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[Bill569]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Bill569 wrote...

Ok, let me give you an example: I am man . If I romance another man that would make me gay. If I romanced a woman , that would make me bisexual, not straight, because I could potentially romance a man.

So...you mean to say that on a fundamentally biological level, every human being is a potential bisexual?
Hey, we agree on something!

No, that would happen ONLY IF I accepted homosexuality and potentially could have a same sex romance.

[ElitePinecone]

Bill569 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

If you romanced Tali in ME2, presumably you're playing as a male Shepard. Tali (even if she was suddenly revealed to be bisexual) would still be a valid romance option for your Shepard in any future game. In all likelihood, you'd never even know she was a romance option for a female Shepard - unless you played as a female Shepard and specifically went for these dialogue options. For your gaming experience, playing as a male Shepard, bisexual Tali 'doesn't exist'. She only exists as an opportunity for people that want to pursue this option.

Ok, let me give you an example: I am man . If I romance another man that would make me gay. If I romanced a woman , that would make me bisexual, not straight, because I could potentially romance a man.

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

In your situation, if you romanced Tali (as a male Shepard) it would be exactly the same as any other romance option. There would be no changes, except that if you played as a female Shepard Tali would also be a romance option. In all likelihood the dialogue would be mostly the same. You never even have to interact with same-sex content, unless (in the Tali situation) you played as a female Shepard and talked to Tali, specifically choosing the romance dialogue options (which we've already said should be made a different colour so players can find them easily). If you didn't want to see same-sex content in a videogame, you don't have to. It's only there as an option for those people  that do. 

[lovgreno]

Charsen wrote...

No one cares if you buy ME3. Plenty of people are mature enough to deal with it and they will buy it. Just like Fable I and II, Jade Empire and plenty of other games with LGBT content. 

Grow up or GTFO.

Bill569 have right to have his own opinions about this just as everyone else. You are not in any position to tell him to grow up. As I understand it the point of this discussion is to come up with ideas about how you could include LBGT content in a way that as many people as possible can accept. This of course includes Bill569.

Modifié par lovgreno, 11 mai 2010 - 09:21 .

[LiquidGrape]

I agree, lovgreno; only it's hard to debate with someone who considers our goal "unethical".

It's not even a scientific objection. It holds no ground whatsoever.

[Bill569]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Bill569 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

If you romanced Tali in ME2, presumably you're playing as a male Shepard. Tali (even if she was suddenly revealed to be bisexual) would still be a valid romance option for your Shepard in any future game. In all likelihood, you'd never even know she was a romance option for a female Shepard - unless you played as a female Shepard and specifically went for these dialogue options. For your gaming experience, playing as a male Shepard, bisexual Tali 'doesn't exist'. She only exists as an opportunity for people that want to pursue this option.

Ok, let me give you an example: I am man . If I romance another man that would make me gay. If I romanced a woman , that would make me bisexual, not straight, because I could potentially romance a man.

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

In your situation, if you romanced Tali (as a male Shepard) it would be exactly the same as any other romance option. There would be no changes, except that if you played as a female Shepard Tali would also be a romance option. In all likelihood the dialogue would be mostly the same. You never even have to interact with same-sex content, unless (in the Tali situation) you played as a female Shepard and talked to Tali, specifically choosing the romance dialogue options (which we've already said should be made a different colour so players can find them easily). If you didn't want to see same-sex content in a videogame, you don't have to. It's only there as an option for those people  that do. 

 
Let me give you another example. If I want to kill my neighbour but in the end I don't not manage to, then this does not mean that I could not potentially kill him. This makes me a potential killer.

Modifié par Bill569, 11 mai 2010 - 09:30 .

[LiquidGrape]

Bill569 wrote...
Let me give you another example. If I want to kill my neighbour but in the end I don't not manage to, then this does not mean that I could not potentially kill him. This makes me a potential killer on purpose.

You're seriously making murder an analogy for sexuality?

[Bill569]

Of course not. I'm giving an example.

[Bill569]

LiquidGrape wrote...

I agree, lovgreno; only it's hard to debate with someone who considers our goal "unethical".
It's not even a scientific objection. It holds no ground whatsoever.

The scientific objection is simple: Homosexuality in abnormal. Humans cannot reproduce through homosexual relationships, nor a homosexual society can exist.

[lovgreno]

LiquidGrape wrote...

I agree, lovgreno; only it's hard to debate with someone who considers our goal "unethical".
It's not even a scientific objection. It holds no ground whatsoever.

He have the right to use the arguments he thinks are relevant as well. Oh well, you can't find a consensus with everyone. Still worth a try of course.

[ElitePinecone]

I fail to see how intending to commit murder (and failing) is the same as having the potential to romance somebody of the same gender.



In your scenario above, you chose to intend to kill your neighbour. In a video game with same-sec romance options, you can also choose to avoid, or pursue, any number of romances with your squadmates. The point is that you aren't locked in to any decision.



Equating a potential outcome that you can avoid (choosing a same-sex romance) with an intended one (wanting to kill someone) doesn't make any sense.



If you have concerns with same-sex content, then avoid the game if it's in there. But I don't see your analogy that giving the potential for something implies that the entire thing is compromised.

[Bill569]

Gay people can of course be good people, and often show great affection towards each other. But, being gay in not normal. It is one of the many wounds of our society. Why do people become gay in the first place? If it is a hormone problem, then they are not to blame; they were born that way. But on purpose? Why? What is the point of being abnormal? What are the ethics of going against nature? This has happened because of the media promotion of gay people these days, especially in the worst kind of business, show business.



I would like to point out here, that I do not regard homosexuality unethical due to religious beliefs. After all, I'm an atheist.

[IngoLoema]

Bill569 wrote...
The scientific objection is simple: Homosexuality in abnormal. Humans cannot reproduce through homosexual relationships, nor a homosexual society can exist.

Then you have only sex, when you want to get a child ?^^

I don't know what's wrong with a s/s-Content, cause it's about love not about porn, but I think your hatred should be treated by your local doctor.

Modifié par IngoLoema, 11 mai 2010 - 09:50 .

[Syledir]

I'd like to adress a few points here:

1. Changing the NPC's sexual orientation is bad writing.

I thought about the movie "Kinsey" with Liam Neeson. There his character said that when he started to study the sexual behaviour of men and women he was sure of being a 0 or maybe 1 (0 standing for exclusively heterosexuall and 6 standing for exclusively homosexuall). Over the time it turned out to be a 3. That serves as an example that the sexual orientation or preference of a person can change. It's not unrealistic.

Creating a hole new romance plot for each NPC, "only" to create a believable evolution from heterosexuall NPC to bisexuall NPC will cost a lot of money, so that option would only stand with a romance DLC that needs to be bought or a new Add On like Dragon Age Awakening.

DLC: A party for the victorious, who defeated the Collectors. After the pressure of the suicide mission is gone people might realize that life is to short to be wasted and might see Shepard in another light. Remember only because Miranda admitted that she was in a relationship with Jacob doesn't mean she has never been with a woman. Only because she didn't say that she is bisexuall, doesn't mean that she isn't. I don't know about you, but I don't tell anyone of my sexual preference, the first time we meet, or even later. Why should I? A good reason would be that she didn't want to be distracted during the Collectors crisis. But now it's out of the way.

Add On: Even more possibilities. Shepard meets Kaidan and finally confesses his love. Kaidan asks for time to think about it. In the middle of the game Kaidan says that he thought about it and he doesn't as much as he originally thought. He is willing to give it a try. End of the game you get your romance and your love scene.

Just a few ideas of mine.

2. Create homosexuall characters for Mass Effect 3

I don't like the idea. If it would have been done in Mass Effect 2 and 2 NPCs were hetero, 2 were bi and 2 were homosexuall, we would have the dilemma of who would be the hetero and who would be the homosexuall NPC. Just imagine Miranda as the homosexuall NPC. How many people would cry out and demand a change? No, forget I asked. In order to satisfy as many as possible, every NPC should be made romanceable for either MShep or FemShep.

Still, some people feel uncomfortable if they realise that , Jacob for example, has the hots for you. Others might believe its to much of a character change and would damage the contuinity of the game. That's why I believe Shepard must allways be the one to start the romance. Never the NPC. Secondly the player must always know when he or she is entering the romance plot. Coloured text seems to be prefered solution.

3. I played as a FemShep and Tali was interested in a romantic way.

I agree. Not because of wishfull thinking, but because of what can be seen. khevan said that NPC's must be more defined, so the player cannot misunderstand. I agree with that. There is an indicator when a female NPC is interested in your character. It looks like a sexy pose. Sun Lian did it in Jade Empire. The secretary of Shiara did it. Kelly did it. Every time you see it you know. She wants you. Now play as a femshep, try to romance Tali (I know it won't work) and see what she does...

4. Is the sexy pose a solution?

For those who oppose the coloured text because just the mere sight of a possible gay content makes them uncomfortable, I had the idea of a "sexual preference check". During character creation were you decide for a male or female, soldier or biotic, you have to decide for your sexual preference too. In the game only the NPC's of your sexual preference would be able to have a romance with you. A few people sendt me a message. They thought it was degrading.

But I've got another idea recently. What if your Shepard will never be able to romance any NPCs, unless you strike the "sexy pose" the NPCs use frequently, during a conversation with your love interest. Let's say you'll have to press both the LT and RT on your pad. That way no one could say, I unlocked gay content by accident. That way your intentions would be clear and no one would think of it as degrading... I hope.

[ElitePinecone]

While I appreciate your rights to your opinion, this topic is not to argue for or against the abnormality of homosexuality. There are other places that this argument is going on.



It is strictly to talk about the ways in which same-sex romances can be implemented and what form they should take. Many previous topics have been closed or shut down due to arguments over homosexuality, and people becoming very angry.



With this in mind, please reconsider posting in this topic if you are only here to talk about homosexuality.

[lovgreno]

Bill569 wrote...
The scientific objection is simple: Homosexuality in abnormal. Humans cannot reproduce through homosexual relationships, nor a homosexual society can exist.

That is true if we assume that every human have to have biological children and breeding are the only reason to have sex. But I'm not trying to make you change your mind. If your opinions works for you that is fine by me. Anyway accepting homosexuality or not it's not the point of this thread anyway if I understood it correctly.
However I would like to know if you have any idea about how to make a game that both those who want LBGT content and those who don't want it that as many as possible can accept. Some have suggested a LBGT DLC for example.
We want many people to enjoy this great game right? Biowave certanly does, they need money from all of us.

[Bill569]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I fail to see how intending to commit murder (and failing) is the same as having the potential to romance somebody of the same gender.

In your scenario above, you chose to intend to kill your neighbour. In a video game with same-sec romance options, you can also choose to avoid, or pursue, any number of romances with your squadmates. The point is that you aren't locked in to any decision.

Equating a potential outcome that you can avoid (choosing a same-sex romance) with an intended one (wanting to kill someone) doesn't make any sense.

If you have concerns with same-sex content, then avoid the game if it's in there. But I don't see your analogy that giving the potential for something implies that the entire thing is compromised.

Ok, let me explain this further. I walk down the street. There are two cases: 1. I turn left and I see an man getting hit by a car and I do not call the ambulance, which means that I'm a bad person. 2. I turn right and nothing happens. In the end of both cases I'm home. Let's say that the 2nd case actually happened. I'm still a bad person because potentially I wouldn't have called the ambulance.

[ElitePinecone]

Syledir wrote...

But I've got another idea recently. What if your Shepard will never be able to romance any NPCs, unless you strike the "sexy pose" the NPCs use frequently, during a conversation with your love interest. Let's say you'll have to press both the LT and RT on your pad. That way no one could say, I unlocked gay content by accident. That way your intentions would be clear and no one would think of it as degrading... I hope.

While this is an imaginative idea, it would be extremely difficult to implement and probably not a very effective solution. People would press the buttons by mistake, or 'miss' the chance, or grumble that it's too complicated. 

I think that if it's gone about in the right way, the coloured romance dialogue is a great idea. To ensure that nobody is horrendously offended, the 'opening' romance dialogue option could be something non-threatening (even non-sexual). The pink text alone, if properly advertised to the player, would  ensure that people know that it's a romantic option. Thus they could avoid the coloured dialogue for any characters they didn't want to. 

[Bill569]

lovgreno wrote...

That is true if we assume that every human have to have biological children and breeding are the only reason to have sex. 

It's immoral to twist human nature. 

lovgreno wrote...


However I would like to know if you have any idea about how to make a game that both those who want LBGT content and those who don't want it that as many as possible can accept. Some have suggested a LBGT DLC for example.
We want many people to enjoy this great game right? Biowave certanly does, they need money from all of us.

Definitely, an LBGT DLC would be better from having a same sex romance from the beginning of the game. A clever plot twist would also be nice. Something that will change the biological nature of your love interest.

[LiquidGrape]

Bill569 wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

That is true if we assume that every human have to have biological children and breeding are the only reason to have sex. 

It's immoral to twist human nature.

Define human nature.
Define moral.

[ElitePinecone]

Guys, this really is not the place for this discussion. Go and argue over private messages, if you have to.



I would hate for all the good ideas in this thread to be shut down, which is what's going to happen if this gets out of hand (as they tend to do).

[Bill569]

Human nature does not need to be defined. It is our nature. And clearly, being gay is against human nature. It is difficult to define moral, mostly because every person has it's own set of values.

[LiquidGrape]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Guys, this really is not the place for this discussion. Go and argue over private messages, if you have to.

I would hate for all the good ideas in this thread to be shut down, which is what's going to happen if this gets out of hand (as they tend to do).

Good point. I'll yield for the sake of the thread.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 11 mai 2010 - 10:20 .

[Bill569]

Fine. You are right. Sorry for interrupting your discussion.

[Syledir]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Guys, this really is not the place for this discussion. Go and argue over private messages, if you have to.

I would hate for all the good ideas in this thread to be shut down, which is what's going to happen if this gets out of hand (as they tend to do).

I concur.

[Charsen]

Bill569 wrote...

Human nature does not need to be defined. It is our nature. And clearly, being gay is against human nature. It is difficult to define moral, mostly because every person has it's own set of values.

There is nothing more human than the ability to love.