2, presumably you're playing as a male Shepard. Tali (even if she was suddenly revealed to be bisexual) would still be a valid romance option for your Shepard in any future game. In all likelihood, you'd never even know she was a romance option for a female Shepard - unless you played as a female Shepard and specifically went for these dialogue options. For your gaming experience, playing as a male Shepard, bisexual Tali 'doesn't exist'. She only exists as an opportunity for people that want to pursue this option.

As to your complaint that adding homosexuality to a romance option would make them unethical, let's consider a few facts. 

• Garrus (female romamce option) is the leader of a vigilante squad that routinely carries out torture, extrajudicial justice and revenge killings.
• Jack (male romance option) is a psychopathic murderer with sadistic tendencies and an appetite for violence.
• Miranda (male romance option) is a loyalist for a pro-human terrorist organisation, with no qualms about killing people to advance her goals.
• Thane (female romance option) is an assassin (admittedly a somewhat reluctant one), with a variety of inventive ways to kill people 

Any of these seem slightly unethical?

[Charsen]

Bill569 wrote...

I don't have the time to read all the pages, so I'll just say what I'm thinking. I think that gay people have come into that state because of the tragic state of our society today which promotes homosexuality as "normal", although there is nothing normal to it (except of course from people who have hormone problems), however, I respect their choice. Anyway, implementing same sex romance into a game is going too far. Bioware will be accused by the church, by political parties, they might even take the company to court. And it will ****** many players off. Like me for example. And that is because my love interest potentially could have a homosexual relationship. This will make him/her homosexual. Let's take Tali (since the previous post mentioned her) for example. Throughout Mass Effect 1 & 2 she has been completely ethical. Now, I regard homosexuality unethical, therefore if Tali potentially could have a homosexual relationship, that would make her unethical for me, ruining my game. And it will ruin the game of many other players as well.

No one cares if you buy ME3. Plenty of people are mature enough to deal with it and they will buy it. Just like Fable I and II, Jade Empire and plenty of other games with LGBT content. 

Grow up or GTFO.

[Lisa]

I have read some of this, and just to give my opinion, I would gladly create a 4th (Female) Shepard in ME1 and bring her into ME2 just to romance Jack. I have never been with a woman, but in a video game, why not? Jack is hot, way better than Liara in ME1.

[Bill569]

ElitePinecone wrote...

If you romanced Tali in ME2, presumably you're playing as a male Shepard. Tali (even if she was suddenly revealed to be bisexual) would still be a valid romance option for your Shepard in any future game. In all likelihood, you'd never even know she was a romance option for a female Shepard - unless you played as a female Shepard and specifically went for these dialogue options. For your gaming experience, playing as a male Shepard, bisexual Tali 'doesn't exist'. She only exists as an opportunity for people that want to pursue this option.

Ok, let me give you an example: I am man . If I romance another man that would make me gay. If I romanced a woman , that would make me bisexual, not straight, because I could potentially romance a man.

[LiquidGrape]

Bill569 wrote...

Ok, let me give you an example: I am man . If I romance another man that would make me gay. If I romanced a woman , that would make me bisexual, not straight, because I could potentially romance a man.

So...you mean to say that on a fundamentally biological level, every human being is a potential bisexual?
Hey, we agree on something!

[Bill569]

Fairhammer wrote...

Bill569 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

^
I don't know if you're serious or not (I hope not:mellow:)

KOTOR, Dragon Age, Jade Empire, ME1...nobody accused Bioware

I do not know about the other games, but there was not a same sex romance option in Mass Effect 1.

EDIT: And yes, I'm dead serious. I might not even buy Mass Effect 3 if there is a same sex romance option.

Are you from the USA and a republican? Sry for personal insult but thats fitting the american cliché ...

Bill569 wrote...

I don't have the time to read all the
pages, so I'll just say what I'm thinking. I think that gay people have
come into that state because of the tragic state of our society today
which promotes homosexuality as "normal", although there is nothing
normal to it (except of course from people who have hormone problems),
however, I respect their choice. Anyway, implementing same sex romance
into a game is going too far. Bioware will be accused by the church, by
political parties, they might even take the company to court. And it
will ****** many players off. Like me for example. And that is because my
love interest potentially could have a homosexual relationship. This
will make him/her homosexual. Let's take Tali (since the previous post
mentioned her) for example. Throughout Mass Effect 1 & 2 she has
been completely ethical. Now, I regard homosexuality unethical,
therefore if Tali potentially could have a homosexual relationship,
that would make her unethical for me, ruining my game. And it will ruin
the game of many other players as well.

QTF
You MUST be from USA, there's no other explenation for this b*ll-sh*t.
There wont be any konsequences at least in Europe... germany has a GAY!!!!!!!!!!! (OMG OH NOEZ!!!!)  foreign secretary. I'm surprised that you didn't get annoyed to be able to play a black female shepard...
sry but this is so ridiculous... srsly... you have problems.

But to be honest, I think you're a troll.....
Because in ME1 and 2 there are SameSex romance options.
ME1 Liara, ME2 Kelly.
lulz
have a nice day

No, I'm from Greece. Also I'm not a troll. I just do not want same sex romance options in Mass Effect 3. Anyway, it's obvious I won't change your mind (not that I thought I could). Have a nice day.